What has better DPS?

[Magumas]

Was wondering which combination would have a better Dps.. Wielding a Windblade or dualing a Split Blade of Destruction and another 1h such as wind-worn blade or something with that ratio? Also which combination would hold more agro? Thanks,

Mags 57 Troll War


http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=269748

[Slashurr]

windblade IMO

[Jear]

Personaly I hate warriors using windblade. It holds a crappy taunt. and yes I mean crappy. DPS well it is nice for that yes.

[Gnomers]

Really Jear when I used a windblade for group exp I never lost aggro to no one. Hmm I guess one time I did when I was group with a 58 SK when at the time I was level 53. So I guess IT suck cause it didnt hold aggro to a SK that was 5 levels higher than me.

[Jear]

Sorry Gnomers, but I only have experiance as a lvl 65 wizard against a warrior 60+ I can say it agro suxs, becouse I could nuke 2 times (Using draughts) from when the mob was at 80% and still gain agro. This was with 3 lvls in AA that lets me generate less agro. and as such I would only be able to use those two draughts in a fast combat situation that PoV mostly stands for. It is warriors that use weapons as windblade (DPS weap) that makes me wanna get a Hybrid tank sine lvl XX paladin -SK LFG = I know he should have atleast that agro spell. Where as lvl XX warrior = Ummm /w soandso Ohh not guilded or Umm not in an average guild Let me get that SK since he can hold the agro for sure I wouldn't want to get a windblade wielder.

Windblade is good DPS, but agro no sorry it suxs. Might work well when you fight with wizards below lvl 60, but after lvl 60 when we get the spells that are worth something and aren't semi crappy and also after we gain more then the earring of soltice as mana regen, We need tanks epecialy warriors that use weapons that hold good agro. Personaly I never understood why ppl loved Wingblade when you could get a Nadaries lance cheaper (atleast last i looked) and since that lance has a much better agro due to a lure based DoT.

Windblade is nice DPS as I already said, but if you want agro get another weapon. Wizards mages chanters Shamans will love you for it trust me. I talk with alot of them and my friends all agree windblade for agro plz don't. Get a proc weapon /nod

[Gnomers]

Well I guess in tier one it is good enough to hold tuant. That is all I have experience with so far. I am getting a greatstaff of thunder as soon as I can afford one

[Venox]

IMO if you use the SBoD and another 1hs vs a slow weapon that doesn't proc ... hell ... more hits in faster time give you better aggro than 1 hit ever 3 seconds. Just my 2cp ... but don't take my word for it ... *peeks down at sig*


I R retarded ... misread your question. WB has higher DPS.

[Dall18or]

Ignore other posts, Windblade will be more DPS and agro then those weapons listed. If a wizard is going to nuke hard you will lose agro nomatter what weapon you have.

Dallor Hurtingwind
65 Warrior

[Jear]

LOL Sorry, but Dallor what class do you think knows what has the best agro. The class that uses the same weapon over and over. Or the class that is group with lots of tanks and sees a variety of weapons. and also group wizards usualy knows how to controle their agro unless the MT uses crappy weapons. Ofcouse some warriors who test alot of diferent weapons also know alot, but only if their group members do the same thing everytime.
The episode I told about 2 draughts is posibly the situation where a wizards draws the least agro. (two times 950 nukes) and at 80% this should have in an average group given the war 30 secs to gain agro. From any burst agro class will tell you. Windblade suxs. Nadaries lance is alot better due to the fact that it procs. But personaly Frosty is still a good old clasic that I like since it has a very nice agro :)

[Lillyann]

My pt of view is the Windblade is nice for a assist, because no matter how good you say it is, I have had groupies with Windblade and they never stole my aggro (of course they wren't meant to taunt either).

On the other hand, when they don' taunt, I believe the lack of proc makes it great as they never steal aggro *grins*

[Gnomb]

I never had a windblade myself and none of my warrior friends used one so its only from my clerics perspective that i can comment.
I was in a PoD courtyard group back when he was level 55 or 56 and a shadowknight was the groups tank, level 59 or so.
Agro was no big issue, rest of the group was all 2 or 3 levels lower than him including a monk and a 55 epic rogue.
He was playing around a lot with different weapons (he obviously had some higher level friends who borrowed him a bunch of droppable gear).
His favorite was a windblade.
Worked quite well for him til suddenly mobs seemed to ping pong around quite a bunch.
When asked about it he had stopped using his agro spells cause he was lazy as he explained it.
In another group with a 63 warrior (baron title) in PoV when my cleric was 60 or 61 we had major problems with ping pong again.
The 62 druid, a 65 necro and a 60 chanter were drawing a lot of agro.
In the end the windblade equipped warrior left and things went as far as the necro complaining about her in ooc that she should learn about agro from xxxx (a sk).
Ok, the last example is extreme with 3 casters who use high agro nukes/dots/debuffs but I have been in similar groups with knights as tanks or other warriors using different setups with small to no problems.
Believe me, no group will expect a warrior to keep agro 100 percent of the time over the rest of the group, but once the cleric has to heal others except the tank on every single pull it stops being efficient.
With EB weapons things change 'a lot' but even then you cant draw agro as a knight, the thing still has to proc for the effect.
My personal recommendation is to get a 1h combo with some solid ratio and some agro proc (stun, debuff whatever) and switch to a 2hander once debuffs are done by the group and you have established some solid agro.
Yes, ripostes will hurt but once you get to 60+ with some AA's the pain can be lessened considerably.

[Rumblingdeth]

Who has parsed the damage, there are situations where DPS is preffered (like soloing) over aggro. The question was "which is better DPS?" What is the answer to that question, everyone with half a brain knows a proc is better for aggro.
I believe the windblade is superior DPS, and I often used it on raids because I was never MA. But, is the superior DPS been proven, via parses? I switched to a twisted steel bastard sword and had a triple hit of 505,440, and 330! I have seen a 1400+ crippling with disc from a Twisted Steel.

[Gnomb]

I didnt parse it but when i duo with my cleric i almost exclusively use 2hs (Gaudralek) and only switch to 1h for avatar proc.
Aside from less ripostes and the fewer heals needed, dps seems quite a bit higher than my 1h combo and bloodfrenzy (16/20) and Blade of Carnage (15/20) arent too bad as far as 1handers go.

[Dall18or]

I use a windblade myself atm. There are casses where there isa paladin who chain stuns, or one time was grouped with a ranger and his sword proced 7 times in a row, but for the most part I have no trouble to hold agro. I believe the dps is 79 ish. Ill check it later. Think a tiny bit higher. Would depend on a few things. I dont have flurry, and my haste item is only Cloak of Flames, and i have low strength. I have had crit's as high as 1237. Crips have been lower =/

"Windblade will be more DPS and agro then those weapons listed." Is what I said.

"LOL Sorry, but Dallor what class do you think knows what has the best agro. The class that uses the same weapon over and over. Or the class that is group with lots of tanks and sees a variety of weapons." Is what Jear said.

I am not talking about a wide variety of weapons. Im talking about the choices he listed. Split Blade of Destruction, wind-worn blade.

Have it your way, ill stay the same I am not.

Dallor Hurtingwind
65 Warrior

[Rumblingdeth]

My strength is 280, I have 66% self haste (CoF and belt of Marvelous visions) and duo with a cleric sometimes. I may use a Windblade soon to see if it is that good. I have flurry 1 and ambi, will need punishing blade to make it somewhat fair. Next is get this char a twisted steel blade. I use willsapper to slow and off hand a primal. I of course will have to start with the two 1hs/1hp and switch. I also have a 2hander primal, may use it with a ToD to add to a Twisted Steel Blade.

[gulug]

Going back to the original posters question, i would have thought that the windblade would still have a DPS advantage over that combo.

The question of aggro, which this thread has derailed to, is another question altogether and which was not the subject of the original posters post

[Gonaden]

I have a Windblade and also 2 nice 1-handers with procs. After extensive use of both set-ups, I have found that the Windblade cannot keep aggro as well as the 1-handers. Granted the DPS output on the Windblade is higher, which I've ran through a parser to confirm, but its lack of proc and long delay mean it is very easy to lose aggro when using it.

4.4 second delay on the Windblade. If you have a nice haste item and a nice haste buff from your group shammy, it might come down to 2.2 seconds top. Now, say you are unlucky and miss 2 swings with the Windblade (this does indeed happen), thats a potential 6.6 seconds of not generating any aggro whatsoever. Even a single miss is 4.4 seconds of no aggro. When that happens, kiss goodbye to the mob, and start playing ping-pong.

I've found that 2 fast 1-handers, generating small but constant DPS with procs every 20 seconds or so, can hold aggro much more effectively.

Windblade = DPS when you're not MT. Do not use this to maintain aggro.

[schubydog]

I have not used 2hs but I have 2 fleshgrinders and my dps is usually between 60 and 70 in PoN. You can actually see which is better by using a log parser. www.yalp.org is a good one.

[Braeorn]

Again, the question was, "WHAT HAS BETTER DPS?"

Windblade will outdamage that combo by far. I've don tons of parses with it and compared to many DW combos.

Fact is, 2H is superior to most DW combos.

I'll ignore the comments on aggro since it wasn't part of the question...there are numerous other posts that deal with it.

Braeorn Battlekrye
64th Warrior
Povar

[Gonaden]

[i]

I'll ignore the comments on aggro since it wasn't part of the question...there are numerous other posts that deal with it.

Braeorn Battlekrye
64th Warrior
Povar [/B]


Errrr... take a look at the original post, I think you will find this sentence:

"Also which combination would hold more agro?"

[Braeorn]

My bad (/slamsshinswithsword) DOH!

So I'll add in the fact that I would use windblade in most situations unless you have something with TB/EB/Etc. to add with that SBoD.

Unless you're grouping with newbies you really shouldn't have trouble holding agg with windblade. Ya, its not the most uber taunt rod in EQ but I seem to use it with little problem in BoT, PoTactics, PoS, PoV etc.

If slower chain casts vs. resists you'll be slamming yer shield key and running around chasing the mob but for the most parts windy will do you just fine. The added benefit as most will tell you is in Tier2+ the ripostes can rip any MT apart in little time...especially at max haste.

Braeorn

[Khumak]

I upgraded from 2 fleshgrinders to windblade and windblade did more aggro and dps by a pretty wide margin. When I got my Epic I switched to that because even though my dps dropped significantly, my aggro was a little higher.

If epic proc was unresistable, aggro would have been much higher than windblade but it's usually resisted. IMO don't bother with 1 handers unless you can get a couple with ratios around 15/20 and 1 of them with TB or EB.

To the wizard complaining that windblade aggro sucks, try fighting with a warrior using 1 handers with less aggro than the warrior epic and then compare that to his aggro with windblade. I think you'll find windblade preferable. Nobody is saying you should use a windblade if you've got an EB weapon, that would be stupid. People considering a windblade don't have EB weapons.

[Eriatha Egan]

If epic proc was unresistable, aggro would have been much higher than windblade but it's usually resisted. IMO don't bother with 1 handers unless you can get a couple with ratios around 15/20 and 1 of them with TB or EB.

As a Magician (My main), I can tell you that spells/procs have identical agro if they're resisted or not. If I lob my Firebolt of Tallon spell at a mob and he completely resists it, he's going to be equally pissed off at me if it had landed for full damage.

It also works both ways. Crits do not generate any more agro than a normally landed cast. If I crit for 4300 damage, it's going to generate the same amount of agro as if it did not crit, doing only 2300 points of damage.

[Phantron]

I have never had any aggro whatsoever attributed to missing or delay.

A weapon with good ratio will hold aggro better than a weapon with less ratio (ignoring procs). Unless you're comparing like say a 125/100 to a 15/20 X 2 (then yes the first weapon might lose aggro in between swings), the speed difference is irrelevant. Actually, the slower a weapon is, the BETTER is it at aggroing. Here's why:

Assuming all aggro attributed to ratio is based on the weapon damage linearly, i.e. 20/15 weapon creates twice the aggro than 10/15 per swing.

Let's say we have a 100/100 weapon and a 10/10 weapon. Damage bonus is ignored for now. From our earlier assumption, the 100/100 weapon creates 10 times on the aggro each time it's swung at an enemy than the 10/10.

So a mob comes in. If you swing the 100/100 weapon, you get say 10 aggro points. If you swing the 10/10 weapon, you get 1 aggro points. It'll be 9 more rounds before the 10/10 catches up and get 10 aggro points, but by then your 100/100 weapon is ready to go again.

Now, faster weapons do benefit more from damage bonus, which probably factors into aggro. But assuming no ridiculous damage bonus disparity (and actually 2H weapons all have better damage bonus over time than any 1H weapon), the slower weapon actually produces more initial aggro than a faster weapon, since the first swing you get on the enemy is free.

In fact there's no way the Windblade will ever lose to a dual wield combination of the same ratio (this is hard to quantify, but presumably since combination of DW weapons ought to *equal* to the ratio of a Windblade), because the first hit on Windblade creates more aggro than an equivalent DW combination. The damage bonus on a Windblade nets out to more damage over time than any 1H weapon combination (in fact just about all 2H weapons do) so it wins on aggro attributed to damage bonus as well. The aggro produced due to ratio is the same, but Windblade has a higher first swing.

[Jear]

Nice asumtion Phantron, but you are only looking at a person single wielding a 10/10 weapon. and not duel wielding. E.i a person duelwielding two 10/10 weapons will generate more agro (10 swings with main hand and 0 to 10 swings with off hand) therefor duelwielding > 2hs if we use your asumtion. :)

[Varatho]

Originally posted by Eriatha Egan
As a Magician (My main), I can tell you that spells/procs have identical agro if they're resisted or not. If I lob my Firebolt of Tallon spell at a mob and he completely resists it, he's going to be equally pissed off at me if it had landed for full damage.

It also works both ways. Crits do not generate any more agro than a normally landed cast. If I crit for 4300 damage, it's going to generate the same amount of agro as if it did not crit, doing only 2300 points of damage.

Epic proc effect is a direct aggro mod ( 500 hate ).

If a spell is resisted, its effects do not happen.

[QuirtEvans]

"If a spell is resisted, its effects do not happen."

Yes, if a spell is resisted, it's effects do not happen. However, it can still generate hate. The classic example .. the resisted slow. How many times have you seen the first cast of slow resisted, and watch the mob run straight for the slower, even if the slower hasn't done a damn thing except cast a resisted slow at the mob?

Or use another example, pulling. You cast a spell on a mob to pull it. The spell gets resisted. Does the mob ignore you? It does not. It comes running straight for you. Pretty powerful evidence that something happened there, even if the spell got resisted.

I play a 58 shammy and a 61 warrior. I can tell you, without any doubt whatsoever, that a resisted spell can generate hate. Whether it generates exactly the same hate as a spell that lands, on all mobs .. that I can't say. I don't think anyone can say for certain, unless they are a Verant programmer.

[Xath]

The warrior epic has a proc of some DD(varies by 1hs or 2hs) + 500 hate. It is a fire based resist. When it is resisted you do in fact generate aggro ... the aggro for resisting a fire based DD spell in the 200 point damage range. You do not however get the Effect of the spell which is the 500 oints of Raw hate. This is why epics create less hate when they are resisted, because the hate effect is resistable. Enraging blow weapons add unresistable hate. No one is claiming that resisted spells don't make aggro.

Oh, and misses absolutely create aggro, otherwise I would have a hard time pulling with my bow.

On the original question I have no clue. I have borrowed a windblade for a short while to see if I shuold buy one for duoing. It only parsed around 4 dps higher than my epic 2-hander. For me the difference between 63 and 67 dps didn't justify the change, especially since that was just the melee damage of the epic, procs were not figured in.

[schubydog]

A resisted slow generates more hate than a successful one.

[Braeorn]

It only parsed around 4 dps higher than my epic 2-hander.

Xath, what level are you? Being 64 I can say I get much better DPS with Windy than 4...I'll work on some parses and post the results.

Braeorn

[Cozlo]

DPS wise, hell yeah, the windblade owns for a droppable 2hander (although I would really like to check out the GoT, if any were ever for sale).

I tried tanking tier 1 planes with a windblade ... didn't work out for me. Sometimes I held aggro fine, if I got some big hits in at the beginning of the fight, but if I got a lot of misses ... goodbye aggro. Have only pulled it out for non-MA duties since.

[Phantron]

True, I ignored dual wielding because it's harder to quantify (it doesn't always go off), but it can be readily seen empirically that the aggro created by the ratio of a 2H clearly beats any comparable DW combination. I have never heard of people claiming to hold aggro well with DW combinations without a proc. With Windblade, you at least have a chance. That alone should tell you it's aggro power via ratio.

[Varatho]

Originally posted by Xath
Oh, and misses absolutely create aggro, otherwise I would have a hard time pulling with my bow.

Initial aggro perhaps. Disarm can perform the pulling function as well, but adds little or no hate ( less than one point of damage low~ ) after the first contact.

[Serraph]

OK all situational BUT

windblade will have higher DPS generally.
But if you have ambidexterity etc.. the one handers will have better,
Although if you have PB maxxed then it swings back to windblade

as a general rule with no AA's. windblade will have better dps.

as for aggro.
Windblade is the one area that I feel this board is dead wrong.
It is the biggest area where the boards have lead me astray.
Windblade is great for a Pally. (and they can keep it)

I bought one, it was OK... JUST OK.
then I gave my friend (another 65 warrior) my windblade and got a warmarshalls bladed staff
staff= 35Kpp
Windblade = 50Kpp

we duel tanked a mob in PoV.
I held the aggro...
he took it once in a while for a big hit, then it can right back to me.

then I used my SBoL, and fG
he grabbed aggro maybe once or twice.
but again it immediately came back to me.

as far as aggro goes, look at it this way...
you got a guy who smacks your ass once every 3 minutes and it hurts like hell, and another guy who keep poking you in the eye every 2 or 3 seconds.. you get to rip one a new HOLE.
Who do you take out first?

I'd snap off that pricks finger and ram it right up his arse
(the mobs feel the same way)

[wandor]

Half of the posts here have completely ignored what the original poster wanted to know. He didn't as if duel EB weapons are good, this is what he asked -

Was wondering which combination would have a better Dps.. Wielding a Windblade or dualing a Split Blade of Destruction and another 1h such as wind-worn blade or something with that ratio? Also which combination would hold more agro? Thanks,

Mags 57 Troll War

Anyone who thinks that SBoD+wind worn blade will out DPS a Windblade needs to have their head examined. This is no contest. It will be an even bigger disparity when Mags gets triple attack at level 60. Who cares about this AA or that AA, he's 57, he doesn't have ambi or punishing blade.

As for agro, neither of the weapons he is comparing has a proc of any sort. Again he will be depending on DPS for agro. We all agree that Windblade is better DPS right? Again Windblade is going to beat the combo he has listed. He didn't ask if Windblade was the best agro weapon you can buy, he specifically asked about a particular combo, and in this case he is better off with the Windblade.

We need tanks epecialy warriors that use weapons that hold good agro.
If you are counting on the weapons to keep agro, then you are not doing your job properly. Agro control is not just the warriors/tanks job, it is everyones job. I had very few problems holding agro when I would play both my war and my 65 wiz unless I would do something stupid to gain agro. It doesn't matter who is tanking, I can take agro with my wizard at will. Of course that is stupid so I don't do it, but you have to realize that you adjust your agro control to fit the current situation. I have logged plenty of exp grinds with my wizard pulling well over 100dps compared to my warrior's paltry 50-60dps and not had any significant agro problems.

as far as aggro goes, look at it this way...
you got a guy who smacks your ass once every 3 minutes and it hurts like hell, and another guy who keep poking you in the eye every 2 or 3 seconds.. you get to rip one a new HOLE.
Who do you take out first?
Hardly a good comparison. If this where the case then rogues and monks would always have agro.

In the SPECIFIC situation the original poster has asked about, the windblade is the better weapon for both agro and DPS. Windblade is not always the best agro weapon, but that's not really what he asked.

[zoth86]

I use a TSBS and a primal bat. With PB3 and ferocity and avatar on (305 str) I get around 120 to 130 DPS. Not at all bad for a procless weapon. I hold agro very well with my 2hs, and in fact have passed on using BoC and SoD combo because the 2hs DPS and agro is better over time.

There are a lot of factors to agro.....and the biggest factor is your group dynamic. What are they casting? WHEN are they casting? Whats the shammy or chanter casting? Is the cleric moving up the hate list slow or fast with heal agro?

Yes, these things do effect how others in the group will receive agro. Sitting here and saying, "Well, I nuked twice for 900 each and have all my agro reduction AA's and STILL got beat on when the warrior used a windblade" is, sorry to say, Mr Wizard, talking out ones ass. It quite probably wasnt just the warrior and the weapon, but could have been any one of a dozen different factors (/rude Sony).

Another question.....WHEN was this? Sony has tossed a TON of "ninja nerfs" to 2hs agro lately, and said nothing. There was a week recently when 2hs got you around 50% less agro than the previous week. Then it was switched back. Also....what zone was this in? BoT? Then I have to tell you ALL bets are off! Those giants are Sony's favorite testing grounds on live servers for agro and resist tinkering, and you will rapidly get fubar there.

Overall, speaking from the point of view of a level 65 with 260+ AA thats played the same warrior for over 4 years on EQ, I'd prefer the windblade, if you have the AA skills and know how to taunt properly (see other threads for that info).

Marshall Zoth Battlefury
Overlord Wolf of the North
Mithaniel Marr
"Where does he GET those wonderful toys?"

[Superchum]

"The warrior epic has a proc of some DD(varies by 1hs or 2hs) + 500 hate. It is a fire based resist. When it is resisted you do in fact generate aggro ... the aggro for resisting a fire based DD spell in the 200 point damage range. You do not however get the Effect of the spell which is the 500 oints of Raw hate. This is why epics create less hate when they are resisted, because the hate effect is resistable. "

Actually there's another component to the epic, besides the DD. It's the hate proc.

That's an icon. Like a DoT or a Debuff. (Didn't it originally used to BE a debuff?)

So when the spell is resisted, it generates the aggro of resisting BOTH the DD portion and the Hate generation ICON which acts like a Debuff.

So in effect, it's like resisting a debuff.

Which will STILL piss a mob off.

Which is why even resisted the red epic generates a significant portion of attention from the mob.

[Magumas]

Wow, lots of post, and thanks for everyones input.. Been gone for awhile and came back with all this info :).. It's helped alot and I think I'm going to stick with the Windblade... I was primarily concerned about DPS ATM, and was thinking about saving up all the cash to buy a SBoD. Did'nt want to spend all that cash if it wouldnt make a big difference. Maybe later when I get to the upper tiers, and if I find it hard to hold agro as MA I will look into other otpions.. Once again thanks for the info...

[Roenae]

Windblade is a good weapon, tho I drop to my epic if im tanking as yeah, its doesn't seem to agro very well.

I did telk today (in WToV) I wasn't the MA, so I was raid buffed to 280STR and 280Dex, with two AoB items and SoV for haste. My only offensive AA's are CF2 and PB1. I did just over 24k damage in just over 6minutes on a level 66 dragon which works out to 66DPS

Not bad for a level 66 dragon I think, and it put me as the third best damage for that fight from the whole raid. Anyway, thats my only parse since getting the weapon =D