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Shield Specialist = more DPS?!?!?!

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Old 01-18-2010   #1
Goror
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Shield Specialist = more DPS?!?!?!

Ok, I was reading this thread on the EQPlayers' website:

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/po...opic_id=160274

This comments was made:

Quote:
Many parses have been made, on SW and samanna, 1hand/shield is more dps than dual for warrior.
I know in the thread the posters already admitted that there is a loss of aggro by going from dual weilding to sword and board, but when did sword and board mean more DPS?

I guess the more important question is where does this kick in? Do I need max shield specialist and a certain ratio of weapon? Or what?
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Old 01-18-2010   #2
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You did read the poster's other comments didn't you (warriors not intended to use shields, Knights who have always been 2Hdr oriented - see their Epics, should be teh best with shields too) ?

They should give you a referance for the other comments.

As far as I know, a Warrior in maximum turtle mode, using a shield, Final Stand, Rogue aggro potion while weilding an aggro weapon with an aggro aug (to overcome aggro deficiencies), and potentially getting survival assistance like Listless....

isn't doing anything like the DPS he would be doing DWing, with his two best weapons from the same tier, getting offensive support in a melee DPS group, using a Rogue DPS rather than an aggro poison, and using his burst offensive capabilities rather than Final Stand.

Believe me, I don't switch to a shield when the raid leader screams "BURN!".

Bascially, it's more cooked parses from players that manufacture self-serving myths like Warriors who can use most shields, have had Warrior only shields, and have Shield Block/master of arms and armor were supposed to be inferior to half casters in a non-magical aspect of meleeing.

Nobody takes them seriously.

Except when using them for something like campaigning to making shields more practical for Warriors - such players are useful since their counter arguments are both predictable (you can count ahead that they will make them) and obviously weak.
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Old 01-18-2010   #3
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Thanks BB. I did read all of the other comments in that thread; however, I was stuck on that one comment.
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Old 01-18-2010   #4
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Test it yourself. On any content where you feel compelled to use a shield you are either going to use Final Stand/Hold the line frequently or hold them in reserve - you won't be using a shield and burst DPS, you'll be using Rogue aggro poisons, etc.
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Old 01-18-2010   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Battleblade View Post
Test it yourself. On any content where you feel compelled to use a shield you are either going to use Final Stand/Hold the line frequently or hold them in reserve - you won't be using a shield and burst DPS, you'll be using Rogue aggro poisons, etc.
I would need a few nights/weeks to get all of the AA needed to make a realistic comparison.

The comment about more DPS threw me for a loop and made me question whether I am spending my AA in the correct areas.
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Old 01-19-2010   #6
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well, if you use BBoB+epic2 for tanking, then yes, the best bazaar 1her + shield + correct AA will most probably out dps your tanking setup.
aside from that, it is a complete bullshit. the 1her+shield dps is around 5 to 15% lower than 2her DPS (increasing the marging so that I have more chance to be right), and our 2Her dps is around 5 to 15% lower than our DW dps (thanks to stagnation of 2her oriented AA).

IF the increase of our dps keep the same rates (depending on setups) as the past three expansions, then in one or two expansion our 1her+shield dps is likely to pass our 2her dps.
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Old 01-19-2010   #7
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Just as an aside- you say it would take you a while to get the relevant AA to test it yourself.

If you do the command /testcopy in EQ, it will copy your character to the test server.

Exit EQ and go to the everquest directory, there is a file testeverquest.exe. This will patch you to the test version, and allow you to login to the test server. To go back, run everquest.exe like normal.

(I have 2 eq directories, one I use for test, one I use for live, to reduce patching time).

Now that you are on the test server, you have access to /resetaa

This command refunds you all of your spent AA's, allowing you to spend them differently and test things out.

Also, if you go to the Arena, buff timers stop counting down (like lobby and guild hall), and there is a NPC there that will spawn test dummies for you.

Test dummies allow you to run very long tests. They can't be killed, you can set them to fight back, not fight back, change how hard and fast they hit, make them proc a heal on you so you can tank them for hours without dieing, etc.

Now that the bonus exp weekend is over, you'll probably see me there- I've got several parses I want to do, and I've been slacking!
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Old 01-19-2010   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
well, if you use BBoB+epic2 for tanking, then yes, the best bazaar 1her + shield + correct AA will most probably out dps your tanking setup.
aside from that, it is a complete bullshit. the 1her+shield dps is around 5 to 15% lower than 2her DPS (increasing the marging so that I have more chance to be right), and our 2Her dps is around 5 to 15% lower than our DW dps (thanks to stagnation of 2her oriented AA).

IF the increase of our dps keep the same rates (depending on setups) as the past three expansions, then in one or two expansion our 1her+shield dps is likely to pass our 2her dps.
After your post in this thread

http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum...ad.php?t=20039

I assumed that a high end 1hander with shield and AA would beat out the current 2Handers. Did the results take a different turn?

(I've been telling Jy to max SS and ditch his 2hander on his SK. Did I screw up?)
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Old 01-19-2010   #9
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For a war, thanks to the stagnation of WAR/BER usable 2h weaps, you'll probably do more DPS Sword + Board over 2h soon.

Think about it. Back in CoA, WAR 2.0 was $$ now it's reaaaaaaally far behind in dps over what you can group.

Now, You know that BER 2.0 is 91+1/33. . . . with two aug slots. +7dmg aug and +8+1 dmg aug puts the 2.0 at 106+2/33 which is better DPS than OMM group weaps. The F'ing BER 2.0 from Omens of War expansion is better than the stupid Mithril Sword at 103/34. . . .

No ranger, rog, war, bst, monk is using 2.0 over brew-buyable OMM weaps (Group) because the dps just is better. Stagnation.

Solteris 2hb is 90/30? Whoopty doo. huge upgrade to 2.0 .... forget the 54/24 1hs that kicks the living crap out of 2.0 for rangers. or the 54/22 1hs. (RNG 2.0 42/24)

So i have no doubt that for WARs, 1h+shield will soon outdps 2h. Your 1h weaps have SKYROCKETED while 2hrs are limping along. Seriously compare the dps increases going from GSoM from Jelvan or RoSW from Vish to say, any 2h that drops in group content that is War/Ber usable.

THEN compare 2.0 or NBoB from AMV, to groupable 1h weaps.... I bet you'll see a higher increase in your DPS.

I know someone has to have 2.0 or 2.5 and a NBoB from AMV. Plus you may still have a RoSW from Vish (Rune ftw).

Go parse the dps of each setup. DW and 2h from similar eras (OOW, DoN, or Demi). Now parse your Best 2h and your Best DW setup from the same era or tier (don't parse tower DW vs SoD Grp 2h) etc.

Anyone able to do this? I'm thinking it's not the 2h AA stagnation, but the 2h weap stagnation that is hurting 2h dps. I blame the zerkers.
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Old 01-19-2010   #10
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Just looked up the best 2h i can think of atm.

Silvery Two Handed Axe
Skill: 2H Slashing Atk Delay: 34
DMG: 144 Dmg Bonus: 66 AC: 107
Cold DMG: 1

1h weaps from the same tier are 75/25 and 64/21 (Cold iron morningstar and Crystalline blade)

144/34 = 4.235 ratio OMM raid 2h
92/33 = 2.788 ratio BER 2.0

75/25 = 3.000 ratio OMM raid 1hb
64/21 = 3.048 ratio OMM raid 1hs

42/24 = 1.750 ratio (Ranger 2.0)
38/24 = 1.583 ratio (NBoB)

Arguably the best DPS setup for a ranger in OOW.

Primary of 1.75 has given way to 3.05 (in this case)
Secondary of 1.58 has given way to 3.0

An increase of 74% primary (1.742*1.75=3.05) and 90% increase in offhand (1.899*1.58=3.0)....

2handers? Well... sadly. 2.79 has given way to 4.24. 52% increase. Over the same time, 1h weaps have almost doubled and 2handers have increased by HALF. 74-90% vs 52% increase is stagnation. Hell if GSoM at 95/40 had increased 90%, the new OMM raid weap would be 153/34.... Or if the 2.0 had increased 74%, the OMM raid weap would be at 165/34.

Yes, you will see WAR 1h + Shield out dpsing 2handers soon enough.

On the SK? maybe not, because they're getting nice, higher-than other classes, 2h ratios. Kinda like their 1handers with 2hander ratios.

Spiderback Axe: 152+3/34 - Pal/SK -----------------4.56
Spider Tender's Goad: 142+2/34 Pal/SK------------4.23
Collyx's Cleaver: 130+1/34 War/Ber/Pal/Rng/Sk--3.85

Boomerang Game weaps:

Pal 158/35-----4.51
SK 156/35------4.45
Ber 129/32-----4.03
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Old 01-19-2010   #11
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From the two parses I've ran so far, with no discs, just Rk. 3 Unity, Gallantry, and chanter haste, sword+board was approximately 230 DPS below dual wield. That's with Keen Edge + Raxtki vs Keen Edge + Discord Rider Shield.

I'll have more info once I finish the series of parses I was planning on. Any suggestions of what people would like to see would be helpful.

Edit - I thought I had bought all appropriate DPS AA's, apparently I missed two ranks of burst of power and 5 ranks of enhanced aggression. Keep that in mind. I'll be re-running all my parses with the right AA's ASAP.
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Old 01-19-2010   #12
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Sunchyne.

After you run your two parses again, can you please give us the DPS DW vs DPS S+B.?

1500 vs 1240 or whatever.

Also, do you, perhaps, have Triskixx the Sweeper? Or maybe OMM 2h? I'd like to see a parse using those as well. And compare the DPS to your DW & SB.

Thanks!
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Old 01-19-2010   #13
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Sure. Currently without those two AA's, I'm sitting at 2063 vs 1831 on DW vs S+B.

I also have Trisikxx, that's the parse that's running right now.
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Old 01-19-2010   #14
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Sweet. I'm anxious to see how Triksixx parses in relation to DW. Since Triksixx is like the #1 DPS 2h that I know of.
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Old 01-19-2010   #15
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Skitterer is better DPS than Keen Edge I would think due to the ratio, Sunchyne. But keen is better for aggro.
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