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Last Blood Augs

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Old 04-16-2007   #1
Grayhelm
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Last Blood Augs

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I do want to note one thing here.

The AC on the last blood augments are too high. We have no plans on adjusting this down, but because they were too high, the new higher level ones may not have a large AC jump, and may even be about the same on the AC front. The upgrade will be more significant in the stats and the focus effects.

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source : http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/po...09985&#1543889

We all knew it, there's confirmation.
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Old 04-16-2007   #2
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ya, Bazu/lastblood do have to high ac for their content level.. Bazu around 20 ac, and lastblood around 35ac would have been more fitting
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Old 04-17-2007   #3
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Well the good news is there isn't going to be a nerf. They just won't be increasing the AC on the new augs they're going to bring out for the 75+ gear.
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Old 04-17-2007   #4
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I don't recall ever thinking that Ngreth doesn't know what he's talking about concerning tradeskill stuff.

Doesn't mean that tradeskills haven't made my warrior's life an especially frustrating living hell every now and then, but I generally think Ngreth has a pretty good idea of the implications of changing tradeskill stuff.
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Old 04-17-2007   #5
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That comment came out a few months ago iirc. The biggest balancing problem wasn't with the plate classes. Yes it was overbalanced somewhat for tanks, but the real rub came with leather/silk and chain. In the case of plates, there was 10-20% increase in ac over their ready-to-go raid counterparts. This wasn't terribly missbalanced because of all the extra work that went into making/buying the gear and going out of your way to find good type 7 augs to fit in it. In the case of other archetypes though, there was a 100%+ increase in ac when compared to their counterparts. Couple this with personalizable focus and suddenly you've got a very big problem.

For tanks it was a minor hiccup, but for everyone else it was something a lot more drastic. The aug itself in some cases had several times more ac on it than a full piece of DPoB+ armor sported, and that's not counting the GM armor shell it had to fit in.
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Old 04-17-2007   #6
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I should find my log where I spoke with Maddoc. LB's were Zajeer's numbers, Maddoc just created them. The rAC was too high but they never were going to nerf them.
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Old 04-17-2007   #7
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Do you have any idea how large the return-over-the-cap differences are between tanks and non-tanks?

A druid gets something like 1/6th the real AC from worn AC over the softcap that tanks do. So for a druid to have the same "real" AC as a plate tank, they would need 600 AC chest slot items: and that would only match a 100 AC plate tank breastplate!

Now, monks might be able to do better with this, especially after the recent boosting of their post-softcap.

Tanks, meanwhile, can leverage this AC quite well. High returns-past-softcap, and other high-AC gear to help get them over creature's AC hump.

Edit: added "that tanks do"

Last edited by Yakk; 04-17-2007 at 12:26 PM.
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Old 04-17-2007   #8
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~1/18 was the supposed figure for a druid (with bst a ~1/6) but yeah heh, post cap they'd need a ridiculously high amount just to match the same as anyone in plate. All the more reason to use Crest in shield over any other.
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Old 04-17-2007   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lluianae View Post
~1/18 was the supposed figure for a druid (with bst a ~1/6) but yeah heh, post cap they'd need a ridiculously high amount just to match the same as anyone in plate. All the more reason to use Crest in shield over any other.
Tanks are 1/3. 1/18 is 1/6 of a tank.

Edited original post to clarify. I was comparing what the effects of 1 point of AC on a druid does compared to 1 point on a Tank.
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Old 04-17-2007   #10
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I'm well aware, I was just stating that in the case of warriors it was only moderately out of line while for other archetypes it was borderline insane. There are 2 ways they set up things to balance the archetypes mitigation-wise. The 'balance' we have now is a combination of decreased ac returns and innately weaker ac values on the gear.

DPoB silk hat has 25ac ... a last blood hat on the other hand has 45ac + the base ac level on the GM silk cap. So across the board yes Last bloods are way out of line. If you just consider plates, they're only kind of out of line, but somewhat balance for the drawbacks I already mentioned.
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Old 04-17-2007   #11
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GM LB Hat: 63 AC.
Luclin-Era Silk hat: 35 AC.
80% increase since Luclin, or boost of 28 AC in the slot.

There where 4 of them. At least 2 of them where silk-class only.

GM Robe: 30 AC.
LB: +45
----
75 AC

Luclin-era silk robe: 60 AC.

An increase of 25%, or 15 AC.

Warriors, meanwhile, went from 80 to 144 AC in the chest. 64 AC or 80% boost in the chest slot.

Like I said, there might be a concern with Monks: Monks being a low-gear-AC with high-innate-AC class and a high-return-past-cap. But, practically, the returns past the cap on most classes are so punative it isn't funny: there isn't a balance concern, because the returns from non-shield AC from most non-tank classes is so low it ain't funny.
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Old 04-17-2007   #12
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Why are you comparing current content with VT? Luclin ac values (especially VT) were universally boinked to high hell. Please keep it more relevant and at least use the numbers from content within one or 2 expansions. The concern was how Last blood was missbalanced compared to other content in/around it's day.

The difference btw GM plate bp and Fallen Saint is (144 - 143) one ac.

The differenct btw GM silk bp and DPoB robe is (75 - 49) twenty-six ac.

The gap only increases as you move away from the BP slots and look at items like wrists/gloves/boots/arms. Yes GM maintains a noticable advantage on the plate side, but it ventures into the realm of ludicrous when looking at silk and leather ... even somewhat for chain.
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Old 04-19-2007   #13
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The silk gear in question didn't break the game in PoP.

For it to be a balance concern, it has to have game-balance impact. My claim is that for most non-tanks, it isn't a balance concern: the impact of higher AC is low enough that it doesn't matter that much if you give them more of it.

On tanks and (recently, with their return-past-the-cap being brought up to knight levels) monks, the returns on AC mean that the higher AC from last blood augs actually matters: you can see that in "AC whore" tanks who are able to match "HP whore" tanks in raid survivability, while using augs and gear from easier content (in many cases, single-group content).

That is a balance concern. Boosting silk casters up to a touch more AC than they had in Luclin is not, given how little their AC matters. While silk are somewhat extreme, the information we have on returns-past-the-cap seem to indicate that the returns-past-the-cap on non-tanks is pretty low.
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Old 04-19-2007   #14
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Quote:
you can see that in "AC whore" tanks who are able to match "HP whore" tanks in raid survivability, while using augs and gear from easier content (in many cases, single-group content).
An AC whore doesn't need last bloods to match the survivability of a HP whore tank Yakk. You're opening a whole 'nother can of worms altogether though, and that boils down to preference. There's more than one way to skin a cat, and while some people choose to skin it from head to tail, other's might go the opposite route. In both cases tanks can effectively manage content ... some just do so with a greater degree of safety and efficiency. If you think Last bloods are what magically shifted the hp/ac balance argument, you're wrong. The debate has been around really since Omens came out and decent ac augs became widely available (and for the first time we could fill all spots with something meaningful an had to start making tradeoffs).

I'd still use my xp group augments even if I had nothing but type 8's. If you want the perfect example of power vs power in the absence of last bloods, you need only look at Velle vs other similarly geared warriors. The trend of giving up ~2000 hps for ~900 ac holds true regardless of the armor you wear, so the only real question then is what gets you more mileage ... 900ac or 2000hp or some level in between the two? (Using rough estimates only)

Regardless, there are plenty of good type 7 hp augs to fit in an almost full set of Last blood gear ... assuming you have the gumption to farm them. In many cases they're actually easier to get and more productive than their ac counterparts. Here are a few examples:

90hp 4% shielding from the nest
165hp from next
120hp from ashengate
100hp + dotshield from ashengate
100hp + spellshield from frostcrypt
120hp from frostcrypt

All of these augments are competitive in the hp department compared to their 'raid' counterparts, so the argument of relative difficulty acquiring doesn't hold true. In reality, since the TSS groupable augs, Last bloods favor the HP whore more than the ac whore because you can build a stronger piece of gear with larger hps than the pure raid counterpart ... while at the same time having respectable enough ac to arguably not require the use of ac augments. Last bloods did not favor the AC whore, they favored the individuals who were willing to put the time into building the gear and then going out to find the few powerful augments that actually fit in type 7.

Last edited by Bedavir; 04-19-2007 at 12:54 PM.
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Old 04-20-2007   #15
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That was nicely said.

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