Why are non-agnostic characters favored by design ?

[Lillyann]

Back in the days I created my warrior as agnostic because of some general consensus that a deity could be limiting at some pt (dont ask me why I dont remember).

Plus, I was a noob and thought I might be KOS in places so I chose agnostic.

Now I check the Crafted player Ykeshas and see that clearly by design the deity based ones have been made better : 1 delay less, 5 AC bonus.

I do NOT get to wear any Fierce Heraldic armor and many other Rallos Zek deity items due to being agnostic.

This seems to be only a disadvantage to me at this point, because characters with a deity can already wear everything in the game that I can.

My question is why do agnostic characters get shafted ??

Is there something behind this design decision that eludes me ?

[Sylviania]

until recently ( when they added the deity based stuff in fact ), being agnostic had only advantages. now there is stuff to balance things out.

being agnostic brings avantages for faction issues : a follower of a god will often be kos in places an agnostic will not.

this is true mostly for enchanters : most of them are agnostic cos with illusion it allow them to go in a lot of places they couldn't go if they weren't agnostic. Even with the recent change to illusion, it is still true.

[Mandragor]

Being a Rallos Zek follower has gotten me two things in my years of playing: a good starting point with Kael faction (which promptly got shafted once I got to the level when it would matter, since my guild's on CoV), and the ability to wear FH. I wouldn't be able to take advantage of the latter without having been given some serious help; that stuff's EXPENSIVE! Everything else has been an uphill battle to be able to use banks/merchants and/or not be KOS at the places I wanted to go.

Everything has a balance (to a degree); it's easier to be agnostic in the early game, and more rewarding to be a follower in the late game. C'est la vie.

[Aamean]

If you think it is "balanced out now" please trade me your rallos zek deity and take my agnostic choice~

[Superchum]

Took me less kills in Nurga to get non-KoS than my god worshipping guildmates.

Agnostic + Sneak = merchant access anywhere and everywhere.

Thare are advantages to being agnostic.

/shrug

Cultural armor debate is already raging in the tavern anyways. You ought to go there to weigh in on this issue.

[Gartogg]

ok Agnostic in today's game has zero advantages, can't bank in the closest town? take a book up and bank in PoK hell in some cases its actually less zoning.

All factions can be fixed, sure some will be a tad easier with being agnostic, but if I could farm greens for the ability to where cultural armor (say the difference it would take for a rallos to become non kos in a certain town compared to an agnostic) you can bet I'd be doing that and have a new BP, legs, and Arms in about a week.

Agnostic=the suck and Agnostic Ogre/Troll/Vah shir is even worse not even Fine heraldic is available to us lucky few.

[Superchum]

"All factions can be fixed, sure some will be a tad easier with being agnostic, but if I could farm greens for the ability to where cultural armor (say the difference it would take for a rallos to become non kos in a certain town compared to an agnostic) you can bet I'd be doing that and have a new BP, legs, and Arms in about a week."

To get an idea as to the difference we're talking here, I like to use Cabilis faction for monks.

Iksar monks are born with it. They do no faction work.

Agnostic human monks from Qeynos have to turn in about 2k bone chips. Mind numbing work, but certainly not insane.

Quellious worshipping human monks at first were not ALLOWED to raise faction high enough, due to their goody goody-ness, but eventually had that bug "fixed" and now have to do somewhere in the ballpark of 6 to 8 k bonechips.

In other words, SURE, all factions CAN be fixed.

But when you're sitting there staring at 6 THOUSAND bone chips you need to farm, suddenly the ADVANTAGES are something palpable, something you can measure and feel with your own valuable time.

I'm not by any means saying Agnostic is a superior choice.

I'm just saying there are some tiny miniscule advantages. The drawback is lack of cultural armor.

But you know, if you take the time it takes someone else to farm 4k more bonechips and apply that to raiding, odds are you'll come up with at least one or two superior items for your agnostic character.

Everyone says oh it's so much easier to bank nowadays and factions mean nothing.

But they mean even LESS to the agnostic. You run to PoK to bank. I hide and sneak and bank right there.

You can fix your bad factions in Freeport. I already had good freeport factions and leave the stupid orcs alone while going off to waste my time on something else in game.

[Wompem Ondahed]

I started life as an iksar warrior, my very first character, which I leveled to 40. Back then I though Velious armor was too uber to obtain and I couldn't wear Cobalt so I decided to make an ogre.

I decided to go RZ for the pure roleplay, being the big warrior following the god of war without question, even though I wasn't on an RP server ( I was a noob, guess I still am sometimes ). If Gloves of Rallos Zek or Rune of Rallos Zek dropped ( caster spell components ) I would roll for them, cause my character was that dedicated. At one time all my bank slots were filled with them.

Everyone said I should have been Agnostic for the faction, that I was screwed and would have to work hard to bank at towns or buy stuff, that I was foolish for following RZ. My line of thought was the devoted will be rewarded one day.

If you follow the expansions, notice who drops what, and why: Kunark - the 'ultimate weapon' forged by Rallos Zek ( epic ) .
Velious - the best (arguably) Velious weapon BoC dropped off of AoW. Helm of RZ, the monk legs, SBoZ, Vindi chest, BP of Eradication, all of that stuff dropped from RZ related mobs.
Luclin - Fierce Heraldic
PoP - Blade of War

I'm not sure if I am being very clear, but what I mean to say is that Rallos Zek is the god of war, things related to him are representative of that. RZ is a symbol of power, and items should reflect it. I am not trying to down my brother and sister warriors, but EQ started life as a 'roleplaying' game long ago. There are RP reasons that various things related to RZ are the way they are.

FH is not gamebreaking. I don't see any of the truely 'uber' end game people still in FH. The end-game armor is War/All .

[Derrin]

I'm a Brell worshipper and it's great! Since I worship Brell, I get... Hrm.
Uh... I get...
Hrm.
Well, if I were a cleric I could quest for a necklace that summons ale, that would be, um...
Hrm.
OH YEAH! I get that armor that is half as good FH and Helanic! Uhhhh....
Pleh. Hate RZ. Hate kilts.

[Zotha]

FH is not gamebreaking. I don't see any of the truely 'uber' end game people still in FH. The end-game armor is War/All .

The problem with FH isnt that it is too good compared to Raex gear, it is far too good compared to the stuff available to non Rallos/Tribunal people at the level where you start to get this stuff. It completely blows away Velious/SS gear in every slot except BP and makes all "split" cultural gear look massively lame for warriors. It might not be game breaking, but it causes a large schizm between warriors of a certain level, entirely because of a choice they made at creation several months/years ago.

People shouldnt be given a 500hp advantage over other players simply because of the deity they picked. If they suddenly put woodelf only 80hp legs/bracers/arms/helm in the game that dropped off Doomshayde and Rumblecrush people would be outraged. This amounts to exactly the same thing.

[Haass]

People shouldnt be given a 500hp advantage over other players simply because of the deity they picked. If they suddenly put woodelf only 80hp legs/bracers/arms/helm in the game that dropped off Doomshayde and Rumblecrush people would be outraged. This amounts to exactly the same thing.

The difference is not anywhere near 500hp, and this is the biggest misconception that causes problems. The advantage is less than 1% of my total HP if I switched to an agnostic diety and got armor appropriate for that. There's an alternate profile in my magelo that displays a 56hp difference between my RZ set and what I might be wearing if I was agnostic. I hardly call that advantage game breaking.

There's a thread in the taven that's already 4 pages long, may wanna continue the discussion there.

[Derrin]

Haass, I've read that other thread and much of it is merely a bickering contest between you and Binnamar in which you trivialize the difference and he overstates the impact. Not that I expect much more out of this thread. And those items you list? Good luck getting them all in this lifetime. The advantage that FH/Helanic wearers have over others isn't huge, but it is significant. Thank Brell I'm in the elementals...

[Crist0]

There is a 410 hp(raw) difference between a set of FH/HT and the other cultural sets.

Zotha's guestimate isn't nearly as far off as you'd like to make it seem.

[Binnamar]

you and Binnamar in which you trivialize the difference and he overstates the impact.


Think ya mean Crist0 ;)


No big deal but hey... :rolleyes:

[Haass]

There is a 410 hp(raw) difference between a set of FH/HT and the other cultural sets.

Zotha's guestimate isn't nearly as far off as you'd like to make it seem.


Ya, and I've said before that if all the pieces of a set aren't better than something else you could get THEN DON'T WEAR THEM.

Jesus goddamned christ. No one wore the crafted helm, and it was for a reason. Froggie crown or SSB was better than crafted.Very few people wear champions bracers because they can wear a BoB. So if your cultural isn't better than something else you could get, don't wear it and don't walk around with a 410hp difference.

Good lord, where the hell did the logic go? Walk around wearing a full set of armor and sport a 410hp difference, or replace that armor with better stuff and the difference becomes FAR FAR LESS.

[Derrin]

Sorry Binnamar, meant Crist0 =P Good to see that the rants have made it to this thread though!

[Kaldanm]

Lets compare greaves...


Fierce heraldic font : 40AC +5Sta +5Dex +80HP
Kael warrior : 45AC +9Str +5Sta +7Dex +5vsM +5vsF
Skyshrine : 40AC +9Str +9Agi +9Dex +4vsMg +40HP
Brellium (since I'm a dwarf) : 40AC +40HP +40Mana

First upgrade AFTER fierce heraldic :

Ivory Crystal Greaves
AC: +48 Str: +10 Sta: +5 Dex: +8 Wis: +8 Int: +8
Fire Resist: +12 Poison Resist: +12 Disease Resist: +12
HP: +80 Mana: +80

drop from HP in ssra.
Not the same accessibility. What is lame, is that after 2 years you have droppable gear at low price equipable at 45, better than an armor you must farm with 12 level 60 people + buy gems.

[Haass]

I'd like to chime in and say that Warlords greaves suck ass, and are the ONLY class Kael legs with no raw HP. It's obvious they have been broken since they were put in the game.

I think if warlord's were itemized correctly, this wouldn't be an issue, since warlords should be in that range, based upon other class greaves. It's not that Cultural got itemized incorrectly, it's that warlord's was never balanced correctly.

[Spinetwist]

I dont know why its even an arguement. Any gear equation or faction issue can be altered - you are never doomed based on the race or deity you picked.

You need to just figure out other options is all. I dont know what your current raid environment is but Im sure there are other alternatives. Some deity stuff is nice, but remember uber gear doesn't discriminate, and there will always be some nice stuff out there.

I dont understand why people go Agnostic. Fook faction. I started eq not knowing anything, and when I picked a god I did it based on the gods description and how I felt it related to my character. I think its kinda funny how choosing the normal and "easy" way out came back to bite so many ppl in the ass. This is a great lesson. Fook the norm. Fook the easy way out. Be different. =)

[Spinetwist]

I dont know why its even an arguement. Any gear equation or faction issue can be altered - you are never doomed based on the race or deity you picked.

You need to just figure out other options is all. I dont know what your current raid environment is but Im sure there are other alternatives. Some deity stuff is nice, but remember uber gear doesn't discriminate, and there will always be some nice stuff out there.

I dont understand why people go Agnostic. Fook faction. I started eq not knowing anything, and when I picked a god I did it based on the gods description and how I felt it related to my character. I think its kinda funny how choosing the normal and "easy" way out came back to bite so many ppl in the ass. This is a great lesson. Fook the norm. Fook the easy way out. Be different. =)

[Superchum]

Heh. The reason I went agnostic is kinda funny when I look back on it.

Way back when, getting around was hard. I'd seen my friend playing the game a week or so before I got it, and he was on this boat for like a half an hour. I couldn't believe the game made him stay on that boat like that.

So anyways, when I told him I got the game, he told me which server to pick (after explaining what the heck servers were) ... and told me whatever I do, just start near Qeynos, that way me and him can hang out together.

I chose monk.

The only monks allowed near Qeynos?

Yup. Agnostic.

I chose agnostic for my warrior oh so many moons later because it's just my thing.

I think almost all of my toons are agnostic.

[wraq]

I agree Spine. I chose my God based purley on the description. Innoruuk it was. I am a warrior. I want the bastards that think that they are tough enough to come try to kill me. Screw being liked, leave that to the Palli's. Pinkie bastards will never get me to worship their God's and I will even go out of my way to kill my own if he does not behave. That is the way of this warrior. Never take the easy route....

[Borix]

As a fierce warrior i fear nothing, not even a God !

I think the only way to go is Agnostic. If i had to do it all over again i would pick Agnostic again. I don't want to be bribed by SoE to go on the RF deity.

What is a shame however is the fact that there isn't any Agnostic specific armor. Call it Atheistic armor or whatever but introduce it in the game.

What also is strange that there is no way you can change your deity. Introduce some quest or AA's to get converted (don't be afraid i won't use it :D). Why is it possible to change things like caster specialization but not the deity. One would think that it is easier to convert to another believe than to learn another specialization.

[Spinetwist]

Why would there be any Agnostic armor? As Agnostic you opted out from any choices of deity - you have chosen to sit out of religious followings and beliefs, so why would there be an armor affiliated with you when you have no affiliation? /boggle

Cultural armor is based on the principles that you follow a certain deity. If you follow NO deity, then why should you get anything? That's your choice! You chose nothing, so nothing is whatcha get. Enjoy your /cons warmly to the Freeport Authority. Im up in Tactics sporting my Fierce Hereldic Greaves kickin some ash.

mwa ha ha ha

[Borix]

The real design error on cultural armor is that it only grants advantages and no disadvantages.

People choose a deity because it grants them better gear. Hmm, was that the intention of deities? Don't think so. Some people choose a deity to be different, well bad luck, the RF deity is the norm atm.

I still think that a confident warrior shouldn't worship a god at all and certainly not because he gets some nice pants. But that is my personal view of course.

Overlord Borix

[Crist0]

You need to just figure out other options is all.


Riiiiight...and the other option is going to VT.

Let's see. Get armor before level 50 in the bazaar vs. leveling to 60(65 now) and joining a raiding guild.

Boy howdy, that's not nearly as crazy as I thought...

[Haass]

I listed other options. You keep discounting them because they cost platinum. Here's a theory. Make some friends, and go CAMP THEM.

It's really not that hard, and it's not that big of a deal.

A 65hp mantle drops off a 1 groupable dragon in WW, that option is ignored. 65hp greaves drop in CT in a 1 groupable area. Eyepatch of Plunder is only 10hp less than the Fierce mask, and can be soloed -- with your favorite healer helping you with Lodi. Heavy Rubicite Girdle is campable, with less than 1 group, and yet all of these items are somehow not options for your average non RZ warrior because they are tradable and end up costing money. What a crock.

You guys in NToV gear crack me up. You can manage to scrape together enough people to kill dragons but you can't direct your XP to a zone that drops something you need. Classic.

[Spinetwist]

Yes silly me. I forgot cultural was end game equipment and an absolute requirement for being a good tank.

[Superchum]

Agnostic armor does exist.

NON-diety, NON-imbued versions of MANY of these armors exist.

Yes, there are some problems for some race/class combos, but for the most part there's a NON-imbued alternative.

Take Dwarven cultural for instance.

You're a shorty with a god? There's all sorts of imbued versions you can snag. But they don't really add much except mana and caster stats.

So then there's Brellium. The stock dwarven cultural armor available to ALL shorties, even AGNOSTIC halflings like myself.

Go figure.

Fine Heraldic is not that bad.

Of course you can now commence to tell me how you're an agnostic Iksar Ranger with two pinky rings that worships Polka Dots and because of that you can't even wear non-imbued armors.