Just for reference: Aggro

[Morose]

I'm not certain on that response. I know with my necro that I can dot a mob, FD and then stand up have aggro cleared (indicated by the ooc timer kicking in). When the next tick of the dot goes off, that mob is angry at me again.

I wonder if he was mistaking a normal debuff. Slow, malo and the that type with no dmg do not reestablish aggro after a memblur.

[Morose]

Originally Posted by Lluianae

But wouldn't that just affect the DD portion, or is it something that effects both the stun-hp aggro portion and the DD?

This may explain the strange things tenfon noticed when he did the aggro parsing with DDs?

I read spell in his quote. So I think its the entire spell aggro generation. But I also read slight. I'm just wondering how slight. I have a 59 wizzy that has no SCS or other hate reduction. So I might go test this out next week.

[Yoda]

tenfon got some DD (both pure DD and DD component) at a lower ratio (down to 80%) maybe it is due to resists. However, since rashere said that an immunity is treated as a max resist, then parsing stun proc on giant should answer the question. We do know it still does a lot of aggro, but how much less ?

[Lorce]

Originally Posted by Morose

I'm not certain on that response. I know with my necro that I can dot a mob, FD and then stand up have aggro cleared (indicated by the ooc timer kicking in). When the next tick of the dot goes off, that mob is angry at me again.

I wonder if he was mistaking a normal debuff. Slow, malo and the that type with no dmg do not reestablish aggro after a memblur.

Ya, what he is saying about dots doesn't work that way from my experience. I have seen someone dot a mob, fd, get cohed (a ways out of agro range), then pop up and intially have no agro until the next tick of a dot. I have used it as a trick to pull before when mobs are on different factions, run up to a mob acrossed the zone, dot it, get cohed and the mob comes back solo.

Bazu seems to work the same way as a dot from my experience. I know if you tetehr a mob that is bazued he reagros on you with nothing extra done to reenter the agro list. I think his quote must be reffering to debuffs and not dots.

[Ouruk]

I would speculate that the dot aggro may act as developers indicated, however on each subsequent tick if the caster had FD'd or otherwise cleared aggro the mob may once again experience the "oh crap - he cast a spell on me" 100 hate points.

The test I would use to determine the quantity of per-tick hate is: hit a mob with a dot, FD, then have someone else hit the mob with a known quantity of hate (a low level SK hate spell; say terror of darkness: 200hate) - have the original dotter stand up and see whom the mob chases down.

Assuming the dotter hits the mob with a large dot we as a community had previously speculated that dot hate generated was a ratio that would put big dots in the 500+ hate neighbourhood.

This test would provide a bit more insight into the quantities of hate produced by dots since they clearly do generate some form of hate.

Any suggestions to refinement of this test are welcome - sadly I don't have an SK or a necro to confirm that this indeed would work.

[Yakk]

Originally Posted by Yoda

tenfon got some DD (both pure DD and DD component) at a lower ratio (down to 80%) maybe it is due to resists. However, since rashere said that an immunity is treated as a max resist, then parsing stun proc on giant should answer the question. We do know it still does a lot of aggro, but how much less ?

Have a citation for "immunity is treated as a max resist for aggro purposes"?

In any case, we can do parsing of cast-stuns on giants (IMMUNE to stun), and SK aggro spells (unresistable), and determine the exact amount of aggro a cast-stun generates on a giant.

Repeat on a non-giant, and we can get the max-resistance aggro ratio for spells.

Repeat using hybrid nuke/stun spells, determine how their aggro scales on giants.

Confirm using pure-stun procs that it works the same way with stun-procs.

Confirm using hybrid nuke/stun procs that it works the same way with nuke+stun-procs.

...And we could ask Rashere what the aggro ratio of "max resist" targets is.

[Lluianae]

Originally Posted by Yakk

Have a citation for "immunity is treated as a max resist for aggro purposes"?

Originally Posted by Rashere

I'm not sure about A. Immunity counts as a resist, though, and you get full aggro from the spell (minus whatever modifiers would normally apply).

Rashere

Full aggro would imply with DDs base dmg at 1:1 which is the aggro of a full resist either way assuming the chance of resist isn't hugely likely with very resistant NPCs.

[Missa]

Originally Posted by Morose

I'm not certain on that response. I know with my necro that I can dot a mob, FD and then stand up have aggro cleared (indicated by the ooc timer kicking in). When the next tick of the dot goes off, that mob is angry at me again.

I wonder if he was mistaking a normal debuff. Slow, malo and the that type with no dmg do not reestablish aggro after a memblur.

Pretty sure he wasn't as I posed the senario with my necro.
What I wonder is if the fact that a spell ticks that his hate range expands. Kind of how we start looking around if suddenly we are getting attacked by an unknown mob. Also we were talking about mindwiping mobs, so they may react differently than FDing off aggro... /shrug

[Missa]

Originally Posted by Ouruk

I would speculate that the dot aggro may act as developers indicated, however on each subsequent tick if the caster had FD'd or otherwise cleared aggro the mob may once again experience the "oh crap - he cast a spell on me" 100 hate points.

This was my specific question. I wanted to know if my nec, or my war's drk bad breath would cause thaat 100 spell after the first tick if a mind wipe occurred.

[Yakk]

Originally Posted by Lluianae

Full aggro would imply with DDs base dmg at 1:1 which is the aggro of a full resist either way assuming the chance of resist isn't hugely likely with very resistant NPCs.

The issue I'm curious about is "if the NPC is mopre likely to resist an effect, it gets less aggro from the effect by a small amount".

An immunity is treated as a resist, but an actual resist has zero effect on the aggro of a spell/effect.

Now, if a mob is immune to an effect does the NPC treat the spell as being 100% likely to resist the effect when calculating the aggro from the effect? Or does it only use the resist mod/relative level/mob resists to calculate the amount to scale the spell's aggro?

If the mob treats IMMUNITY as if it is likely to resist the spell, then a pure-stun spell cast on a giant would generate less aggro than cast on a non-giant. This gives us a way to determine what the "likely to resist aggro-reduction" test.

Otherwise, we need to find one of those "100% MR" (or 100% PR, or ...) NPCs to do the "unlikely to resist aggro-reduction" test on.

Prathun's statement on the subject is somewhat ambiguous, sadly.

[Morose]

I read his statements as immunity counts as a resist. Nothing to do with how resistant it is. Just that in terms of aggro/hate is acts as if the spell was resisted like a normal nuke/dot/debuff could be. I do not think immunity plays any role in aggro generation.

I was planning to use a mage pet in the arena for my tests. Mage fire pet is fully fire immune. While mage earth pet will have a normal resist or use the resist of the caster, whichever is higher. My plan was to debuff the caster and have him drop fire resists. Have my war put bazu's on the pet until I'm happy with a nice aggro range, and then have my wizzy use the same fire nuke over and over until it pulls aggro. Repeat both tests with earth and fire pet of the same level and see how they differ.

afaik, a pet works just like a normal NPC with aggro unless a special focus AA or command is used to change its behavior.

[Kudedor]

Originally Posted by Morose

I read his statements as immunity counts as a resist. Nothing to do with how resistant it is. Just that in terms of aggro/hate is acts as if the spell was resisted like a normal nuke/dot/debuff could be. I do not think immunity plays any role in aggro generation.

I read it the same way.
"Immunity counts as a resist, though, and you get full aggro from the spell (minus whatever modifiers would normally apply)."

In the context of the post, implies that you do not get the aggro reduction you would from a mob being resistant to the spell. I also infer that mobs that are 100% resistant to a resist type or all magic (different to attack speed/run speed immunity) and so called "belly-casters" were not included in his assertion.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by Yakk

Prathun's statement on the subject is somewhat ambiguous, sadly.

yes, I do agree. Moreover, the more I read he quote:

Originally Posted by Rashere

I'm not sure about A. Immunity counts as a resist, though, and you get full aggro from the spell (minus whatever modifiers would normally apply).

Rashere

the more I think that the modifiers he is refering to may not be % but raw reduction... like if the total hate would be max(1; base_hate_of_spell - resist_of_the_mob/10 )
(the /10 being there just for an exemple)

and if the resist is taken into account, I wounder if the resist mod of the spell his taken into account too...



note: btw, if we test stuns, we have to face giant of lvl 65+ to cap the stun hate. ideally we would target giant and non-immune level 68-70 to test both ykesha and CS lines to see if the resist mob and/or the level of the stun do affect the hate or not.

[gincidesraider]

Immunity counts as a resist, though, and you get full aggro from the spell

If a mob is immune to a spell, the spell will still generate hate.

(minus whatever modifiers would normally apply)

however because an immunity to a spell counts as max resist, there is still a penalty to the hate generated

summary: ( i think '!=' means 'does not equal', heh)
hate generated on immune mob by spell !=0
hate generated on immune mob by spell != 100%
hate generated on immune mob by spell = 100% - 1(resist modifier)

[Lluianae]

Originally Posted by Yoda

note: btw, if we test stuns, we have to face giant of lvl 65+ to cap the stun hate. ideally we would target giant and non-immune level 68-70 to test both ykesha and CS lines to see if the resist mob and/or the level of the stun do affect the hate or not.

2 great candidates!

One who isn't resistant but is level 70 - Derakor the Vindicator
One who is Magic Resistant but is level 70 - Velketor the Sorceror

Preferably you'd want the latter OoM so he isn't spam casting spells for 5 minutes