Forgetting the lowbies.

[BlackMage]

Hey, new to the boards and thought I'd start everything out with a little rant.

Everyone around here seems to be only talking about PoP. No one is discussing how us warriors have a hard time in the lowbie levels. I understand most of you are high in your 50s and 60s and probably havn't tried leveling a lowbie character since way back when.

Basically at lower levels, we can tank reasonably well. Other classes can still easily out taunt us if they wanted to. But there isn't the huge aggro from slows being thrown around so it isn't too much of an issue. So Pallys and SKs can still taunt as well as us. They can cast spells, and are overall more versatle (sp?) then warriors. Groups would rather have them. Heck, at that level, a monk can tank as well as us aslong as theirs a healer in the group. Might be less mana efficient since we have better ac but now all the casters and priests out there are loaded up on kei and can continually cast as much as they desire.

So with the new patch that boosts the "melee" classes. Not only does it need to balance the high end game. It needs to balance the low end game as well. I stood around for 30 min in Crushbone at level 14 looking for a TR group. Then a level 15 pally ooc's for a group and they immediatly put him in there. Happens at lower levels as much as the higher levels.

Now heres some little ideas that have been floating around in my head to balance things out a little bit.

-Every level a warrior gets a 2-3 ac bonus increase.
-Every level a warrior gets 1-2 atk bonus increase.
-Taunt puts you on top and also adds additional hate so you can remain on top.
-Critical taunt, adds a lot of hate.
-Taunt at first puts you on top of hate, 2nd time is adds 5 to hate, 3rd time it adds 10, 4th 20, 5th 40, 6th 80 and so one.
-Every 5-10 levels we gain 1% dmg mitigation (sp?)

Just throwing out some ideas, numbers can be changed to appease sony. What do you people think?

[Glatius2]

In the 50s, against the typical pre-PoP mobs, Warriors still have enough of an HP advantage that they really are a better choice, in most cases. Aggro control just isn't as major an issue. Casters don't squish near as quickly against mobs that that are hitting for 80-150 versus 300-600.

[Sturgis]

Not to mention, often lack of aggro control is not a problem with the warrior at all - it's a result of somebody else doing something they dont need to/shouldnt be doing.. i.e. other melees taunting or casting, shamans slowing too soon, casters over-nuking, etc.

[Raunstonecutter]

Leveling lowbies suck! I feel your pain! Best thing to do is to make friends to group with. Or make friends with a higher level who might help get you some PL.

Sitting around LFG suck at any level. I would suggest Oasis at 14, or if you can get a healin partner, Paludal Caverns (as over filled twinkdom as it is).

[Superchum]

"Then a level 15 pally ooc's for a group and they immediatly put him in there. Happens at lower levels as much as the higher levels."

The reason the 15 paladin gets chosen at THAT level is most likely NOT the same reason a 63 paladin gets chosen over a 65 warrior in a planar group.

At 15, I would wager the group just wants the added healing the paladin can provide.

[Beornegar]

I feel your pain. The reason you hear more about the disparity between the overall tankability of knights and warriors at higher level, is because it becomes way more noticeable then. The problems still exist at lower levels, they're just not as pronounced. Hell, my 31 sk is easily as good of a tank as my warrior was at that level, maybe better, and has less aggro worries and more utility. If you look closely though, most of the discussions about this issue tend towards not using itemization or AA to fix the problem, but instead making an accross the board change that all levels and styles of play will benefit from. Items and AA will probably just help the small percentage of players that are "uber" or "high end" and don't really need that much help. Most people here are aware of that, it's just a matter of making the devs listen. (or at least acknowledge the fact that there's a problem) :)

Beo

[Dintorr]

shamans slowing too soon, casters over-nuking, etc.

Yes, but's it's all relative ... if a Knight is Tanking in an exp group, then slowing too soon, over-nuking, etc. is much less of an issue ...

It's only a problem because a Warrior is tanking ...

This is the critical difference that a lot of people miss.

If a group can go at 100% with Tank "A", but can only go at 70% with Tank "B", why on earth would they go with Tank "B"?

[Superchum]

"If a group can go at 100% with Tank "A", but can only go at 70% with Tank "B", why on earth would they go with Tank "B"?"

Reason 1 to do so: Tank A is already grouped and the only tank LFG is Tank B.

Reason 2 to do so: Tank B is your friend, Tank A is a super duper prick.

Reason 3 to do so: You still get good XP no matter WHICH tank you pick so it really doesn't matter which one you take.

I think people sometimes get way to wrapped up in "efficiency" when discussing LFG and group make up on message boards.

In game it's a little different. People sometimes make an issue out of this type of disparity, for sure.

But then again, if people are getting enough XP, they usually don't care about a small lack of efficiency.

As a monk, from my perspective, Tank A and Tank B are equal. I can drop aggro on either just as easily.

;-)

[Shikarii]

heh funny Wu; even in my old server the warriors would get hosed over "Looking for TANK Pal/SK only" ... people won't even consider ya for a group if you're not going to bring anything "beneficial" to the group dynamics.

my last day on TT my old guild asked the same question in guildchat and the warriors sat quietly; and either logged on their alt or just camped for the night...me, i went a step further :D but that's niether here nor there.

'Tis quite silly how these days even pick-up groups are so blinded by their own perspectives on what the group "should" resemble. I still remember when getting someone in a group was taking someone in the zone just to add another person to the group :D. who cared if it was another enchanter; or if it was the 3rd cleric, or the 5th bard, or however..people made it work.

these days people are just too damn lazy; or just don't give a rat's ass about anyone but themselves or their idea of what experience per hour quota they need to tally up to feel "adequate".

[Brutul]

Anyone who is trying to optimize thier group at 15 is a bonehead. 6 warriors or 6 clerics in a group at 15 will probably be equally effective. The only thing that makes a difference at that level is how twinked you are.

[Dintorr]

But then again, if people are getting enough XP, they usually don't care about a small lack of efficiency.

Yeah, that makes sense to me, but there are a whole lot of people out there with a less easygoing attitude ...

I was in a PoD group a little while back, in LCY ... we had been killing mobs for at least 4 hours ... the monk was pulling, I was tanking, all was good ...

Then the monk had to leave .... uh oh ... the Shammy wanted me to pull ... I said "ok" ... about 20 minutes later a mob popped at the wrong place at the wrong time ... we got an add ...

Stop me if you've heard this before ... :)

The Shammy was trying to slow, root-park, etc. The Shammy died ...

He then proceeded to get pissed off and logged ...

1 death in almost 5 hours of grinding in PoD ...

Some people just aren't satisfied with damn near perfection ...

Either way, I wish SOE would find a good way to increase the aggro generating capabilities of Warriors ...

[BlackMage]

At my level it is about the equip mostly. I recently just changed servers and I don't have too much. I see all these twinks running around with centi ss and ls or lammys and whatnot. How can I compare to them? Weilding my 17 39 partisan that I bought with my life savings (30 plat) and any armor I could scrounge up. 90% of the lowbies out there are twinks. I can't even solo. Stuff isn't good enough I suppose.

The difference between warriors and pallys/sks at this level is what? 100 hp at most? They're all twinked to hell though so they outdistance my hp by about 300 to 400. Plus, they got spells.

Wow, I'm starting to sound really annoying. I'll stop now. My point is. We need quests that can atleast get us a decent weapon/armor. The newbie quests we get don't cut it. You can spend the time you are questing to make cash and buy stuff twice as good at bazaar. There also needs to be a bigger difference between us and the hybrid classes. Give us something that will put us on a spotlight.

[Hyardgune]

Really, until you get into PoP, warriors and knights are pretty interchangable. The aggro difference starts to become noticable in the 50s but it isn't a big deal so long as what ever you are fighting only hits below 200.

Once you get to the point where a poorly timed cast and a failed taunt = a soft skin getting painted on the walls, then the aggro starts to matter.

Also, after finally slogging my way to 65 as a non-twink, it can be done, it is just gonna suck. Be aware that you will always have inferior gear to the twinks, accept it, and do the best that you can with what you have. With the crap I was using, I never had any problems with losing out to knights in groups...until PoP. Even then, with good weapons I still lose out.

[Superchum]

BlackMage: Sounds like Stromm is your solution man. There, your Partisan would kick some serious ass. Twinking is hard to avoid on most servers, so I feel your pain. Only way to get through it all is to keep trudging onward through the levels and you'll eventually get the better gear. Or, go join Stromm and play untwinked like the rest of the server. Heh. (Stromm actually is quite fun).

Shik:
"'Tis quite silly how these days even pick-up groups are so blinded by their own perspectives on what the group "should" resemble. I still remember when getting someone in a group was taking someone in the zone just to add another person to the group . who cared if it was another enchanter; or if it was the 3rd cleric, or the 5th bard, or however..people made it work."

/sigh now you got me all nostalgic for my pre-50 days. Life was so much simpler.

I STILL try to play that way though. And I still try to associate myself with people IN GAME who play that way.

I try to look at EXP groups as groups of adventurers. And we're in this together and no matter what mix of people we get we can make this work.

It doesn't always happen that way, sadly.

But I'm trying.

The game can be frustrating enough on it's own and I think I'd no longer be having fun (as A DIFFERENT thread here asks) if I kept trying to enforce EXTRA limitations and crap on my playtime.

So that SK who zoned into Velks and was LFG for 20 minutes while I was soloing ... he ended up being my duo partner.

Or that third cleric that was in PoN graveyard LFG ... he ended up in my crappy XP per hour Treant group.

Heh. So, if it provides any of you out there with a glimmer of hope ... there are still SOME PEOPLE just looking to get some XP while they have FUN grouping. There are still some people who aren't draconian about their group make up and think "If we don't have a shaman, our efficiency will be off by MARK ZERO POINT TWO for this session!"

Or maybe I just see the logic that others miss while shouting for a healer for 55 minutes solid ... SLOW XP > NO EXP.

;-)

[Smakz]

Slow EXP > No EXP, i just wish more people thought that way.

Hell, last time i just rounded up a buncha random people was nearly 4 months ago, was lvl 61, group was made up of me (61 warrior, dual weilding skinning knives), monk with a bandaid press, Necro, and SK. We were in PoN, couldnt find a healer, so decided to beat on a few mobs. We'd kill something, then bandage heal, and med up for 10 minutes, Kill something else, then bandage back up.

Was quite possibly the funnest group ive had since PoP came out. Because the group wasnt worried that they wernt getting a blue every 10 minutes, we were just enjoying the game for what it was, and thats something that most people have lost. Play the game just for the game, and who cares how well your doing, enjoy yourself again, and you will have fun.

[EmiliaEQ]

Lowbies hurt more than ubers because of the fubar taunt.
(ubers have EB that actually makes them less useless).

[Varatho]

You do realize that at level 15 melee dps aggro > spell aggro?

Spell aggro is modified by the hps/level of a mob and perhaps even by zone. ( I'm betting pop aggro mods are out the ass but I haven't logged on in a while to test it out. )

Not to mention that at level 15 you can effectively duo with any other class in the game still.

Oh and yeah go to Stromm for that twinking problem not much you can really do about it.

[BlackMage]

I recently joined a group with 2 rogues, an sk, a shammy, and I. Couldn't keep the aggro for the life of me. Cost the life of one of the rogues though o.O. Probably because they're twinks but thats what EQ is full of now days. So basically. I can't group with twinks because I can't keep the aggro. That just seems silly now doesn't it? =P

[Crist0]

That was a shammy problem dintorr, it certainly doesn't sound like he knew what he was doing.

[Khumak]

I have the most fun in the groups where I get to pull. Unfortunately that doesn't happen much anymore

[Raunstonecutter]

Xp in the post 60 world is all about effiency. It does quite a bit. I wish I could just pull more random groups together, but post 60, you really need a decent healer and a slower.

That being said, I haven't been having that much problem finding groups as I go through. I've never been told that they wanted a knight over me. I think I do pretty well. I guess my server must be getting senile because I still get groups over knights most of the time. But don't anyone tell my server!

I personally feel if a group is going to be a dick and tell you that you can come b/c you're agro isn't as good as a knight, don't worry about it. Those are the people who usually end up training themselves, or wiping all night because they can't communicate. They are too busy trying to be effiecent. There are still good groups out there. Don't get discouraged. I am almost 65. I've never had the best gear, and everything I have now came from hard work and gifts from friends. You just have to work.

BTW, spiderling silks are good to farm =)

[Donnel]

Shik - you mean someone in your guild said the "Looking for TANK Pal/SK only?" How ridiculous. Now I guess I see why you say it was your last day on that server....

I am seeing this problem entering the midgame (I think this is what it is called now). Twinked out SK's, Pally's, Rogues and Monks with good weapons are out agroing me just on pure DPS more then half the time. Makes it hard on my Druid wife to heal the whole group (Let's face it, we all know Druid's aren't the BEST healers around, specially when she forgets to sit and med).

I guess I just have to go one step further and out DPS these classes, I mean where at my level am I gonna get anything that resembles a form of EB? Do they exist?

Barnacle Covered Axe for me I guess, I think I can just now finally afford one, LOL been saving and scrimping for about 2 weeks now.

/sigh

[Superchum]

At leve 35, Don, you're stuck.

Even if you DID happen to get a DPS weapon on par with a monk's, you're still facing a slight disadvantage DPS wise, due to skill caps. At level 35, monks have just maxxed their Dual Wield skill, all the way up to 252. That's kind of hard to compete with.

However, while twinkage does play a part in your problem, I believe it's more related to laziness and lack of patience on some peoples' part.

A little bit of effort on AGGRO management, and so many warrior tanking experiences could go MUCH smoother.

But people either think it's a GAME to steal aggro, or they just don't care nor care to try.

The only person this really hurts is the healer, or more specifically the healer's mana pool.

And indirectly it can slow the whole group down.

In ANY event, start thinking about Frostbringer. It's the first big step towards DPS + Aggro proc on a weapon.

OR start thinking about Praetor's Blade of Debility, heh. The debuff proc is quite nice at snaking back aggro you've lost to a lazy melee.

Good luck, have fun.

[Sturgis]

Yes, but's it's all relative ... if a Knight is Tanking in an exp group, then slowing too soon, over-nuking, etc. is much less of an issue ...

Not true. My main is a shaman, and if I wanted to I could steal aggro from a knight just as quick as I could from a warrior. The difference is I know how not to take aggro depending on the abilities of the tank to hold it...something many other people dont bother to learn.

Then again, I'm a guildleader and raid leader for over three years so I am an exception. Most people dont understand these things because they've always just played with concern for their own character and not much else.

[Lillyann]

I don't remember EVER worrying about maintaining aggro when I was low level, never ever for the 1-45 game. Typically, we had random groups of a few melees and a druid or a cleric, and the mob would just hit whatever they please, and the cleric would heal and we would get exp and level , heh.

Maybe ignorance is bliss ^_^

[Shikarii]

now at 39 i'm just starting to see how my wife's shammy can make getting aggro rather difficult.

boy, do i miss the levels and my red blade/praetors/ToD/JBoW/BBoT :D

now these damn things gotta start proc'ing ( esp my kunzar ku'juch )