Expansion 19 Disc/AA wishlist

[Varalla]

1 tanking stance and 2 DPS stances?
We're a fucking DPS class now!?

I think what Elidroth fails to understand is that we would prefer DW to be our tanking stance.

You know. Like it used to be.

[Battleblade]

What people whp favor DW for DPS and for tanking (which is how things once were - DW 24/7) fail to realize is:

1. We are tanks who thanks to our heavy armor, etc. can survive battle with the most dangerous creatures in Norrath.

2. We are tanks and shield AC not being subject to the softcap and later Shield Block made it the heaviest of heavy armor a very long time ago.

A lot of Warriors struggled to use shields vs the most challenging content for a very long time. An early design error (a member of the TANK archetype not preferring shield use vs. challenging content!!!) got addressed. One sees Warriors comfortably tanking with shields - we have for 2, 3? years now. It's the most natural thing for a heavy plate tank imaginable.

Originally Posted by drenath

Lovely. From the SK/Ranger chat:

<@Elidroth> and both knights should be getting stronger as tanks too

See my opinion about additional ranks of Phalanx in another thread on this site. IF one wanted to elevate knights, one necessary step would be to lessen the impact of Final Stand.

Warriors are masters of offense and defensive tactics - he disagrees, he ignores the fact we were the reference class from which true DPSers got 110% of our DPS and non-DPSers 80% or less. And ignores that when 2Hdr damage bonus calculation method changed it was made clear the less melee DPS for knights compared to Warriors and other pure melee was one of the costs of having a spellbook.

Defensive being worthwhile vs. the most dangerous creature in Norrath and not worthwhile vs. low DI run of the mill group content experience mobs - a BRILLIANT solution to a promise made to the Warrior class - he disagrees. On his own time he worked on removing Defensive from the game.

Used to play a Warrior. Used to. We still do, kinda too bad for us under the circumstances, neh??

You wanna lament changes to the way things used to be, lament our class description being trampled.

[drenath]

Originally Posted by Varalla

1 tanking stance and 2 DPS stances?
We're a fucking DPS class now!?

I think what Elidroth fails to understand is that we would prefer DW to be our tanking stance.

You know. Like it used to be.

I don't think we're going to ever be at the point where we never use a shield (nor do I really want that) but I'd like to see our survivability improved to the point that we shouldn't need a shield for the vast majority of group content. Certain rough named, sticky situations or NPC specials, great. Gives me a reason to loot/aug a shield and pop long cooldown agro stuff.

Everything else, we should be able to bust out the DW and give back a little extra hurt. Right now, not only is it less DPS but I can't even DW against single pulled trash mobs without my healer giving me a "dude, you're getting raped" over voice chat or ending up at my bind point when I've got a merc healer because the Mage clicked a modrod mid fight.

[Battleblade]

Originally Posted by drenath

I don't think we're going to ever be at the point where we never use a shield (nor do I really want that) but I'd like to see our survivability improved to the point that we shouldn't need a shield for the vast majority of group content. Certain rough named, sticky situations or NPC specials, great. Gives me a reason to loot/aug a shield and pop long cooldown agro stuff.

Everything else, we should be able to bust out the DW and give back a little extra hurt. Right now, not only is it less DPS but I can't even DW against single pulled trash mobs without my healer giving me a "dude, you're getting raped" over voice chat or ending up at my bind point when I've got a merc healer because the Mage clicked a modrod mid fight.

I prefer current content, even the vast majority of current group content to be challenging. Challenging enough that all three of the classes that are members of the heavy plate tank archetype use a shield when tanking.

Challenging enough that groups seek out TANKS equipped as tanks and aren't comfortable having Mage pets, Beastlord pets, Monks, or what have you operate as tanks. That kind of content and the tanking requirements is good for tanks.

Content that's trivial enough that a Warrior can DW it is bad for tanks.

BUT such content does exist. People can DW light blues and barely blues in previous content. People can farm tradeskill drops. And Warriors (and knights) are not always the tank. There IS a role for DPS setups and as I posted when calling attention to the indisputable fact that shields were not sufficiently practical for Warriors (prior to Shield Specialist) a DPS augged DPS 2H very much ought to out damage S&B when we are not tanking.

Dude you're getting raped is appropriate if you are tanking current content as if you were a Ranger or a Berserker and not tanking it like a tank. It's approprate for us in a DPS setup and it's appropriate for knight in their DPS setup (wielding a 2Hander).

But, I didn't loot 2-1H DPS auuged DPS weapons and a DPS augged 2H DPS weapon cause I didn't want to use them when DPSing (and not tanking). I want to be set up to DPS when DPSing (and not tanking) just as I want to be setup for tanking (and doing reasonable DPS) when I tank.

Oh, in the what weapon aug thread it was established that VoA 2H DPS was about the same as S&B DPS (DMG augged damage 1Hander - something you'd never use to tank) - not that (not set up for tanking) S&B was better. What's really bugging the DW fans is that S&B is tanking challenging content effective from a (reasonable) DPS, aggro, and mitigation standpoint. They want DW to fill that role for the vast majority of content - while kicking 2H to the curb.

Maybe not DW 24/7. "Only" DW 23:50/7

[Rildoan]

Originally Posted by Battleblade

What people whp favor DW for DPS and for tanking (which is how things once were - DW 24/7) fail to realize is:

Fail to realize that we're tanks?

What's more likely, that the people who want DW for tanking don't know what they're doing, or that Battleblade doesn't know what the hell he's talking about?

Or to put it another way, especially since you quoted Shiftee over the bard song nerf as Elidroth's excuse to nerf warriors:

Shiftee (EQ forums):
"When the majority of people in this thread disagrees with you, are they trolling or are you?

"My bet is on you."

Therefore:
D. Battleblade doesn't know what the hell he's talking about

Originally Posted by Battleblade

1. We are tanks who thanks to our heavy armor, etc. can survive battle with the most dangerous creatures in Norrath.

And being a tank wearing heavy armor requires our using S&B? To DPS?

D. Battleblade doens't know what the hell he's talking about

Originally Posted by Battleblade

2. We are tanks and shield AC not being subject to the softcap and later Shield Block made it the heaviest of heavy armor a very long time ago.

You don't need S&B to be a good heavy armor-wearing tank. Any fat idiot from the ghetto can do that. What you really need is intelligence... and yours are sorely lacking.

Originally Posted by Battleblade

tired S&B propaganda bullshit 1, S&B or lack thereof edition

Complacent and lazy idiots using S&B 24/7, even during times when they are not required to tank anything. Then watch them complain that devs are nerfing their DPS and threatening to close their accounts.

Originally Posted by Battleblade

tired S&B propaganda bullshit 2, Phalanx edition

"I'm going to just make shit up and spin it so it's remotely believable to my target audience", where the audience consists of you alone.

D. Battleblade doesn't know what the hell he's talking about

Originally Posted by Battleblade

tired S&B propaganda bullshit 3, more tired regurgitated recycled bullshit edition

Yawner.

Originally Posted by Battleblade

tired S&B propaganda bullshit 4, Pot calling the kettle black edition

Playing a weak assed paladin on his spare time and using that lopsided experience to somehow argue that he knows every possible knight viewpoint, then presents ideas that ultimately nerf the warrior class to oblivion while claiming to be a well-reasoned voice and branding dissenters as twin leek-twirling rangers.

Elidroth might be wrong in some ways over what ails the warrior class, but his failings pale to the grotesque destructive influence presented by Battleblade, who plays a warrior.

A very horrible one at that.

Originally Posted by Battleblade

You wanna lament changes to the way things used to be, lament our class description being trampled.

You wanna lament changes to the way things used to be, how about removing yourself from TSW entirely.

Your advocating that warriors use S&B 24/7 is proof that you know nothing about what really ails the warrior class, treasonous vermin.

[Rildoan]

Originally Posted by Battleblade

tired S&B propaganda bullshit 5, yet more tired regurgitated recycled bullshit edition

Unlike you, I prefer current challenging content where I can tank with DW most of the time, with S&B as a fallback option... as opposed to your "S&B 24/7" drivel.

Originally Posted by Battleblade

tired S&B propaganda bullshit 6, using non-tanks for current content edition

Try getting this group setup:

S&B Warrior
Ranger with maxed AAs and running glyphs 24/7
Merc healer

Try holding agro against the ranger when the merc's healing behavior severely restricts your ability to do your job as a tank. I've tried it. And guess what - it's impossible. If I switch to DW, I die. If I stay S&B, I lose agro in one tick.

Ever wonder why knights are far and beyond preferred over warriors in group content? Yep, you still don't get it.

D. Battleblade doesn't know what the hell he's talking about

Originally Posted by Battleblade

Content that's trivial enough that a Warrior can DW it is bad for tanks.

Content that's trivial enough that a S&B Warrior becomes a LIABILITY to the group is bad for tanks.

D. Battleblade doesn't know what the hell he's talking about

Originally Posted by Battleblade

There IS a role for DPS setups

That DPS setup is S&B. How much are your Lehman Brothers stocks worth right now?

D. Battleblade doesn't know what the hell he's talking about

Originally Posted by Battleblade

as I posted when calling attention to the indisputable fact that shields were not sufficiently practical for Warriors

That your solution is to bolster S&B at the great expense of rendering DW meaningless for all except utility roles.

Your posts are worse than the so-called EASY BUTTON in EQ.

Originally Posted by Battleblade

Dude you're getting raped is appropriate if you are tanking current content as if you were a Ranger or a Berserker and not tanking it like a tank.

Bullshit.

When rangers can tank current content with DW without getting raped, yet warriors cannot do the same, there is a problem.

When berserkers can tank current content with only their bread-and-butter 2H weps without getting raped, yet warriors cannot do the same with either DW or 2H, there is a problem.

Both of these instances are far more likely than you think.

Originally Posted by Battleblade

It's approprate for us in a DPS setup and it's appropriate for knight in their DPS setup (wielding a 2Hander).

ROFL, what DPS setups? We only have one setup that is worth any weight today: S&B. Knights can still do significant DPS with 2H weps. Warriors must use S&B to turn out impressive DPS parses. Instant, abject FAIL.

Originally Posted by Battleblade

I want to be set up to DPS when DPSing (and not tanking) just as I want to be setup for tanking (and doing reasonable DPS) when I tank.

ROFL, you don't have any weapon setups for DPS and tanking. You use only one: S&B. Pulling a fast one... and failing.

D. Battleblade doesn't know what the hell he's talking about

Originally Posted by Battleblade

Oh, in the what weapon aug thread it was established that VoA 2H DPS was about the same as S&B DPS

No it isn't.

Originally Posted by Battleblade

not that (not set up for tanking) S&B was better.

S&B IS better than all other weapon sets.

D. Battleblade doesn't know what the hell he's talking about

Originally Posted by Battleblade

What's really bugging the DW fans is that S&B is tanking challenging content effective from a (reasonable) DPS, aggro, and mitigation standpoint.

What's really bugging the DW fans is that S&B is being used 24/7 as it's best DPS and best agro. Why do you insist on putting all our eggs in one fucking basket?

You must be one of those people who kept telling people to buy Lehman stock even when the company's going belly-up, because you earn commission selling those toxic assets.

D. That senile fuckwit Battleblade doesn't know what the mind-numbing assfuck he's talking about

[drenath]

Originally Posted by Battleblade

Challenging enough that groups seek out TANKS equipped as tanks and aren't comfortable having Mage pets, Beastlord pets, Monks, or what have you operate as tanks. That kind of content and the tanking requirements is good for tanks.

Content that's trivial enough that a Warrior can DW it is bad for tanks.

That's the mindset that brought us Gates of Discord, Underfoot, plunging subscriber populations and the death of guilds.

Originally Posted by Battleblade

Dude you're getting raped is appropriate if you are tanking current content as if you were a Ranger or a Berserker and not tanking it like a tank. It's approprate for us in a DPS setup and it's appropriate for knight in their DPS setup (wielding a 2Hander).

The defensive abilities of a tank class do not begin and end with what we have equipped in the secondary slot. There are a hundred different areas we are required to invest in to make our class capable of tanking, it makes zero sense that they should all vanish the instant our left hand loses grip on a circular object.

If you only want value in one slot of your itemization - play a Mage.

Originally Posted by Battleblade

What's really bugging the DW fans is that S&B is tanking challenging content effective from a (reasonable) DPS, aggro, and mitigation standpoint. They want DW to fill that role for the vast majority of content - while kicking 2H to the curb.

Maybe not DW 24/7. "Only" DW 23:50/7

What's really bugging the DW fans is that our class is so pathetic we need that 200ac round thing in our left hand to prevent us from exploding like a sally Wizard when trash mobs take a swipe at us. We give up and give forth so much in this game that we should defensively be fucking overpowered in any weapon configuration <- How about that as a vision for the Warrior class.

Shield for tanking hard stuff
2H for maximum DPS
DW somewhere in the middle

Not very difficult

[Battleblade]

Ah, you mistake the mindset that gives tanks group spots instead of pets for GoD?? Hehehe. Tanks used shields in VoA group content. VoA was not GoD.

So long as we are defined as plate wearing tanks, of course I'll value the most effective plate object in the game - Shields. Do you remove your pants when tanking? Why then would you set aside your shield?

You don't see the other tank classes trundling about waving 2Hdrs around. Current content is usually challenging.

"<11@Elidroth> Dre.. DW will not be a tanking stance"

Shield Block got some additional ranks.
You see all three classes that tank using shields in current content.

Move on. This looks to me like thoroughly discussed and settled policy. SOE is unlikely to make current content trivial nor pretend an offhand weapon is a shield. You'll get to use DW in permitting content. You just won't get to DW all of the time (or even necessarily most of the time if you generally do challenging content).

Shield for tanking challenging content (all three tank classes)
2H for DPS (all three tank classes)
DW for DPS (Warrior only)

Not very difficult.

[Rildoan]

More like your continued refusal to allow DW any airtime under the same tired old regurgitated recycled bullshit you call "heavy armor tank in current challenging content".

You already have your mind made up. S&B for tanking and DPS. 2H for neither. DW for neither. Move on? You continue to cling to the past and steadfastly object to the harsh cold reality, that warriors ARE losing ground to knights in the group game because of our overreliance on S&B.

Shut the fuck up.

[drenath]

Originally Posted by Battleblade

Ah, you mistake the mindset that gives tanks group spots instead of pets for GoD??

Rangers Monks and summoned pets weren't tanking in GoD. You see group knights tanking KJH or Kod`Taz? When content is tuned to the difficulty you detail, people play other games instead of EQ. We'd have seen the same in VoA too if it didn't happen to intersect with free to play initiatives.

Originally Posted by Battleblade

You don't see the other tank classes trundling about waving 2Hdrs around. Current content is usually challenging.

Actually I see Knights wielding two handers, daily. In current content. They can do it because their class doesn't suck - they have meaningful tools to supplement their tanking that they can use constantly.

We have ONE good one with a 10 minute refresh, plus a ton of junk with even longer lockouts that we stack up to (sometimes) survive named mobs.

The problem is not shields vs DW, it's utter lack of vision for our class outside of raid named tanking. A vision that hasn't been updated since 1999.

[Rildoan]

Originally Posted by Battleblade

Ah, you mistake the mindset that gives tanks group spots instead of pets for GoD?? Hehehe. Tanks used shields in VoA group content. VoA was not GoD.

It is this mindset of yours that caused Tide to collapse.

It is this mindset of yours that caused your own Dark Horizon to fold.

A traitor within his own guild, actively promoting changes to kill the enjoyment of others and the foreclosure of thousands of accounts so he can play with his favorite "heavy armor shield-bearing tank in current challenging content" edict.

GoD put EQ into decline versus the upstart WoW - blame Battleblade.
UF killed dozens of strong guilds and crippled many more - blame Battleblade.
VoA nearly did the same, were it not for F2P - blame Battleblade.

Not very difficult.

[Varalla]

Originally Posted by drenath

I don't think we're going to ever be at the point where we never use a shield (nor do I really want that) but I'd like to see our survivability improved to the point that we shouldn't need a shield for the vast majority of group content. Certain rough named, sticky situations or NPC specials, great. Gives me a reason to loot/aug a shield and pop long cooldown agro stuff.

Everything else, we should be able to bust out the DW and give back a little extra hurt. Right now, not only is it less DPS but I can't even DW against single pulled trash mobs without my healer giving me a "dude, you're getting raped" over voice chat or ending up at my bind point when I've got a merc healer because the Mage clicked a modrod mid fight.

Hmmmm Yeah.
I'm about at the same train of thought as you now that I think about it.
Named should require a shield.