Various thoughts .. War/Pal/SK & Patches

[EmiliaEQ]

I've been doing some thinking about the supposed 3 tank classes....
And surprisingly came up with a rather weird conclusion :

The only "Balanced" 1 group content tank is the SK !
Ands because they are actually the WORSE tank

Assuming Tanking is composed of 2 things :
- Getting to the Named (a long crawl)
- Killing the Named (a short burst fight)

SK :
Can not stun trash, so cant mitigate dmg
Can not defensive, so zero burst DPS mitigation

Pal :
Can stun trash, and reduce mob DPS to pathetic level
Can not defensive, so zero burst DPS mitigatoin

War
Can not stun trash, so cant mitigate dmg
Can defensive, which has an enourmous impact on DPS mitigation.


So if you look closely, you will see that Paladins are overpowered on stunnable content.
While warriors are overpowered on high DI mobs (notice i said DI).
SK .... well as the name implies SucK

There is a Tank balance issue. Or actually 2 tank balance issues.
Because you have 2 specialists (Trash & Bosses).
And one lesser tank.


To fix the balance issue on Trash :
- Yellow Trash (balances Paladins vs War/SK) this has no side effects

To fix the balance issue on Bosses :
- Disc Immune Named (balances Warrior vs Pal/SK) but GIMPS content, see BST/RNG tanking
- MiniDisc (Balances Warrior vs Pal/SK) but gives out our core disc and still doesnt scale.


Stun mitigation has been "fixed" by raising mob levels.

I dont like the road SoE took with "Disc Immune" fix defensive mitigation.
And to be honest i dont really see a "reasonable solution" to the problem.

What i do find funny, is that in this flame & post frenzy between War & Paladin for tanking.
The shittiest tank (SK) , is often forgotten !
While they are tanking wise, by far the worse of the 3 tanks

[Mathas]

Originally Posted by EmiliaEQ

What i do find funny, is that in this flame & post frenzy between War & Paladin for tanking ... the shittiest tank (SK) , is often forgotten!

Tell me about it.

Edit: However, I disagree with the "totally incapable and gimp" comment.

[Madronedorf]

SK's need something thats for sure, there would be more SK's bitching if there were more of them though, and they generally stick to the SK board...

Paladins roam!

[EmiliaEQ]

Edit: However, I disagree with the "totally incapable and gimp" comment

Changed to be less sarcastic and insulting i apologise. SK are a great & flexible class.

But I never imagined there would be such a huge CHASM between the 3 of us.
Comparing Pal vs SK and War vs SK in every day life (Trash or Boss) makes SK look like gimps.

Cant Chain stun , Cant Defensive... "The Lesser Tank" at best.

Notice: Lesser Tank , not Lesser Class. I didnt mix up class overall power with pure tanking.

I looked at some old Parses on PoN and was Shocked :
http://p202.ezboard.com/fpaladinsofn...cID=2729.topic

As overpowered as defensive was/is in Tipt & Ikkinz .... Stun is INSANE.

I dont have any parses but no way in hell i took 250DPS on Blue Tipt Mobs.
Even with the 2200ac 15% Shielding i had during the KT Reflags before the LVL change.

Its basically reduced to "Warrior Defensive VS Paladin Stuns"
While poor SK got none of these ....

SK should be screaming out so loud, you could hear them even on Jupiter.

[Madronedorf]

when i play warcraft 3 hero games i love getting 2-3 heros that cast that ae stun and just owning a mob thats perma stunned...

err back on topic!

stop making teh sk's h8 on us more! =(

[EmiliaEQ]

I think they hate both of us

I always knew defensive was overpowered (3+ years as a warrior does that).
And stuns were insane (never had any numbers to illustrate that now i do).

But i never imagined the sad position of SK that have neither....


Class Balance is a bit more complicated than we seem to think or see on the 1st glance.

[Slein Jinn]

Defensive is only overpowered because only one tank class has a form of it. If all tanks had a defensive-style disc, it would serve the useful function of distancing the tanks from the DPS classes. The ability to tailor it specifically to the needs of each class is also more beneficial than no defensive disc's existitng - knights' disc can be designed more toward offtanking, while warrior defensive would remain ideal for tanking boss mobs; both would fit the bill for one-group bosses.

[Kailyn]

Oh my, you drew the dreadest lord out.

And I agree.

Odd to think I have been playing EQ since rangers were the best tanks in the game now ands its only now that we have a term like "Burst Mitigation." But put that way its very easy to see the problem.

[Gobsmash Emgood]

The only "Balanced" 1 group content tank is the SK !
Ands because they are actually the WORSE tank

Assuming Tanking is composed of 2 things :
- Getting to the Named (a long crawl)
- Killing the Named (a short burst fight)

SK :
Can not stun trash, so cant mitigate dmg
Can not defensive, so zero burst DPS mitigation

Pal :
Can stun trash, and reduce mob DPS to pathetic level
Can not defensive, so zero burst DPS mitigatoin

War
Can not stun trash, so cant mitigate dmg
Can defensive, which has an enourmous impact on DPS mitigation.

I agree with you that they are the 2 major things but to be more true to the way things are you need to take the SK's main advantage as well as the difficulty of the mobs and zone in to consideration.

While an SK can not do either of the things a warrior or a paladin can they have a tap that returns mana and hp, while the hp heal for the entire group is minor the mana refresh is a very powerful spell. By itself it returns 100 mana to every member of a group giving an effective FT of 10 over and above what casters have to start, that means all group casters regen up to 40% more mana over the same time. So while a SK cannot reduce damage taken they can add 40% more healing over time AND 40% caster DPS. With there agro spells controlling the mob would not be a problem either.


40% more healing and 40% more caster DPS gives SK’s the advantage unless they are in danger of dieing on the content.

[Slein Jinn]

And pallys have excellent group heals...

To say that SK's are balanced because of Zevfeer's is rediculous - we're one of many classes who can contribute manaregen (though ours has more limitations) but beyond that are pretty much useless; someone else can do all of our jobs better. We're supposed to be a tank class, but we're not effective in that role - our secondary abilities do not justify our inibility to perform our primary function.

Warriors should have better raw tanking power than SK's/pallys, but knights should be valuable as tanks as well; our secondary abilities should compensate for the disparity.

As it is, (variables represent progression) a warrior at X is able to tank content that a knight at X+n cannot. This should never be the case. A knight and warrior and knight at an equal level of progression should be able to tank the same set of mobs. In doing so, a warrior should take less damage and be at less risk of something going wrong, however. From a raw tanking standpoint, a warrior should be best, but a knight should be able to get the job done, and the disparity should be compensated by the knight's secondary abilities.

It's a little different with regards to raid bosses, because (unless they're already trivial to you) nobody can generally tank them entirely reliably, hence MT rotations, regular occurances of 1-rounding, etc. Also, when tanking on a raid, the value of the knights' secondary abilities is nil compared to one's ability to take the punishment from the mob. Because of this, warriors will invariably remain the superior tank; they should not be the superior offtank too, however.

[Trilith]

Ideally, I would say the only requirement for tanking is that Warriors, Shadowknights and Paladins all reach a minimium level to be viable tanks for all appropriate content. After that, equality need not be reached. The flavor after that is what is required to seperate the three classes a bit. Everyone has different ideas of what their strengths should be and where they should line up, so its hard to get a general consensus. Personally, I would go out on a limb and say its not wrong for Paladins to tank a bit better then shadowknights by virtue of how their spellbooks are setup; one is decidely defensive and one is decidedly offensive. Between the hybrids you are essentially picking between better defense of better offense. For the most part, that is reflected well.

Warriors can be a bit more problematice to fit in. Personally, I would put them in between Paladins and Shadowknights in terms of dps and make them the best at absorbing damage. I would make warriors good enough that paladins using *one* stun to mitigate damage would at best equal them (albiet, with much spikier, dangerous damage), but preferably still be lower by a bit. Mind you, that gap must never be so large as to remove SK's from the status of viable tanks.

What I am interested in knowing is, do you guys/anyone have actual parses comparing warrior mitigating to that of a paladin against the same mobs (ones that are stunnable by FoA and that alone)? It would be interesting to see how much of a difference the stuns actually make. I would run them myself but I don't know any warriors who would be interested in sitting down to do some kind of controlled test with me.

[Mathas]

Originally Posted by Slein Jinn

We're supposed to be a tank class, but we're not effective in that role - our secondary abilities do not justify our inibility to perform our primary function.

Well, honestly, it's not so much that we're ineffective as tanks, as it is the other two options are much more effective(due to reasons mentioned above). I know I've tanked some mobs that could generally be considered "warrior" turf, due almost entirely to fantastic healers, sufficient gear, and a healthy portion of luck.

Your statement could be more accurately written as "We are a tank class, though not as effective as we should or could be - and our secondary abilities do not adequately justify the gap between ourselves and the other plate tank classes at performing our primary functions."

I really do not think shadowknights(or knights in general) need defensive. Yes it would help, of course, but that's not the best solution.

[Northerner]

Let's qualify this properly though. SKs are presently the weakest of the tanks at raid-tanking. They are (in my opinion at least) the strongest of the exp-tanks available.

SKs also are the only tank class to offer a reasonable dps burst in the form of HT, where applicable. They have decent survivability from lifetapping and related spells and can also perform some utility in terms of FD/pet splitting and group taps. A good tradeoff for Pally rezzes and group heals? I'd say no but it isn't like they have nothing at all. As restricted as rez is right now, I often see groups taking a Paladin or Necro along for that alone when tackling harder content.

[maicom]

First off, wow, thank you Emilia.

Second:

Originally Posted by Northerner

Let's qualify this properly though. SKs are presently the weakest of the tanks at raid-tanking. They are (in my opinion at least) the strongest of the exp-tanks available.

SKs also are the only tank class to offer a reasonable dps burst in the form of HT, where applicable. They have decent survivability from lifetapping and related spells and can also perform some utility in terms of FD/pet splitting and group taps. A good tradeoff for Pally rezzes and group heals? I'd say no but it isn't like they have nothing at all. As restricted as rez is right now, I often see groups taking a Paladin or Necro along for that alone when tackling harder content.

Again the problem with sk's is scaleability. Pulling is something that scale's(kinda). However we could use some help in that department. The last pullin upgrade we got was Death peace... from velious. That was implemented because normal feign death just didn't cut it when gettin beat on by the new harder mobs.

Back to scaleability: we have a 470 lifetap that has a 10 second refresh after bein cast. Our next best one is 330, also with a 10 second refresh. These taps own if your doin a normal ldon or tankin in BoT but really don't do anything when your tankin somethin that could be called remotely challenging.

I have gotten some tipt groups as a puller and I do well there, and am to the point where I can tank these provided I have the proper group:
Me, cleric, shaman(malosinia for pet), ranger(WS for jhiru), chanter(pooka), puller(monk/bard, sk can but not really preferable)

Also HT is nice, but it's in no way somethin that a class can be balanced around. I'm not gonna bitch and whine and say that we are completely useless at the moment we have 2 things goin for us:
400 range pulls(requires a seru bow) + Harmshield + FD has its uses, can tack on pet pullin here
HT does help somewhat w/GoD content. IE: 30% of jhiru's life.

There are a few things that could be done, spreadin defensive around is one of em. I'd almost rather prefer for defensive to be removed from the game and warriors to be moved to somethin like -X DI, knights at -(X-n) DI, etc... would cause more differentiation between tanks and non-tanks in my opinion.

To summarize: Emilia, I wanna have like 10,000 of your babies. To see a post like that coming from a warrior makes me feel that there is some hope for class balance.

[Mathas]

Originally Posted by Northerner

[Shadowknights] are (in my opinion at least) the strongest of the exp-tanks available.

I'd be interested to hear how you came to that conclusion, compared to what the other tanks bring to the table.

Originally Posted by Maicom

I have gotten some tipt groups as a puller and I do well there

A monkey banging it's paws on the keyboard could pull Tipt. It certainly doesn't require feign or pacify to do, just a basic understanding of mob aggro ranges and pathing. The rare time you get more than one mob, the add can(9 times out of 10) be rooted, mezzed, or both.