Solutions?

[Thanton]

It seems to me that everyone agrees that the GREATEST advantage that knights enjoy over warriors is aggro. NO this is not our only advantage, however it is absolutely the thing which which gaurantees our position as the primary group tanks. I have browsed thread after thread here and at PoN debating how to address the imbalance between the classes, and I have yet to see a single solution that would fix the imbalance. I have however seen a few that would help if taken in moderation rather than being used as an exclusive fix. In short, it seems to me that it would require not a single change, but a number of changes to all 3 tank classes to balance them out.

I would like to gather some input from others on what group of changes would be required to balance things out, and also to post what i believe would be a step or so in the right direction.
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Warriors-
Strip them of defensive, evasive, aggresive, any i might have missed with similar effects.
Replace these disciplines with a slider that the warrior can adjust to suit his current need (would fit nicely where the mana bar used to be)

Give warriors an inherant aggro modifier that works much like the SK/chanter aggro buffs but requires no buff slot. Not sure how much this should be, but almost certainly no more than the 12% that the top end SK buff can give. Also not sure whether or not this should be permanent (prolly not), on a slider (which would probbably merit a recduction of the max amount over the next option), or an either off or on selection.

As an alternate method to generating more aggro over time, nix the inherant aggro modifier with an increased chance at landing critical hits, critical procs with ingenuity, and more procs in general. This would have the effect of both increasing dps and adding more hate to the warrior with the side effect of that hate/dps being more random.

Knights-
I propose as a general rule, a greater seperation between the knightly classes. Paladins should be the defensive tank hybrid, whereas SKs should be the offensive tank hybrid. This to some degree is already the case, however, not enough so imo.

To this end I propose that

Paladins-
Inherit the Defensive disciplines cast off by warriors, or gain the defensive side of the slider that warriors get with a (25 percent?) lower cap than what warriors are capable of, and perhaps 25 percent of the offensive side.

Have the discipline of Sanctification made more useful.


Gain a slight dps upgrade to stay more inline with warriors at the baseline of the slider. Not sure how best to implement this.

Shadowknights-
Inherit the Offensive disciplines cast off by warrior, or gain the offensive side of the slider that warriors get with a (25 percent?) lower cap than what warriors are capable of, and perhaps 25 percent of the defensive side.

Have the ac removed from cloak of the ahkeva and replace it with a +atk mod.

Change CoA to stack with brells/SoT/SV.

Have SK "taps" work on more (all?) mobs.

Gain enough dps upgrades to stand slightly above warriors at the baseline of the slider. Not sure how best to implement this.

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Also, should the above changes add too much advantage to warriors in the tanking department (especially should the slider be a distinctly warrior abillity), for balance auras for the knight classes are a possible alternative (off for sk, def for pal) that would offer the knights more group/raid viablillity (though it would have to be implemented in a way that did not infringe on bard abillities)



Disclaimer: Wrote this after an all nighter while still hopped up on my 3rd pot of coffee, so feel free to point out any flaws in my logic, but please, keep it civil ;-p

Thanton Darklighter
Lord Protector
Fennin Ro.

[Kaldanm]

Defensive for pals, huh ?

Good idea. But to be balanced with you we'll need root, Lay Hand, fast heals, group heals, pacify and idiotic gods.

It's everquest, you cant change the rules we played with for 4 years now. Disciplines are great for a warrior who progress to 60, it's part of our definition. also you can't have the paladin become the No1 defensive tank with ehanced mitigation at will, heals, divine aura, layhand, stuns and perfect aggro.

[Zackulle]

Some of your idea's are pretty good. But I dont think giving paly's and sk's our disciplines would do any good. Would just nullify any changes made to bring warriors up to par with knights.

If paladins had defensive what good would a warrior be? even less than they are now I would think. Defensive is pretty much our only advantage, and imo it doesnt really add up to what knights get.

[Mofu-Troll]

It wouldnt be bad if paladins had the 3 min defensive as long as warriors got the slider bar allowing fulltime defensive.

Like some of your idea's thant , the only problem is they are quite large changes , i think soe will look to do something simpler to address the prob.

My favorite idea is just to give warriors a slightly better mitigation table than the other plate classes , to offset the diff in utility and aggro the pal/sk brings. As it stands paladins are prob 90% the tanks warriors are , but are infinitly better at aggro and utility.

I would also like to see warriors get a "premium" from hp items , it seems most the new armor and items are made for all the plate classes , so the diff between war hps and pal/sk hps is shrinnking as a percentage as the totals get higher. BTW wtf is with the flayed bard leggings lol 60ac for a monk? geez i with warrior had legs like that available. Warrior ornate is only 45 ac , nice nice.


Mofu (waves at thant)

[Jear]

I would say Insane and I would think SOE would need to enhance all encounters into an option where a warrior tank would be using Defensive all the time since that is the option you are saying there. This idea has it benefits, but is too powerfull in the mesures against big mobs. What tank wouldn't be insane with continiuosly Defensive? Just keep the slider at max defensive all the time as a MT ... Ubar powerful not an option

[FarlanderB]

By increasing the defensive abilities of either Knight class you will, consequently, completely destroy the warrior class. Period. Give us something, would ya? Living in the shadow of a Paladin seems like good enough of a reason to roll a monk.

[Kvak]

Giving warriors better mitigation is not gonna get them more groups. Warriors could have 10 times better mitigation and it wouldnt matter in an xp group. The healer never goes oom these days with c3, ft and horse.

Knight:
Cleric never oom
Never has to rez anyone
DPS can go all out from the start

Warrior with better mitigation than today:
Cleric never oom
Gotta res once and a while

Better mitigation will not get warriros groups when groups with knights never needs med breaks.

[Rumblingdeth]

Nerf Knights aggro ability slightly, have mobs summon. That will get stupid casters dead till they figure it out. Then no matter who tanks aggro is not the #1 consideration, playing smart is.

[Phantron]

Warrior does not need to be changed at all. They're already too good at the high end. The problem you're facing is that Knights are even better (especialy on the lower end) and most imporatntly, they are far more suited for completely incompetent groups than warriors are.

You would THINK that if you cast spell X and it gets you aggro and you get killed, then you'd learn not to do it again. However, from empirical observation, this is clearly not the case, and I'm not even considering spells that are considered *essential* (slow, tash, etc... but even these can be delayed a bit). And as long as you're dealing with such people, your aggro will never be enough. You can steal aggro even from the mighty Blade of War quite easily in the first 15 seconds of a fight.

The only way incompetent players will learn is if no matter who is tanking, he still gets summoned and die every time. As long as Hybrids are better, you will always be inferior to such person because even with most of the proposed changes that would break the game balance in unthinkable ways, chances are more than likely a caster today that operates with Hybrid aggro will still get promptly summoned & killed with the changes, and then you're still back at where you're started with: still inferior to Hybrids in the eyes of the incompetent.

[Rumblingdeth]

Actually the problem is "cast spell "x" and get summoned and killed", BLAME THE TANK!