How are the augs itemizied?

[Phantron]

After today's patch I'm beginning to think whoever itemized the augs, especially the AC augs, must be a silk or a monk class. The insane amount of AC you can get on augs only make sense if you're not a tanking class. At the current trend, the best set of augs to have will be something like:

Spellshield Augs
Dotshield Augs
Stun Resist Augs
Accuracy/CE if you want them
Everything else will be AC.

With many augs being upgraded to 25 or 30 AC with today's patch, the best augs for a tank now almost all come from a single group. Where is the raid 40 AC 4% spellshield augs? 35 AC 5% stun resist? Why do augs even exist as a loot in the raid game if plain old 25 AC+ augs are better than the best augs you can possibly get at a raid as a tank?

Despite my stance on AC vs HP, I've long predicted we'll see a swing in AC vs HP in terms of aug choice when we start hitting around 30K HP buffed. However, with new demiplane loot trivially covering the 100 avoid (e.g. another 20 avoid ring, 15 avoid on war class item), shielding is now trivially reached, and the influx of high AC augs, I think we're now at the point where AC is unequivocally better than HP in all cases. The only HP augs you need now are to cover spell/dotshield/stun resist which can be 3-6 depending on how much of a hoarder you are and further there is now enough 25+ AC augs to fill out basically everywhere else.

I haven't seen all the demiplane bosses but given the current trend spell damage seems to be limited in the range of ~3k every 30 seconds, which is hardly anything anyone needs to worry about (and spellshield augs take care of that). Vule is the only current high end boss where a significant of the DPS on tank comes not from melee and I don't think this is changing anytime soon (and DTs don't count because no amount of HP/AC would let you survive them anyway). And really would bosses pumping out 5K+ DDs nonstop be the kind of tanking situation you'd want to be just so that HP and AC can be balanced?

If the point is that AC augs are supposed to be better than HP augs in all cases, then stop having raids drop only HP augs. I've seen the AC-loaded profiles, and it just doesn't make sense a profile loaded with one groupable 20-30 AC augs (even Blessed Shard can be one grouped now) is vastly superior to tanking using any amount of raid augs you can possibly get, simply because raids do not drop AC augs. And yes I have all the one groupable AC augs too, so it's not like it's hard for me to get them. I just think it's stupid that this stuff I obtained trivially in one group is better than anything I can possibly get at a raid.

[BerekAB]

If you think AC is the way to go you can still raid for the best augs.




The whole list I dug up with search was posted by Detheb 04-28-2005

AC Augs
-------
35ac
Focus Shard of Enhanced Protection(type 8) (Guk LDoN Raid - First Witness)
Frosty Gem of Enhanced Protection(Type 8) (Everfrost LDoN raid - Synacura)

30AC
Guardian's Stone of Enhanced Protection(type 8) (MM LDoN Raid - Halusant the Nightblood)
Blessed Shard(Type 8) (Yxtta - Primal Arachnid)

25AC
Flameshield Stone(Type 7,8) (RSS - Pyrliean Riftseeker)
Gravestone Fragment of Protection (Type 8) (LDoN - MMC)

20AC
Ore of Stone Strength(Type 7,8) (RSS - Lower Area)
Scarred Token of Resistance(Type 8) (Yxtta - Mastered Destroyer)
Opaque Sapphire of Bulwark(Type 8) (Kod'Taz - Hexxt Markmaker, Hexxt Bongrinder/Ikkinz/Antechamber of Destruction - Hexxt Markmaker?)
Ground Murkglider Eyes(Type 7,8) (MPG - Blind Hunter)
Ashen Claystone of Aegis(Type 8) (Kod'Taz - Hynid Howler)

18AC (plus a lot more)
Smooth Black Matter Gemstone(Type 8) (BIC quest)

15AC
Daunting Opaque Orb(Type 7) (Ferubi - Pxet Elite Brawler)
Bone Shard of Rigidity(Type 7) (Ferubi - Pxet Elite Blademaster/Pxet Elite Hamermaster)
Bloodstone of Armored Protection(type 7,8) (VP - Xygoz)
Igneous Stone of Hatred (type 7) ( ?? )

10AC
Forsaken Stone of Ire(Type 7,8) (RCoD - Granitesmash)
Brilliant Blood Ruby of Prowess(Type 7,8) (LDoN merchant)

5AC
Jagged Marble Shard of Protection(type 7,8) (LDoN merchant)


HP Augs
-------
HP+175
Dark Heart of Vishmitar(Type 8) (Vishmitar-Boss of DoN)

HP+165
Disc of Dragon Kind(Type 8) (Circle of Drakes-Nest mission)

HP+150
Rune of Futile Resolutions(Type8) (Anguish)

HP+125
Stone of Horrid Transformation(Type 8) (Anguish)

HP+120
Shimmering Granite(Type 8) (Tacvi - Pixxt Xxeric Kex)
Glinting Onyx of Might(Type 8) (Tacvi - Pixxt Xxeric Kex)

HP+100
Kelekdrix's Sandstone of Fortitude(Type 8) (Inktu`Ta - Kelekdrix)

HP+90
Jewel of Focus(Type 8) (Qvic - M'Sha's)
Rune of Living Lightning(Type 8) (Anguish) (+ 50 attack)
Stone of Planar Protection(Type 8) (Anguish) (+ 3% Shielding)
Abhorrent Brimstone of Charring(Type 8) (Anguish) (+ 5% Stun Resist)
Gem of Unnatural Regrowth(Type 8) (Anguish) (+ 3% Dot Shielding. 5FT/R)
Rune of Astral Celerity(Type 8) (Anguish) (+ 15% Avoidance)
Kyv Eye of Marksmanship(Type 8) (Anguish) (+ 15% Accuracy)
Rune of Grim Portents(Type 8) (Anguish) (+ 10% Combat Effects)
Orb of Forbidden Laughter(Type 8) (Anguish) (+ 3% Spell Shield)
Petrified Girplan Heart(Type 8) (Anguish) (+ 3% Dot Shielding)
Ore of the Nest(Type 8) (Circle of Drakes - Nest Mission) (+ 4% Shielding)
Occulus of Yar'Lir(Type 8) (An end to Storms-Thundercrest mission) (+ 15% Avoidance)

HP+80
Ruby of Steadfastness(Type 8) (Txevu)
Sapphire of Capricious Magic(Type 8) (Txevu)

HP+70
Rageshale of Bolstering(Type 8) (Ikkinz/Antechamber of Destruction - Guardian of Glorification)
Aranini's Sandstone of Fortitude(Type 8) (Uqua - Tqiv Araxt the Enraged)
Gauntlet Stone of Fortitude(Type 8) (MM LDoN Raid - Halusant the Nightblood)
Slime-Soaked Jewel(Type 8) (Dunno where drops[Prolly Guk Raids])
Unala's Jewel of Life(Type 8) (Tak LDoN Raid)
Gemstone of Fiery Might(Type 7,8) (RSS - Pyrilen Researcher)

HP+65
Gleaming Stone of Ferocity(Type 7,8) (RSS - Companion Prefect)
Glistening Stone of the Inferno(Type 7,8) (RCoD - Silinea the Wicked)

HP+60
Broken Shard of Chaos(Type 8) (Qvic - Minis)
Prismatic Orchid Amethyst(Type 7,8) (RCoD - Battlemaster Rhorious)
Eye of the Lightninglord(Type 7,8) (MPG/Trial of Destruction)
Sparkling Nest Ornament(Type 7,8) (The Nest- Instanced)
Elemental Stone(type 7,8) (Splitpaw)

HP+55
Stone of the Bloodstill(Type 7,8) (MPG - Odiumate Isienne)
Stone of Focused Fortitude(Type 7,8) (DoN merchants)

HP+50
Unwieldy Irestone of Savagery(Type 8) (Kod`Taz)
Discord Deathstone(Type 8) (Yxtta)
Stone of Dark Health(Type 8) (Qvic)
Obsidian Orb of Bedlam(Type 8) (Qvic)
Bloodied Gravestone Fragment(Type 8) (LDoN Raid)
Spiritstone of Life(Type 8) (Ikkinz Trial)
Trinket of the Archfiends(Type 8) (Qvic)
Froststone of Health(Type 8) (LDon Raid)
Scion's Shard of Death Chants(type 8) (LDoN Raid)
Graycloud Gem of Health (Type 7) (DoN)
Ancient Life Root Stone (Type 7,8) (DoN)
HP+45
Radiant Kyanite of (X) (Type 7,8) (tradeskill)

HP+40
Cracked Sandstone of Fortitude(Type 8) (Qvic)
Aura of Discord(Type 7) (Dunno where drops)
Radiant Coal of Prowess(Type 8) (LDoN merchant)
Solid Coal of Prowess(Type 7)

HP+35
Notched Sandstone of Health(Type 8) (Kod`Taz)
Dusty Mudstone of Life(Type 8) (Kod`Taz/Ikkinz Trial)
Runed Stone Worker Finger(Type 8) (Yxtta)

HP+30
Gem of Bolstered Power(Type 7) (Tipt)
Sparkling Gem of Protection(Type 7) (Tipt)
Cipher of Veeshan(Type 7,8) (Skyfire new VP key quest)
Brilliant Kyanite of (X)(Type 7,8) (tradeskill)

HP+25
Chunk of Warm Brimstone(Type 7,8) (DoN - Bloodfields opening quest)

HP+20
Radiant Pebble of Perfection(Type 8) (LDoN Merchant)
Onyx Pebble of Perfection(Type 7) (LDoN merchant)

[Phantron]

35 AC augs drop off LDoN raids that essentially no one does (I heard Dima tries to get people to do them, but that's about it).

The AC aug progression ends at the single group level. Flamestone Shield X 4 (25AC), Shard of the Guardian X5 (25 AC 25 HP), Illslain Enforce Medal (30 AC 30 HP), and some 25 AC I saw Dima linked are all 1 group and that covers 11 slots. Consider that you still need HP augs to cover spellshield/dotshield/stun resist this means you can pretty much have 25+ AC on every slot. Even Blessed Shard can be considered one group, and certainly even for casuals Primals are nowhere in the same league as raid encounter that drops 90+ HP augs minus Mshas.

If you go with HP, you get ~90 HP now from the hardest one group thing. You can get stuff that gives you more than 90 HP from raids. Thus progression is preserved. But with AC, there is nothing above 30 AC, and indeed nothing above 25 AC unless you consider Primals as high end raiding.

[BerekAB]

I have an aug with more than 90hp and I've never raided. You seem to be confusing time consuming and unavailable. There has been raiding content available for over 2 years that is fully instanced and if you don't have anything you want from that content it's because you're not willing to put the effort into getting those items and it's no longer a flaw of itemization, simply a lack of effort on your part.


That's from raiding content as well, 197ac BP is possible, just have to make the effort to get it.

[Phantron]

I'm guessing you don't know what LDoN raids (which even the most hardcore AC guy don't have) or Last Blood augs (which is more like an armor) are otherwise you wouldn't have brought them up.

But while we're on this subject, Last Blood augs are another example of how whoever is itemizing the AC have no idea what's going on. For example:

Monk Anguish Leg - http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=70901 - 48 AC

Any last blood Aug - 45 AC

If AC is supposed to be an important stat, why is it perfectly fine to have an Aug with more AC than most pieces of leather or silk armor? The only way I can see this make sense is whoever itemized the AC figured that AC is meaningless so there's nothing wrong with having an aug with more AC than some class's anguish armor.

[Phantron]

Here's one of our resident guys who swear by AC, Velle, who is 2nd on AC on EQRankings

http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profil...26&resize=true

Let's count what AC aug he uses:

5 Shard of Guardian (Dreadspire 1 group)
4 Flamestone shield (RSS 1 group)
Blessed Shard (Primals in Yxtta)
3X20 AC from GoD (1 groupable)
1X20 AC from OoW (1 groupable)
Illsalin Enforcer Medal (1 group hard task from DoD)

I don't consider BiC a HP or an AC aug. So where's the extra effort put in in raids to obtain the AC augs again? Notice every one of those aug is 1 groupable (Primal's difficulty can be considered 1 groupable now).

[BerekAB]

LDoN raids were the wave of the future.

First fully instanced raiding because cockblocking had to go.
De-emphasized the tank because focusing gearing up on two tanks had to go.
Instituted strict raid caps because 72+ man raiding had to go.
Created more dynamic raiding because gamepad autofire and afk had to go.

All this is part of end game raiding now, but when LDoN came out there was a huge backlash from top end guilds because they liked some or all of those things and weren't ready for 21st century raiding yet.

Everything you hated about LDoN is part of the current end-game and if you hate the current end-game just quit, if you don't go pay tribute to the expansion that revolutionized the game even though you weren't ready for it when it came out and upgrade some of your augs at the same time.

Velle has a top end profile and it can still be upgraded from LDoN raids, there is certainly no requirement to do that content but it's an option. The only profile ahead of Velle (Whazzup) does have one of the 35ac LDoN augs and Warriors many places behind those two have tanked Demi-plane content.

[Velle]

of course I did some LDoN raids Lost lottos..... It's hard to drag ppl down to do LDoN raids for just AC augs (only other aug worth is dmg +5 aug which I have on my omm 2hb)

[Eriatha Egan]

As much as I'd like to see big time AC augs drop from raid bosses, I can see why they don't. Even with some of the other classes boosts in mitigation, high amounts of AC still only makes sense for three classes: Warriors, Paladins, and Shadowknights. HP/Mana augs can be applied universally to all classes equally, which is something AC cannot, and will not ever do.

I think it also has to do with the fact that I doubt Sony wants to increase AC levels on tanks in large amounts. We basically went from 2200-2300ac warriors in endgame PoP to 3000ac warriors in Tacvi/MPG. While the top warriors tend to focus strictly on hitpoints, it does not mean AC does nothing for you. Baean is an AC oriented warriors, and from his observations, he tanks just as well as a 15k+ does. Huge AC makes single group content drastically easier, and not to mention current raid mobs are starting to swing back to their PoP-like days. That is, huge DI's with relatively low to moderate DB values. Zi-Thuuli is a quad 7366 hitter, but his minimum hit is only in the 400's. You put a 4000ac warrior up against Zi-Thuuli and I guarantee you he'll be chump change.

[Rayde]

hp +65 blighted stone of the heathen, (unrest instance)

[Brutul]

Personally I like the fact that the best augs come from 1-group content. I am a raider, although not even a moderately high-end one, and a piece of loot that I can use dropping in an exp group just doesn't happen. If you have your AA max or near max, then what is the point of doing anything 1-group, especially going to high end challenging zones? If I am in Anguish gear and have 1300 AA, why would I ever go to Dreadspire to exp, or anywhere else for that matter? To farm time-level loot for my twinks? Personally, I would much rather have a chance at cool items in my exp group for my main, so I think that top augments coming as rare drops in the most challenging exp grind zone in the game is a great thing.

[Phantron]

You simply can't have such an important part of tanking, namely AC, come from just one group stuff. I don't know of any other stat-oriented advancement in EQ that solely progresses on the single group and not from raiding. If the best augs come from one group, why have raid mobs drop augs?

Eritha brings up how AC augs will only be good for tanks. That is exactly the problem. If raid bosses drop 45 AC 5% stun resist aug, not only is this grossly overpowered for the tanking classes, but the same aug is also worthless to just about everyone else. You don't see a 175 HP aug being War/Pal/SK only. Why is it if a 45 AC exists it might as well be War/Pal/SK only?

What needs to happen is that AC from augs needs to go on a fixed diminishing ratio that is independent of the class using it. Flameshield Stone is 25 AC all/all and Gemstone of Fiery Might is 75 HP all/all and they drop in the same difficulty area. Thus you'd expect these two items to have roughly the same value. Since AC is only good for tanking, you'd expect 25 AC to provide more tanking benefit than 75 HP. However currently it works out that 25 AC is vastly better than 75 HP for the 3 aforementioned tanking classes, and on the other end 75 HP is vastly better than 25 AC for most other classes because different classes get different amounts of diminishing returns. What should happen is that any class that chooses to use 25 AC over 75 HP aug should see better tanking improvement from 25 AC over 75 HP. Of course this still doesn't solve the problem that some classes don't tank much period, but at the very least the benefit should be identical when they do tank.

Yesterday I got linked the loot for 30 AC 30 HP mission. We already know what the melee result is (30 AC 30 HP) but the caster result? 35 HP/mana 2% stun resist aug. Once again, this is the same mission so you'd expect the caster/melee rewards to be comparable relative to their classes, so is 5 HP/mana 2% stun resist the same value to a caster as 30 AC is to a melee? Can you seriously say this is right?

[Bruenorg]

Originally Posted by Brutul

Personally I like the fact that the best augs come from 1-group content. I am a raider, although not even a moderately high-end one, and a piece of loot that I can use dropping in an exp group just doesn't happen. If you have your AA max or near max, then what is the point of doing anything 1-group, especially going to high end challenging zones? If I am in Anguish gear and have 1300 AA, why would I ever go to Dreadspire to exp, or anywhere else for that matter? To farm time-level loot for my twinks? Personally, I would much rather have a chance at cool items in my exp group for my main, so I think that top augments coming as rare drops in the most challenging exp grind zone in the game is a great thing.

I have to agree. In the case of AC augs, it's really great IMO that most of the best AC augs are available to single groups because it also helps the casual players bring their non-raid gear, which typically has much lower AC, to a comparable level.

[BerekAB]

Velle has 1779 raw ac (or 1689 if 90 avoidance is included in that total).
Velle has 383 raw ac from augs.
Unless you think she singled grouped her Glad Armor and such then AC doesn't only come from single group content even if you don't do LDoN raids.

Your line of thought about every class getting equal benefit is just truly bizarre, unless something has changed recently the Warrior is getting just the aug and the caster is getting the aug and making progress towards a Level 70 spell, the Warrior reward might even need a boost if you wanted to make the drops truly fair.

I'm glad everyone has a choice betweena 25ac and 75hp aug and as long as some people prefer either aug then quite possibly the rewards don't need to be changed, even if a Warrior would never ever take a 175mana and end aug over a 25ac and hp aug it doesn't mean the 175 mana/end aug needs a boost.

[Phantron]

The underlying equipment makes no difference because every Warrior ought to be wearing the same thing because there is no tradeoff in AC vs HP on high end gear.

Everyone benefits the same from a 175 HP aug relative to their class. In your world maybe 175 HP augs should be War/Pal/SK only, which is how the AC augs are.

The 30/30 doesn't even drop from a level 70 spell mission and there is every reason to believe that the caster and melee rewards are comparable, which would mean 30 AC is as valuable to a melee as 5 HP and 2% stun resist to a caster (relatively) which I think even you can comprehend is absolutely absurd.