Dualwield & Is there a life after the BoW

[EmiliaEQ]

Guess the 1st thread was deleted :eek:
So i'll start over again :D

Still looking for BF/HG/BoC alternatives for dual wield.
(Thats if you feel DW is still a viable option)

And of course curious to know if there's a life after the BoW.

[FulorianC]

I hear SEWS is nice.

[EmiliaEQ]

I aint greedy enough to get a SEWS when i got a BoW :)
Not reasonable.

[Jysin]

Ive had access to pretty much every drop weapon there is. I have yet to see anything parse near my BoW. SEWS is the only "upgrade" I would consider as its nice for some free runes on Solo'ing or other limited fights.

Aside from that, I would not bid on a SEWS either until all our non-BoW tanks have one.

/shrug :(

[kriegartorv]

Does anyone have dps parses of lets say a Corv hammer / Ifir vs a BoW... Im lacking a non agro weapon combo and was wondering how high end 1hders compare to lets say a crow footed lance or a ornate great blade in dps...

-kriegar

[Tima]

I keep half expecting to see a wep from Plane of Time that procs Frenzying Blow, and I kinda hope to see it before the plane is cleared completely. That would be something Id look toward to upgrade to if the ratio was good (being PoTime, no doubt it would be). Im like Jysin, nothing has come close to the BoW yet, so a wep upgrade just isnt a viable option for me in my forseeable future. It just seems kinda warped that arguably one of the best warrior weapons comes from a mid tier pre-elemental boss, theres gotta be something else out there that can offer as much or more dps and maintain the aggro generation capabilities of a BoW.

[lovax]

on the other hand it makes sense that the best weapon for a warrior would come from the god of war... back in kunark our epic came from him (he origonally made it), et cetera. It may be a mid tier pre-elemental boss, but he's still the god of war, and you are a WARrior :p .

[Ainian]

After raiding Plane of Time up to the Zek brothers (pure assbeat, hello 2300DPS defensive,) I'm thinking it's time to swap out BoW for dual wield again. You don't really want to be tanking those non defensive for very long, and you need taunt fast so Wizards can go insane with their concussion pants.

Ripostes don't bother me too much while Defensive, I'd rather the massive taunt from dual EB proccers.

[Gerald]

Break out your weapons from 1-2 expansions ago? Don't you see something wrong with that considering you're at the end of The current expansion? :p.

[Zotha]

I use BF + earth hammer and have 0 problem holding agro. With the changes to ripostes this also isnt really a problem except on a few mobs with insane damage spikes (reparm and fennin mostly) and evasive down. When not MTing I use Agnarr main and hammer off.. and generally do 150+ dps on average. Ive more or less resigned myself to the fact Rallos isnt gonna drop any BOWs for us, and even if he did would likely go to a warrior without the collection of 1h weapons I have.

[Furor]

Originally posted by EmiliaEQ
Guess the 1st thread was deleted :eek:
So i'll start over again :D

Still looking for BF/HG/BoC alternatives for dual wield.
(Thats if you feel DW is still a viable option)

And of course curious to know if there's a life after the BoW.

Well, I think Ainian smokes crack. Unfortunately outside of EXP groups, I stick with the BoW. Riposte is still incredibly painful DW MT. Especially on Time mobs with their already ridiculous DPS.

And there are plenty of DW combos that come out over a BoW. Unfortunately those weapons are all in Time. I pull out equal to BoW damage with my current DW combo (Coir/Rathe) but with more streakiness.

In all honesty, the Blade of War is just too good of a weapon. I'd be interested to see our class 2hander from Time. We'll probably know soon enough and then the whining can begin that it doesn't do the job as well as a BoW.

[Ainian]

On mobs that severely handicap your taunt, or need to die fast, I still prefer my DW combo over 2h. I switch out DW when Disc fades, but I much rather have massive taunt while Defensive.



[EDIT] - Previous post editted and replaced with this. Too much encounter infoz in previous one!

[Hulanta]

Bah -- I missed that 22 minutes and didn't steal your leet strats...

[Choppin]

There were l33t strats here and I MISSED EM? Oh NOS!

Anyway.

Some Elemental+ warriors swears to not even using kick or bash cause of ripostes, OR even getting Punishing Blade.

That last one is going too far, but kick/bash... just another way to get you CTS anyway.

[Wilhelmm_Lanys]

question. I currently d-wield a Hategiver/Obsidian scimmy combo (suprizingly good taunt weapon actually, esp. for off-hand). My guild's based on RPP. Our next mob kill will likely be Rallos. Blade of war, if it drops, will likely be at least 1500rpp, probably 1600 (thats our system). likely, elemental plate drops will be about 800-1200rpp per piece. Question is, which is the better value for rpp spent; the BoW or the 1.5 - 2 elemental plate pieces I can get instead?

[Gallerus]

the bow is - you'll see tons of armor in teh long run, many fewer bows most likely.

[Jysin]

In all honesty, the Blade of War is just too good of a weapon. I'd be interested to see our class 2hander from Time. We'll probably know soon enough and then the whining can begin that it doesn't do the job as well as a BoW.

10 bucks its gonna be from Rallos 2.0 and it will have the elusive Frenzying Blow proc (950 hate).

Lucy info: HERE (http://lucy.fnord.net/spell.html?id=2676&source=Live)

[Tenakha]

When you consider that DW parses to 15-20% more damage taken than using a 2h'er then no I don't consider DW to be useable any more. And when you consider the 2h'ers available to warriors that can actually hold agro and allow us to do our jobs well...gee BoW is about it (maybe stone etched, dunno). Warrior weapons need SERIOUS help so we can do the job our class was created for.

[kriegartorv]

wilhelmm: get the BoW... unless ur guild plans on farming RZ till all the warriors have a BoW, which could take a long time and prolly wont happen, BoW is well worth getting passed up on a few elemental piece, which your guild will most likely be farming for a while...

-kriegar

[Ainian]

You know, I digged up some parses to actually check riposte rates while DW and while 2h. These by no means are enough data to truly confirm anything either way, but interesting all the same:

Taken from Tallon Zek, in Plane of Time.

2h (Blade of War)

1788 DPS
4.7% Riposte rate
236 second sample

1888 DPS
5.1% Riposte rate
212 second sample

1588 DPS
3.9% Riposte rate
188 second sample


Dual wield (19 Delay primary)

1757 DPS
4.9% riposte rate
288 second sample

1684 DPS
3.1% Riposte rate
194 second sample


---------------------

These samples are all purely melee damage only, non melee (spells) are not included in the parse. I was defensive for the first 180 seconds of each parse.

Like I said, these are not enough data to truly confirm anything at all; but so far, I definately do not see a "15-20%" DPS increase, while dual wielding.

[Vero]

Ainian,

Can you define your riposte rate? Is that a percentage of your swings that are riposted?

Vero Blade
CT Server

[Furor]

Originally posted by Ainian
You know, I digged up some parses to actually check riposte rates while DW and while 2h. These by no means are enough data to truly confirm anything either way, but interesting all the same:

Taken from Tallon Zek, in Plane of Time.

2h (Blade of War)

1788 DPS
4.7% Riposte rate
236 second sample

1888 DPS
5.1% Riposte rate
212 second sample

1588 DPS
3.9% Riposte rate
188 second sample


Dual wield (19 Delay primary)

1757 DPS
4.9% riposte rate
288 second sample

1684 DPS
3.1% Riposte rate
194 second sample


---------------------

These samples are all purely melee damage only, non melee (spells) are not included in the parse. I was defensive for the first 180 seconds of each parse.

Like I said, these are not enough data to truly confirm anything at all; but so far, I definately do not see a "15-20%" DPS increase, while dual wielding.

I'm more interested to hear why TZ is doing such insane DPS to you. I parsed all last night and on my best parse of 588 seconds he was pulling 1364 dps. Seemed to average out around 1250-1350 with all the parses put together.

[Solinar]

AC and especially atk debuffs go a long way. Also maybe they arent slowing a partially slowable mob or using enchanter slow?

Just throwing out possibilities.

[Furor]

Originally posted by Solinar
AC and especially atk debuffs go a long way. Also maybe they arent slowing a partially slowable mob or using enchanter slow?

Just throwing out possibilities.

He isn't slowable and I would assume you would get all possible ATK debuffs on TZ as soon as humanly possible.

[Ainian]

I've got no idea.... I've had him parsed at upwards of 2k DPS. I assumed all our ATK debuffs were in -- well, they better have been! I'm like 2100'ish AC when I tank him.

We haven't played with him for like a week now (thanks broken tier3...) but we're heading up today, I'll see what kind of shit he throws at me then.

588 seconds? Shit, I'm lucky to see after defensive.

[Mon Jun 02 11:40:25 2003] You lose the concentration to remain in your fighting discipline.
[Mon Jun 02 11:40:26 2003] Tallon Zek tries to kick YOU, but misses!
[Mon Jun 02 11:40:26 2003] Tallon Zek hits YOU for 2505 points of damage.
[Mon Jun 02 11:40:26 2003] Tallon Zek hits YOU for 3040 points of damage.
[Mon Jun 02 11:40:26 2003] Tallon Zek hits YOU for 1007 points of damage.
[Mon Jun 02 11:40:26 2003] Tallon Zek hits YOU for 3040 points of damage.
[Mon Jun 02 11:40:26 2003] The blood freezes in your veins. You have taken 2718 points of damage.
[Mon Jun 02 11:40:27 2003] You have been knocked unconscious!
[Mon Jun 02 11:40:27 2003] You have been slain by Tallon Zek!
[Mon Jun 02 11:40:27 2003] Returning to home point, please wait...
[Mon Jun 02 11:40:27 2003] LOADING, PLEASE WAIT...
[Mon Jun 02 11:40:38 2003] You have entered Plane of Tranquility.

[Furor]

I can only assume you aren't grouped with a bard dumping Psalm on your ass. Only thing I can think of as to why you're taking such an insane amount of damage.

His melee isn't SOOO bad if you negate his two bombs. Frankly I think he's easier than TT/Saryrn with the right group compositions. We just lack numbers so when one guild might have him near dead with 72 peeps at 588 seconds in, we're scratching 65%. We'll have him dead soon with 50 or so but it's definitely a challenge.

[kriegartorv]

could u trunicate ur parses to the part where u are defensive only?

from the 2 fights where u lasted around 180 seconds there is a 6 percent increase in dps from dual wielding... given that its a small sample size (2 180ish second parses) it doesnt really say anything...

[Thorbadin]

To me this is the kind of thing you test in theory first, then you try to make the assumption fit with reality.

Let's say you can determine the # of attack you get per second with a good dw combo vs a good 2-hander. The % of riposte is constant in both case. You know what is the number of riposte you get by round by multiplying #att by riposte %.

You then need to find the average hit and find a good average dps for that mob. You then remove the riposte dps by removing from the total dps the dps related to riposte. You have a riposte free dps. This is a base you can then use to determine what would have been the dps if you were using different weapons. You simply add to the base the dps associated to riposte from different weapons. From that you determine % of difference.

Let's see how this work out with a bunch of estimate :

Assuming double attack of 62%, DW = 51.6%, haste = 105%, tripple attack of 0.07%, punish blade add another 0.05%, ambidextry add 0.04%. Btw these number can and are probably wrong, feel free to correct me if you have proof, but I need to start somewhere.

I also assume a mob can riposte even if you miss, so no need to calculate the hit%, but I'm not certain (I guess it work like enrage).

Testing with a dw combo of both 19 dly vs a blade of war at 32 dly.

This will get you 1.87 attack main hand + .97 attack off hand with DW for a total of 2.84 attack per second miss or hit.

With the BOW it turn out to be 1.17 attack per second.

Now the % of riposte. It's 5% in your parse, but are you calculating the fact that with TM you get another 100% of riposte that you do not get a message for? Let's say for now that the rate is 5%, but it could be upward to 10% with TM.

DW Riposte = 0.142 (1 per 7 seconds on avg).
2-hander Riposte = 0.0585 (1 per 17 seconds on avg).

The mob is going to miss you some too. Let's say mob hit% is 60%. You get the following :
DW Riposte with mob hit% : 0.0852
2-h Riposte with mob hit% : 0.0351

Btw this seem kinda low but let's continue with the example.

Let's say you are fighting a mob with 1500dps with an average hit of hmm, 1000? You did that parse using the DW combo.

The dps that you get from the riposte is equal to 1000 * 0.0852 for the DW = 85.2

So basically the non riposte base dps for that mob is 1500 - 85.2 = 1414.8.

With DW = 1500.
With 2-h (32dly) = 1414.8 + 35.1 = 1449.9.

1449.9 vs 1500. So by switching to a blade of war in this example you would get a reduction of 50.1 dps for a % of 3.3% dps. This is with a riposte of 5% but I don't know but it seem kinda low.

Let's say TM was not counted and real riposte rate is 10%.

That mean that base dmg is 1500 - (85.2 * 2) = 1329.6
2-h dmg is then equal to 1399.8 versus 1500 for DW. The dmg reduction in that case from switching from DW to 2-hander is 100.2 or 6.68% (100 out of 1500). This seem more possible.

This does not take into account chance of burst dmg happening, but I'm not that good in statistics. It's alot easier to calculate everything based on average hit %, average dps, etc.

I hope this can be usefull to someone (heh) and feel free to correct me on some numbers. Maybe I'll put that in excel so I can calculate it instantly, I already have a bunch of formula in a sheet somewhere.

Thorbadin
Triton

[Elidroth]

What about the BF/Aegis of Earth combo? Assuming they fixed furious bash, this could be a viable combo. Seems like dps is sorta meaningless so long as I'm generating the agro required. Would be nice if shields gave a greater frequence of blocked attacks than they do now. BF + Call of Fire + furious Bash should be good agro.

[Itzlegend]

Today was our first day checking tallon out. Buffing resists is definatly the way to go, since based on my limited logs he can do upwards of 300+ dps in just nukes. Which while a lot, is even more significant when you consider that is all coming in doses of 2500ish... e.g. massive burst damage.

Furor, what parser do you use? Are you sure its counting what spell damage you do take, even though it is probably fairly minimal?

I am quite shy of your AC, but he still did 1500 to me defensive.


1500 in melee only....

[Jakle Attakle]

Itz, what guild are you from again? I remember reading your MB's at one point a LONG time ago :)


Conquest?

[trakceles]

yes

[Itzlegend]

We came back to everquest around the time PoP came out, after leaving because of the whole sleepers thing mid-velious.

Worked out pretty good i think, as we missed out on that piece of shit called luclin :)

Killed Tallon a few days ago. 6 minutes 30 second fight. Two parsers, one showed 1650ish and one showed 1750ish. This is melee only, but most spells were resisted. Quite a bit more then furors average...

[Itzlegend]

Maybe his enchanters are just rune-happy. 4-5 enchanters chain-runing wont go very far to save you from a spike, but they could certainly have at least this big of an effect on overall DPS.

[Ainian]

Ya, we kill him every spawn, and everytime it's 1600+ DPS. Killed him with one death last time, for a 6 minute fight. 1680 DPS.

I single tank him from 100% to 0%. No spell, always pure melee. Still can't figure out why Furor's taking considerably less DPS.

[vova]

Spellshield rotation? Rune rotation? Evasive vs. defensive?

[Chatja ogre]

Spellshield rotation? Rune rotation? Evasive vs. defensive?

I single tank him from 100% to 0%. No spell, always pure melee. Still can't figure out why Furor's taking considerably less DPS.

These samples are all purely melee damage only, non melee (spells) are not included in the parse. I was defensive for the first 180 seconds of each parse.

I am quite shy of your AC, but he still did 1500 to me defensive. 1500 in melee only....

588 seconds? Shit, I'm lucky to see after defensive.

[Furor]

Originally posted by Ainian
Ya, we kill him every spawn, and everytime it's 1600+ DPS. Killed him with one death last time, for a 6 minute fight. 1680 DPS.

I single tank him from 100% to 0%. No spell, always pure melee. Still can't figure out why Furor's taking considerably less DPS.

Sorry it's taken so long to reply. I keep meaning to and forgetting. Anyhow, the DPS numbers I brought up were melee only. Enchanters were in fact chain runing, which probably explains the disparity somewhat...

[Wilhelmm_Lanys]

One more question. I know I asked something similar earlier, on whether I should get BoW for 1500rpp or save for 2 elemental armor pieces. Well, things have changed slightly. I got one of those BoT Greatstaffs for free; 41/31, 125hp, proc some 75dd. Oddly enough, this thing's pretty high agro; I'm still drawing agro fairly easily. So, I'm thinking, since I just got this weapon, which seems to draw decent agro, would it still be wize to spend another 1500, the equivalent of 2 elemental armor pieces, on a Bow or just forget it?

In summary, is BoW really THAT much better than the greatstaff to warrant that kind of spending?

[kriegartorv]

ya

[Khumak]

weapon upgrade > armor upgrade

[Superchum]

"and you need taunt fast so Wizards can go insane with their concussion pants."

Possibly the coolest thing I've ever seen posted on this board.

Sums up the warrior class in a nutshell. A funny ass nutshell at that.

Mind if I quote that out of context at every available opportunity? It's just gooooood punchline!

:-)

[Wilhelmm_Lanys]

Just wanna give a big thanks out to all of you for the advice on Bow thing. I just got mine 3 hours ago, I believe it's only like the 7th on our server, and I am madly in love.

[freller]

Tallon Zek does about 1650ish DPS on our MTs. He's one tough mob, that's for sure. I've been recently pondering whether to go Duel Wield or 2hander. The important thing is the DPS of the mob. I don't see the need to complicate things with concerning about the percentage of riposte on DW versus 2handers. By examing the DPS, you can draw conclusions from that. So, I say parse 20 fights on TZ in all; 10 using DW combo and 10 using 2hander (BoW). Post your results and then we can draw our conclusions from the DPS alone.

I say 10, 'cause that seems to be a good number for averaging things out. I'm saving up for an aggro weapon and this info might help me decide whether to go the DW or 2hander route.

Here's some fights that was parsed on our MT tanking Tallon Zek (time):

Example #1) MT using BoW 2hander:

Time: 194 Seconds
TZ DPS: 1793
TZ damage: 348,020

Example #2) MT Using BoW 2hander again:

Time: 299 Seconds
TZ DPS: 1950
TZ damage: 583,243



MT has more then 2100 AC buffed.

[Ainmer]

Tallon's overall DPS doesn't matter so much as his burst DPS. Watching him do 8600+ damage to you in the space of 1 second is sobering. I'll keep using my BoW to give myself the small % greater chance of survivng a burst dps round.

Additionally, with BoW and symbol, I lost one mage our first Tallon to overaggro at 50%. (He had been chain nuking since 90%) No one else died. Aggro was very nice.

[Smohg]

quote:

In summary, is BoW really THAT much better than the greatstaff to warrant that kind of spending?

I have a greatstaff and I think the aggro on it is subpar - but it makes a nice weapon to have when Im not the MT. I have a BF/FB IV sheild that is much better for solid aggro.

If you want a 2HS weapon for aggro - I think BOW is what you want - despite the raid points or whatever.

[Smushu]

Wilhelmm, how do you like your BoW?

[Wilhelmm_Lanys]

I believe it's the weapon made by Jesus himself, and stolen from his stash... (it's amazing)