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Relative hate values (updated for 1.7 patch)

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Old 09-11-2005   #1
Cop
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Relative hate values (updated for 1.7 patch)

The tests were performed by proximity aggro'ing a level 56 melee mob with the warrior. I first found a ratio of damagehate:healinghate, a number that came out to 4.0 in defensive stance with my warrior/priest combo. For the trials, I would perform each skill anywhere form 1 to 6 or more times, then begin healing. At the point the priest got aggro, I summed the healing, subtracted (damage dealt * 4.0), and divided by the number of times the skill was done. Each trial has been repeated at least 10 times, and my results were extremely consistent. This is primarily useful as a guide to relative hate values.

This is the post's third iteration. Data has been retested thoroughly and updated as of the 1.7 patch on the test server.

If you see an errors please point them out.


Assumptions
  • All healing spells create the same hate per point healing. Crudely confirmed before tests.
  • Hate does not decay over time. Observation suggests this holds true.
  • Initial hate is negligible (a 50 point heal pulls aggro)

Findings
  • They fixed shield slam! Before 1.7 the innate hate value worked out to around 200, it is now closer to 1000. See its entry for the test results as of the 1.7 test patch.
  • The damage done by skills (such as the 450-550 of shield slam) incurs hate equal to normal melee damage. Each skill has a set amount of hate attached (I call it "innate" hate) when the skill lands on a mob. The existance of this "innate" hate is determined mainly through crits. A heroic strike crit, for example, will do (innate hate+damage) worth of hate, not (2*total hate).
  • Cleave has extra hate attached to it much like heroic strike.
  • Whirlwind, Mortal Strike, and Bloodthirst have no innate hate.
  • Piercing howl is absolutely zero (or an immesurably low amount of) hate.
  • Sunder armor is the same amount of hate per application, regardless of how many sunders are already on. The same is true for demoralizing shout and thunderclap.
  • The sunder armor debuff seems completely independent of the hate it generates. Hate does not decrease when the debuff wears off and, as mentioned above, multiple applications, even beyond the stackable limit, will give just as much hate as the first.
  • Shield bash damage is independent of the innate hate it produces, as with other skills. Thus, shield bash crits only produce hate equal to the extra 44 or 45 damage.
  • Heroic strike is a surprisingly high amount of hate, and has very acceptable efficiency with talents, against low armor, and with a fast weapon.
  • The shield block/revenge combo is only marginally better for hate generation than sunder armor (with talents). The exception is that shield block (with talents) often forces two consecutive revenge openings, and the mitigated damage is an obvious bonus.
  • Shield slam was about 200 innate hate in 1.6. It is close to 1000 now.
  • Skills and attacks create roughly 1.65 times more hate in defensive stance than in battle stance.

Notes
  • No number is exact. This is more of a loose guide.
  • I was very careful and methodical in my tests. Overhealing and other interfering factors were kept to a minimum (hopefully zero!).
  • All attacks were done by a warrior with defiance and in defensive stance unless otherwise noted.
  • The warrior has improved shield bash and does not have any level of improved revenge.
  • All healing was done by a holy/disc priest with the 20% threat reducing talent and inspiration (which I have determined to be aggro-free).
  • With this setup, tests were performed beforehand to determine the healing/damage hate ratio. 1 point of damage = 4.0 points of healing = 4.0 hate
  • Hate per point of rage does include damage.
  • There is a margin of error, but I tried to minimize it as much as possible. The primary source of error is the fact that the minimum healing increment is 52.





Skill Name
-Rage cost.
-Listed damage before armor is applied, taken directly from the tooltip.
-Attached or "innate" hate. This is completely independent of the damage the skill produces. It is purely a hidden "bonus blast" of hate when the skill lands successfully.
-Total hate including damage under varying armor levels.
-Hate per point of rage. This number indicates efficiency if you're wondering how best to dump your rage. Once again, it does include damage.
Formula used in #5: [ ((HateMin + HateMax)/2) + (((DamageMin + DamageMax)/2) * (1-DamageReduction) * 4.0 ] / RageCost
-perks: qualitative reasons to use a certain skill
-negs: negative stuff about the skill






Revenge
5 rage
64-78 damage
1200-1250 "innate" hate
  • 0% Damage Reduction
  • 1510 total hate
  • 302 hate per point rage
  • 25% Damage Reduction
  • 1440 total hate
  • 288 hate per point rage
  • 50% Damage Reduction
  • 1370 total hate
  • 273 hate per point rage
perks: very high efficiency, chance to stun with talents, fair damage for rage cost
negs: unreliable, and often requires use of a 10 rage skill to allow its use






Shield Slam
30 rage
450-550 damage
925-975 "innate" hate
  • 0% Damage Reduction
  • 2950 total hate
  • 98 hate per point rage
  • 25% Damage Reduction
  • 2450 total hate
  • 82 hate per point rage
  • 50% Damage Reduction
  • 1950 total hate
  • 65 hate per point rage
perks: 50% chance to dispell 1 magic effect, good damage, much improved efficiency as of test patch 1.7
negs: efficiency is very dependent on armor






Thunderclap
20 rage
103 damage (in battle stance, hate modifier of 2.25)
200-250 "innate" hate
  • 0% Damage Reduction
  • 460 total hate
  • 23 hate per point rage
  • 25% Damage Reduction
  • 400 total hate
  • 20 hate per point rage
  • 50% Damage Reduction
  • 340 total hate
  • 17 hate per point rage
perks: 10% attack rate debuff, affects up to 4 targets
negs: must be used in battle stance, breaks CC






Sunder Armor
12 rage (15 without talents)
no damage
1025-1075 "innate" hate
1050 total hate
88 hate per point rage (70 without talents)
perks: lowers target armor, no cooldown
negs: Some claim aggro is spotty with sunder armor when the debuff gets pushed off, when the debuff expires, or when it's stacked more than 5 times. My findings suggest none of this is true.






Shield Bash
10 rage
45 damage (ignores armor)
725-775 "innate" hate
930 total hate
93 hate per point rage
perks: spell interruption, silences for 3 seconds with talents
negs: long cooldown, spamming of the skill means it won't be available when needed






Demorializing Shout
10 rage
no damage
165-185 "innate" hate
175 total hate
18 hate per point rage
perks: attack power debuff, unlimited targets
negs: very low rage efficiency







Heroic Strike at 3 rage per swing
15 rage (18 without talents)
138 damage
590-630 "innate" hate
  • 0% Damage Reduction
  • 1160 total hate
  • 77 hate per point rage (65 without talents)
  • 25% Damage Reduction
  • 1020 total hate
  • 68 hate per point rage (57 without talents)
  • 50% Damage Reduction
  • 890 total hate
  • 59 hate per point rage (49 without talents)
perks: good damage, cooldown is weapon speed, doesn't interfere with global cooldown
negs: hinders rage production from attacks, is on-next-attack so it prevents the use of other skills if you wait for it to fire






Heroic Strike at 7 rage per swing
19 rage (22 without talents)
138 damage
590-630 "innate" hate
  • 0% Damage Reduction
  • 1160 total hate
  • 61 hate per point rage (53 without talents)
  • 25% Damage Reduction
  • 1020 total hate
  • 54 hate per point rage (47 without talents)
  • 50% Damage Reduction
  • 890 total hate
  • 47 hate per point rage (40 without talents)
perks: good damage, cooldown is weapon speed, doesn't interfere with global cooldown
negs: hinders rage production from attacks, is on-next-attack so it prevents the use of other skills if you wait for it to fire






Cleave at 3 rage per swing
23 rage
50 damage (110 with talents)
370-420 "innate" hate
  • 0% Damage Reduction
  • 590 total hate (830 with talents)
  • 26 hate per point rage (36 with talents)
  • 25% Damage Reduction
  • 540 total hate (720 with talents)
  • 23 hate per point rage (31 with talents)
  • 50% Damage Reduction
  • 490 total hate (610 with talents)
  • 21 hate per point rage (27 with talents)
perks: hits two targets, cooldown is weapon speed, more than doubled efficiency if a second enemy is in frontal arc, fair damage, doesn't interfere with global cooldown
negs: hinders rage production from attacks, is on-next-attack so it prevents the use of other skills if you wait for it to fire






Cleave at 7 rage per swing
27 rage
50 damage (110 with talents)
370-420 "innate" hate
  • 0% Damage Reduction
  • 590 total hate (830 with talents)
  • 22 hate per point rage (31 with talents)
  • 25% Damage Reduction
  • 540 total hate (720 with talents)
  • 20 hate per point rage (27 with talents)
  • 50% Damage Reduction
  • 490 total hate (610 with talents)
  • 18 hate per point rage (23 with talents)
perks: hits two targets, cooldown is weapon speed, more than doubled efficiency if a second enemy is in frontal arc, fair damage, doesn't interfere with global cooldown
negs: hinders rage production from attacks, is on-next-attack so it prevents the use of other skills if you wait for it to fire






Bloodrage
20 rage generated
337 damage to a level 60 player (168 with talents)
325-345 "innate" hate
perks: generates a good amount of rage
negs: the mob must be focused on you for it to create aggro, takes hp, less with talents





Final words
Shield slam is very effective in its improved form, especially in raid situations where rage is hard to spend. Revenge is best used whenever possible, as any warrior could have told you before.

Although it may be unrelated to this thread, protection warriors need a tanking edge of more than 10% armor. Managing hate is the only thing protection warriors have a clear advantage in, but honestly, in the raiding game any warrior can hold aggro just fine. I came up with the idea of removing anticipation and replacing it with a high-tier protection talent that adds 33% to defense from items, but...well, that probably won't happen.

Certain skills like shield slam heavily favor low armor targets. The skill is immensely more useful on a fully sunderered or naturally low armor monster.

And finally, note that the 4.0 healing to damage ratio is only useful for a protection warrior in defensive stance with a priest that has the -20% threat talent. That number is more of a reference point for measuring everything else.



Thank you to everyone who helped me make corrections and adjustments along the way, especially Greysen and Olona.
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Old 09-11-2005   #2
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Good work.
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Old 09-11-2005   #3
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Nice, now I don't have to worry about updating it. ^^ Thanks for posting your findings cop, it's an excellent start to the aggro system.
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Old 09-12-2005   #4
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Thanks Cop!

Cliffnotes:

Skills by total hate generated on a single target (50% mob dmg reduction):
1. Shield Slam - 1950 total hate.
2. Revenge - 1370 total hate.
3. Sunder Armor - 1050 total hate.
4. Shield Bash - 930 total hate.
5. Heroic Strike - 890 total hate.
6. Cleave - 490 total hate.
7. Thunder Clap -340 total hate.
8. Bloodrage - 335 total hate.
9. Demoralizing Shout - 175 total hate.

Skills by hate/rage efficiency on a single target (50% mob dmg reduction):
1. Revenge - 273 hate per rage.
2. Shield Bash - 93 hate per rage.
3. Sunder Armor - 70(88) hate per rage.
4. Shield slam- 65 hate per rage.
5. Heroic Strike (fast weapon) - 59(49) hate per rage.
6. Cleave (fast weapon) - 21(27) hate per rage.
7. Demoralizing shout - 18 hate per rage.
8. Thunder Clap - 17 hate per rage.

Regular physical damage in def stance (with defiance): 4.0 hate per point of damage.

1 Hate = 1 point of healing by a Priest with 20% threat reduction talent.


Edit: P.S. Since your original tests, there have been some anectodal comments about hate being variable based on when someone enters combat (stuff like 1700 damage needed to out-aggro 1000 damage). Is it safe to assume the relative timing of each trial in your tests was pretty consistent? Have you observed this "time joining fight affecting hate" phenomenon yourself?

P.P.S. Have you had a chance to check out the (very techincal) discussion of your results over at the Lurker Lounge? link

Last edited by Olon97; 09-12-2005 at 06:30 PM.
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Old 09-13-2005   #5
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Yeah.. as to Cormac's stuff, he does have some very valid points about not being able to use this to crunch accurate numbers in all situations. I don't think that makes this anywhere nearly invalid, however it does reduce it to something more of an "aggro snapshot" of this particular level mob, using his aggro and healing methods. You may not be able to show exact values useable for all mobs with this, but it definetely shows their values in relation to one another. I doubt cop would've posted consistant results if they weren't. ^^
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Old 09-13-2005   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysen
Yeah.. as to Cormac's stuff, he does have some very valid points about not being able to use this to crunch accurate numbers in all situations. I don't think that makes this anywhere nearly invalid, however it does reduce it to something more of an "aggro snapshot" of this particular level mob, using his aggro and healing methods. You may not be able to show exact values useable for all mobs with this, but it definetely shows their values in relation to one another. I doubt cop would've posted consistant results if they weren't. ^^
Yeah, Cormac's comments dissuaded me from trying to modify damage meters UI mod to be "aggro meters". I don't think Cop could generate the quantity of tests required to post these results without at least inadvertently getting fairly consistent in the pacing of the tests. As long as the methodology between trials was consistent, the relative skill vs. skill performance is definitely valid, and definitely appreciated.
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Old 10-10-2005   #7
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I've been meaing to post here regarding this.

The major flaw I see in these numbers is that they disregard the effects of crits, deep wounds, impale, flurry, bonus attacks from sword spec, etc. All of these additional sources of dps increase the agro generated from damage abilties. (Aside: mortal strike and bloodthirst numbers for offtanks would be useful.)

The attacks affected by this ignoring Impale are:
Revenge : cheapest way to trigger deep wounds/flurry, minor hate bonus on crits
Shield Slam : most expensive way to trigger deep wounds/flurry, huge hate bonus on crits
Sunder Armor : None. However, increases hate of all other attacks and crits. Should always have 5 up
Shield Bash : Second cheapest way to trigger deep wounds/flurry, extra 45 damage from crits
Heroic Strike : No change in deep wounds/flurry, extra 138 damage from crits
Cleave : If it hits 2 targets, far better than heroic strike. Extra attack can trigger deep wounds/flurry.

Mortal Strike/Bloodthirst : Both expensive ways to trigger deep wounds/flurry. Crit agro can approach crit shield slam. Agro is highly dependent on gear and scales with gear more than any other ability.
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Old 10-10-2005   #8
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Just a note about Revenge. I find (anecdotal, I realize) that a good helping of dodge/parry/block skill mods and talents make it pop fairly regularly without needing to use shield block. Very handy earlier in a fight and hey, it's mitigation/evasion. Win-win.
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Old 10-11-2005   #9
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Sunder Armor Hate?

Just a little confused with the wording of this.

"The sunder armor debuff seems completely independent of the hate it generates. Hate does not decrease when the debuff wears off and, as mentioned above, multiple applications, even beyond the stackable limit, will give just as much hate as the first."

Does this mean that 1 sunder armor application, being 1050 hate, is that same as 6 applications, meaning the total would be 1050 hate? Or do es the hate of sunder continuely stack, no matter the number of applications?
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Old 10-11-2005   #10
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It continually stacks on each successful Sunder.

Generally after 5 though you just hit it every now and then to keep it active. It will continue to add hate if you continue to spam it. It just does zero damage.

I usually start HSing at that point so I can contribute some damage in the process. Though admittedly, I have improved HS and not improved Sunder.
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Old 10-11-2005   #11
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it means that the hate of "sunder armor" is attached to the hit and not to the effect (the icon that appears on the mob). So if the icon deappear you won't loose the aggro that you have built with the "sunder armor" attacks, samely, the effect is actually sbdivised into five level, but the aggro isn't linked to them either since it isn't linked to the effect at all.

So it means that if you apply "sunder armor" once you will have 1050 hate, if you apply it twice you will have 2100 hate, and if you apply it ten times then you will have 10500 hate (even if latter five will overight the first five in the effect).
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Old 10-11-2005   #12
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Do both.

Since the 1.7 patch, you can buffer heroic strikes to fire in between repeated sunders. Was a lot easier to fire off big crit heroic strikes when I was using a 2.5 speed weapon, but lately, since I switched to a 1.9 speed weapon, its a bit trickier to keep Heroic Strike buffered in, but its that much more aggro that I'm building so thats always a plus.

Gone are the days where I have oodles of rage, but no idea what to do with it all. Even Arms specced, if I'm not careful, I can fire off enough abilities to overtake our protection tank's aggro.
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Old 10-11-2005   #13
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Julie's Dagger + imp HS talent = old beta taunt button

ok maybe not as cool (or intstant) as beta taunt was but its definatly a warrior "I WIN" button once you have 5 sunders on the mob.
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Old 10-13-2005   #14
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I finally bagged Frostguard today.

Was doing an UBRS run and some other warrior kept taking aggro off me with his Silent Fang. This was after I'd been slapping sunder, revenge, etc on the mob for a few seconds.

Needless to say, I pulled my own Silent Fang out of my bag and all my problems disappeared.


I can't HS for quite as much, and have to be a lot more careful of my pace, but the new 1.8 buff to fast weapons definitely is nice.
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Old 10-13-2005   #15
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I would like to point out that the 1.8 change modified instant attacks, not HS.

Unless it was stealth changed.
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