my thoughts on the tanks

[arbosch]

Look what you want is that you have a primary classes (warrior, clerics, wizzards etc.) and secondary class which are less powerfull but have more power out of there role. That is what you call balance. They give up power and get other powers.

I simple dont call this balance because this system dont work in EQ. You have jobs to do and how good you do this job is the part where you see how usefull you are. If the job is allways better done from specialist there simple dont exist a need for the secondary classes. You berhaps think that is the way EQ should work and if the designer think this berhaps to. But that is not how EQ worked the last 5 years.

And you can keep your comments about that i search the godstatus. If i search the godstatus i will try to get the stuns spells upgraded that i total dominate every warrior for every content where stuns work. Stuns are like defensiv a tool which scale up with the mobs dps. You only have 3 minutes of glory with defensiv. I can keep the glory up the full time if stuns work. Stuns will not be a balanceable tools. I allso dont think that it work to balance out defensiv with stuns. Both are unbalanceable and this dont create balance. So the best way to create balance is to remove both tools and balance it right.

On pvp server it is not smart to 2box characters. It is a little hard to pvp with 2 characters. Allso we dont really like it to have log in warrior, clerics or other classes. Simple because there should never be a need for it to log them in. We do it when it is needed, but it dont have to like us. So it is better to have a real knight playing then someone which move 'arbosch' arround.

Arbosch Bloodforge

[Abynormal777]

Originally Posted by arbosch

Look what you want is that you have a primary classes (warrior, clerics, wizzards etc.) and secondary class which are less powerfull but have more power out of there role. That is what you call balance. They give up power and get other powers.

I simple dont call this balance because this system dont work in EQ. You have jobs to do and how good you do this job is the part where you see how usefull you are. If the job is allways better done from specialist there simple dont exist a need for the secondary classes. You berhaps think that is the way EQ should work and if the designer think this berhaps to. But that is not how EQ worked the last 5 years.

Just because a given class isn't the best at one particular aspect of the game doesn't mean it's not a useful addition in most raid and group settings. Think about druids for a second. They are not the best at anything, yet they are very useful as secondary classes in a variety of roles. If you only want healing, clerics are better. If you only want dps, wizards are better. If you want CC, enchies are better. But, if you want a class that can perform a variety of roles, druids beat all 3 of those classes hands down.

A strategy that is based on the principle that the only way to balance classes is to have everyone be a specialist in one area isn't realistic given the number of classes in EQ.

The strategy of having a few specialist classes and a bunch of hybrid classes is the only viable option with the number of classes in EQ. This is also the strategy that (IMHO) has been successfully employed ever since EQ was released. Yes, there have been hiccups along the way (sometimes due to class issues, sometimes content issues), but overall this strategy has worked quite well - otherwise the game wouldn't still be here today.

[Semp]

Originally Posted by Arbosch

On pvp server it is not smart to 2box characters. It is a little hard to pvp with 2 characters.

Forgive me for saying this oh mighty and powerful zekker, but if you are only logging them on in a raid setting for nothing other than follow you around and buff, who cares if he dies if pvp happens? The point is, your guild wants more paladins, because people like you sniffle and hide and gripe and bitch and moan and etc etc so you don't play your class, hurting your guild. If all they wanted a paladin for was to be a brell bitch I doubt they'd have their desireabiltiy at medium, put it at low. You are bitching about not being able to tank ground breaking content when your character hasn't even been used in months? Maybe I'm not endgame but when I was in a guild breaking into elementals we had some pretty well geared paladins, equivalent gear to the warriors and able to tank anything we needed save brutal mobs, so you obviously can't be complaining about that aspect of it. I've seen paladins less geared than you successfully tank sewers trials, so you can't be complaining about that aspect of it. You let your account run out on 03.08.2004, and your guild just beat Ikkinz 4 on June 2, 2004... so you can't be complaining much about any of the KT+ content. The only 2 places that I can think of that you might have such a problem with is Time and Tipt/Vxed. Now, I know that Paladins perform well in time, and have a number of encounters where they prove useful, though I'll admit I haven't raided there yet, if there is anything contradictory to what I said please feel free to inform me. And the Tipt/Vxed trials were fixxed and from the tone of many SOE posts I"ve seen they will probably be veering away from single group flagging content. Though I do like the idea of having the choice between one group content and raid ala Rondo vs. Sewers. I'm just having a hard time understanding what it is you are having such a problem with... as a ranger I can tank anything but nameds in PoE, which I've seen Knights do successfully, I've tanked sewer trials, Hard LDoN, and Tipt named before. Granted none of this is end game/cutting edge stuff, but its things that many many people have access to, and stuff that Arbosch would have access to. You are simply undergeared for the content that you are referring to, and, moreover, you have in fact admitted to and stated that you quit playing over 4 months ago, along with the majority of paladins (who are also hurting in the gear department when compared to content), so you really have no 1st hand frame of reference. Your guild wants more knights, so they consider them needed moderatly, what is your problem? I challenge you with this, if every class should have its own job that its best at, tell me what you would propose for each class, I want specifics too, though I doubt you'll take the time to do this. Anyways, I'm late for dinner.

[arbosch]

Originally Posted by Semp

Forgive me for saying this oh mighty and powerful zekker, but if you are only logging them on in a raid setting for nothing other than follow you around and buff, who cares if he dies if pvp happens? The point is, your guild wants more paladins, because people like you sniffle and hide and gripe and bitch and moan and etc etc so you don't play your class, hurting your guild.

Well you should read me postings. First i am not an mighty and powerful zekker. I started on vallon because i want kill dark races as paladin. Not becuase i am kwel and owne this or that. I allso know that pvp in EQ is the worst way to handle pvp. I dont need skill. The class i play and the gear i have make me simple superior to 95% of the players which play on this server.

The problem i have is simple. At the moment the balance isnt that bad. But why isnt it that bad? Simple because they lowered the mobs dps general and removed defensiv on groupecontent which are rewarding (flag, items etc.). The remove from defensiv made this game more or less balanced at the moment. But the way the removed defenisv is a workarround. If in OOW you have single groupe stuff which is rewarding and should be a challenge for a groupe with knight and warrior it is simple not balanceable. You can not balance it the way defensiv work. This unbalance will get even worser and will get knights more and more troubles to get there offtanking job. Simple because the gap between a defensiv warrior and a knight is growing and growing.

Arbosch Bloodforge

[Semp]

Originally Posted by Arbosch

Both are unbalanceable and this dont create balance. So the best way to create balance is to remove both tools and balance it right.

Originally Posted by Arbosch

The problem i have is simple. At the moment the balance isnt that bad. But why isnt it that bad? Simple because they lowered the mobs dps general and removed defensiv on groupecontent which are rewarding (flag, items etc.). The remove from defensiv made this game more or less balanced at the moment. But the way the removed defenisv is a workarround. If in OOW you have single groupe stuff which is rewarding and should be a challenge for a groupe with knight and warrior it is simple not balanceable. You can not balance it the way defensiv work. This unbalance will get even worser and will get knights more and more troubles to get there offtanking job. Simple because the gap between a defensiv warrior and a knight is growing and growing.

So, you are saying here that the only real problem is 1 group content as far as defensive goes. Its already been stated many times that SOE is thinking that single group required encounters are a bad idea for OOW; furthermore, if they do put them in, then they can just as easily make the boss mobs of said encounters defensive immune, just like Tipt. There is no reason whatsoever by your reasoning that Defensive needs to be removed from the game. You are talking in circles, and I think everyone knows and realizes it but you. You avoid the fact that you aren't playing anymore and thus can't have any first hand knowledge about which you speak. Forgive the abrasiveness in assuming all zekkers are morons, I've just seen it as being all too common in serverwide channels, I let myself slip and the ignorance of stereotyping take over on that one. I apologize. You still didn't explain why two boxxing in a raid environment is such a bad idea. You still didn't explain, in any real concrete fashion, why your guild is looking for Paladins when they have you that refuses to play your character. Like I said, you avoid the issues that you don't have a solid answer too and which won't help your cause, and continue talking in circles. You must understand that you are fighting a losing battle here. Hell, the only reason I even post anymore is cuz my dad's comp is too crappy to play EQ effectively, so all I'm really able to do is scan forums, you just seem to not get it. There was already a 27(?) page post going over this exact same thing, I suggest you read it, if you haven't already, and realize that you aren't going to get anywhere with this issue as long as you continue to ask for the same thing. Your arguments aren't changing anyone's opinions and/or stance.

[Phantron]

If single group contents are really such a big problem they could just make every boss you've to beat hit for exactly 500 damage and never miss unless a special defense skill check is successful (riposte/dodge/parry). No way to ever use any defensive discs besides Furious line. And by the way, there are mobs that behave like I described at least in part, like the Kyv named in the Qinimi 18 group event, Custodian of Righteousness in Ikkinz, or Anuek named in Txevu.

The fact that this isn't done leads me to believe this isn't really a problem, but if it is, the tools exist to fix it without needing to change anything fundamental.

[Ruges]

Still going to up set clerics about giving other classes better healing. This is like the clerics sugesting Palidens get more defensive skills, and do nothing to thier healing power.