my thoughts on the tanks

[Omnus]

I try to help out my guilds tanks as much as I can. I spend alot of time reading the boards and try to get a better idea of the numbers so I can give sound advice when I am asked. Recently a paladin inquired about which aa's to do first. The paladin friend got a good shield and a good one hander, so I was trying to see what would be best for him. I noticed the double attack aa work only for 2handers. Started to seem to me that sony wants paladins to be tank/healing/offense in that order. Maybe this is old news to most but just my new impressions.

Anyway, I started thinking of some general ideas do balance out the needs of the tanks without infringing on the unique design of each. I don't feel warriors need an extra amount of improvement, just the normal every class gets better with a new expansion sort of shit. Although Knights have some specific needs that need to be filled.

Paladins
First I think paladins need 2 new lines of healing spells. Both faster casting but about their ussual mana/hp ratio. One that is heal self only. Just to simplify healing yourself while tanking. A second line of spells that is heal target's target. So a paladin can maintain dps and cast heals when other classes take agro or be a reasonable backup healer choice while still maintaining dps. Which with the laa, hott I can see this adding alot more usefullness to have paladin in a normal group.

Holy Fortitude : Give paladins a version of fortitude, duration 2 ticks, re-use time 1 hour. I thought fortitude would be better for paladins so it can be used when they are rampage tank. But this should be an aa, that they have to buy.

Shadow Knights
Shadowknights unique spell casting style seems somewhat passed by recently. So think one aspect that should return to shadow knights is that they inpsire fear. So I have 2 ideas for spells. 1: Submit, fast casting mez, with the side effect that the mob sits down and recovers mana faster and regens HP faster, unresestable, re-use time 5 minutes. The idea being that the mob kneels to the shadowknight. 2: Short duration fear/snare spells. 1 tick fear with 95% snare, -300 magic resist or so. BUt with re-use time of 3 minutes or so. A fear that is useful in grouping, but not game breaking. Just something to help with mitigating damage spikes

Simple spell changes should include faster FD and faster lifetaps.

Hate's Resilliance: Give shadow knights a furious style disc, duration 2 ticks, re-use time 1 hour. I thought shadow knights should be the more offensive of the 2 two knights thus have autoriposte for building agro and offense, but does not have the advantage of avoiding rampage etc. This wuld be an aa, they have to buy.




I think with this kinda stuff in mind warriors wouldn't lose there main tank role. Knights get some utility they can use in the high end grouping. Also giving there things to do for when multiple tanks are in the same group. I don't know how are these thoughts to everyone else? I know this is the warrior boards, my thoughts are just that knights have lost the usefullness of some of their high end spell casting, but that can be fixed without needing to nerf/steal defensive.

[Lathen]

Those are some cool ideas, Omnus. I'll be curious to see what Inferna and company think.

[Silkarn]

I would like to see the duration on the /discs raised maybe 4 ticks for pally and 3 for SKs with lower reuse say between 5-8 min for both, but other than that sounds good.

or even, for SKs only of course

/disc heresay

duration 30 seconds, reuse 8 min
15% damage mitigation
15% less DPS
5% of each individual attack that actually hits the SK is returned to target, this acts as a DS, does not activate Intense hatred.
SK is silenced for duration of /disc


IE if mob hits you for 1000 while no disc is up and you hit for 300, with the disc you are hit for 850, you hit fro 255, and the disc (activated DS if you will) hits for 43.

I see this as something rather SK like, a DS + small mitigation, but not long enough to really long enough to make SK the choice for raid bosses, but nice to drop in if sh*t hits the fan untill another War can get in (if using transitions or what not). The DS scales according to the DMG done, so if the SK gets hit for 3500, yes they get a "free" hit for 175, but how long will any knight last if DBL/Triple/Quad 3500 is incoming?


Any thoughts?

[Omnus]

NO, they are not defensive. They are just longer reuse time versions of furious and fortitude. Do not bring mitigation discs into this. There are 100 pages of defensive arguements, these are specific ideas, that include spell changes and giving a hour reuse time version of furious to shadowknights, and giving a 1hour reuse to time version of fortitude for paladins.

For a warrior fortitude stops all melee damage from every angle including ramapage and flurry for 12 seconds, with a resuse time if 40 minutes. MY suggestions was that this be giving to paladins ina form of an aa that has a re use time of 1 hour.

For a warrior furious makes the char riposte every attack, for 12 seconds with a re-use time of 40 minutes. riposte cannot block rampage or flurry. MY suggestions was that this be giving to shadow knights in a form of an aa that has a re use time of 1 hour.

I am opposed to any form of defensive being given to knights.

[Silkarn]

I realize your proposal is not defensive disc. I understand the arguments quite well. I respect that this is your thread and thus I will drop my suggestion in this thread. I do wonder why though you would want a longer resue for knights on the discs you suggest though, surely they are not so overpwering as to require a 1 hour reuse for a 12 second disc? What about 3 ticks for SKs, 4 for pallys, 15 min resuse?

[Omnus]

The main reason they should have those discs is because rangers and rogues have one. There is no reason knights shouldn't. But rangers and rogues all have the disc at 72 minues reuse time, which gets droped down to about an hour at 65. So knights should have it at about the same time.

Warriors have alot of discs and will run out of endurance before useing them all. The only real set back for a knight useing the disc is limited by the reuse time, as there endurance is not used alot.

If warriors get 2 ticks 40 minute reuse time, there is no reason to make knights better versions of the discs.

[lokkak]

Originally Posted by Silkarn

I would like to see the duration on the /discs raised maybe 4 ticks for pally and 3 for SKs with lower reuse say between 5-8 min for both, but other than that sounds good.

I like Omnus's suggestion.

I think Silkarn is insane. That disc would put every other warrior out of business. I am shocked a sane person would suggest something like that.

[lokkak]

Originally Posted by Silkarn

I realize your proposal is not defensive disc. I understand the arguments quite well. I respect that this is your thread and thus I will drop my suggestion in this thread. I do wonder why though you would want a longer resue for knights on the discs you suggest though, surely they are not so overpwering as to require a 1 hour reuse for a 12 second disc? What about 3 ticks for SKs, 4 for pallys, 15 min resuse?

Because it would make you gods.

[shadowedspawn]

I like them espically the idea of faster lifetaps. I am not sure how well monks would like it if SK's had a faster casting FD. Death's Peace is a 1 sec cast w/ a 1.5 second recast as it is now. If you were to make it faster casting you would also have to short the recast time. Say the cast time was dropped to .5, then the recast should also be changed to 1.0.

Dropping it to that would save ME a ton of hassle on pulling Hard LDoN's when it gets bad

P.S. I also like the mez idea and its not that far off the mark as one of our parent classes gets a mez type spell.

[Chania]

That fear/snare idea was proposed as an SK answer to the stuns Paladins get. I like it, very SKish, it returns Fear to our arsenal somewhat in a way that isn't dumb like the old fear was.

[Silkarn]

Lokkan I really don't see that as overpowering but then again I have been away from the game a bit so. Could you elaborate please?

[Duchess Inferna]

Originally Posted by Silkarn

Lokkan I really don't see that as overpowering but then again I have been away from the game a bit so. Could you elaborate please?

The only thing I want at this point is a DI bump up one level and warriors get another one level increase and I riposte disk simililar to what rangers have as far as the duration but with a shorter reuse time maybe 20 minutes or so this is all I think I really need.

The code is already in the game, its simple to implement and it does not take anyones role away.

[Crimson]

Shadow Knights
Shadowknights unique spell casting style seems somewhat passed by recently. So think one aspect that should return to shadow knights is that they inpsire fear. So I have 2 ideas for spells. 1: Submit, fast casting mez, with the side effect that the mob sits down and recovers mana faster and regens HP faster, unresestable, re-use time 5 minutes. The idea being that the mob kneels to the shadowknight. 2: Short duration fear/snare spells. 1 tick fear with 95% snare, -300 magic resist or so. BUt with re-use time of 3 minutes or so. A fear that is useful in grouping, but not game breaking. Just something to help with mitigating damage spikes

Simple spell changes should include faster FD and faster lifetaps.

Hate's Resilliance: Give shadow knights a furious style disc, duration 2 ticks, re-use time 1 hour. I thought shadow knights should be the more offensive of the 2 two knights thus have autoriposte for building agro and offense, but does not have the advantage of avoiding rampage etc. This wuld be an aa, they have to buy.

Lifetaps are dead, been dead, rotting in a hole in some third world country, give it up.

Faster FD is what we are asking for, hotkey AA thanks.
I still stand by the point that if Im going to be tanking worse than you, I should taunt better, been this way since release, shouldnt change, your 3 minute refresh is laughable for any type of aggro spell that I would even think about memming. Now if you want to go ahead and add that 0 second stun to our terrors with low mana cost and almost instant cast time, then Id approve of your damage mitigation spells, might want to add a debuff icon so we dont get shadowknights using it in rotation.

30 second duration, 30 minute reuse riposite disc. No drop, I have enough AA to catch up on thank you. Dropped in tier 4 PoP or higher. Duration and refresh brought into consideration that hey, I have one disc to mitigatate damage, and not only will it not scale, but it pales in comparsion to the aggro generation and duration of warrior mitigation discs on seperate timers.

[Duchess Inferna]

Originally Posted by Chania

That fear/snare idea was proposed as an SK answer to the stuns Paladins get. I like it, very SKish, it returns Fear to our arsenal somewhat in a way that isn't dumb like the old fear was.

Only problem I see with this is that most of the single group named I am dealing with are immune to snare

[lokkak]

Originally Posted by Duchess Inferna

The only thing I want at this point is a DI bump up one level and warriors get another one level increase and I riposte disk simililar to what rangers have as far as the duration but with a shorter reuse time maybe 20 minutes or so this is all I think I really need.

The code is already in the game, its simple to implement and it does not take anyones role away.

I would support a DI increase if warriors were also increased. You mean -2DI for warrior and -1DI for sk/pal? I support that. I also support +1DI for non tanks (the other 13 classes) which would do the same thing, but better.

I support a parry/riposte ability, but I think you need to weight the duration and recast. If the recast is 20 minutes the duration needs to be 1 tick. I think SoE would agree, because I have seen posts by devs saying these type of abilities must be limited because they are very powerful. I don't see it very likely a 3 or 4 tick with less than 20 minutes will every go in game. I think it is more likely that a 2 tick 40 to 60 minute or 3 tick 70 to 90 minute abilitiy will be added if any.