No More PoP Flags

[Spinetwist]

Dunno if this is a joke or what but...

Taken from EverQuestLive.com coming updates:

3) Planar Progression.

Planes of Power has provided us with valuable insight into the group and guild dynamics that are involved in large scale games. The way that we had expected guilds to advance through the story of Planes of Power has become a roadblock for some guilds, and some members have fallen behind and found it difficult to catch up. Obviously this was not our intention. We want players to play with their friends and guild mates.

To correct this issue, we will be removing the flag requirements for entry into the following Planes of Power zones:

Bastion of Thunder
Plane of Tactics
Halls of Honor
Plane of Nightmare
Plane of Storms
Plane of Torment
Plane of Valor
Crypt of Decay

This will make the majority of Planes of Power zones available to everyone, and should allow most guilds to travel and adventure together. We understand that those that have already earned the entry flags for these zones have put some effort into that accomplishment. We will be giving a reward to those that have done so, though you'll have to wait to see what that reward is.

[gulug]

as its from official site i dont think it is. woot!

[Haass]

This is gay. So gay. All you people that swear by PoV XP might wanna find a new zone, because that one is gonna be filled to the brim soon as this change takes effect.

Why even bother having this stupid cockblock in the game for 8 months if you're just gonna remove it?

[Spinetwist]

I think this is crappy. Im now going to have to compete for camps with level 47 players? Come on. I think to myself how angry Im going to be sitting in Tactics and seeing "Level 47 Warrior LFG" and think to myself how ridiculously stupid this is and remember how I spent my high 40s in the Dreadlands. =(

PoV and BoT are filling up with people who are lets face it, newbs. Giving them a free pass without working for it just makes us seasoned players more frustrated, and you are taking away what we worked so hard to earn.

IF the "prize" SoE claims to give us is some PIMP piece of gear like a nice necklace or something of honest to goodness value THEN I will say cool, thanks for rewarding me for the time I put into flags. IF they give us some junk then Im gonna be mighty upset. I think we deserve something for our hard work.

LOY was supposed to give newbs their own playground. Why give them access to the big kids courtyard? I see no positive to this change. Anything in this game of value is achieved through hard work and time and time again you reward our hard work with lame loot or do something ridiculous like this. SOE you are all retarded.

Suggestion:

Make ALL the tier 2 - 3 zones like BoT HoH Tactics level 60+ ONLY.
Anything less then 60 is just a waste, finding groups at level 65 is tough enough, forget pre 60. And forget about a level 47 Warrior tanking a giant in BoT ahhaha.

Give ALL of us who worked our asses off on flags some kinda necklace or ring - "Symbol of Repeated Patience" ac 10 hp mana 100 10 to all saves.

[Varatho]

It wouldn't be the first time they took out a step of traveling to new zones ( the keys for velious ports as one example )



And 'sides its going to be fun seeing people die by the masses in zones where they are severly outpowered by the mobs.

Here is the link fyi:


http://eqlive.station.sony.com/community/dev_view.jsp?id=55816

[Haass]

It may be fun to see people die by the thousands, but it's not gonna be fun when some fucktard is anon and insists he's level 60, and cons blue. Shit like that already happens in KC, now they're just spreading it all over.

And Velious keys I think was really different. you just couldn't travel to CS until you ran thru Kael. You didn't have to XP in Kael or complete certain tasks...you just had to pray your invis didn't drop on the way. This is completely different.

[Casai]

thats gay anyone from any guild can get into pov/pos they just have to earn it same with BoT and thats enough for small family guild to xp in. There are also quests to get into HoH and some other plane (CoD?) that flags 6 ppl. I mean wtf. Those zones already becoming crowded last thing I want to see is Karnor's crowd that migrated to pov move into my xp zones.

[Gerald]

They'll probably make said zones 60+, but this is a POSITIVE change, not a NEGATIVE change. Jeez. You're NOT going to have to compete with a 47 warrior LFG in Tactics, Valor, Storms, or anywhere for that matter. Lets stick to reality here. I HATE flags. Having to go back and reflag people for basic petty stuff is stupid.

[Gerick]

i agree flags can be retarded, they frequently dont work right (just take a look at the patch messages) what POs me increasing mana by 50%, no wonder casters are ahead of us, i mean do we get a 50% increase in hp?? never! ah well back to flags.....

some of those flags require large amounts of high level people to attain so that means small guilds will have a hell of a time doing it and will have to resort to a pickup flag party. as i see it, this is as bad as players making the rotation and saying if your in it you cant get outside help with the take down. im glad SoE relised a bottle neck was coming and that the flag bugs would get more troublsom

(pardon my spelling, have dislecia ploblems)

[Crist0]

You're an idiot if you think this is bad.

Yes, I am flagged for tier 2 and beyond already.

More importantly, I'm tired of having to go back and get others flagged just to play with guildmates or friends.

[gwarf]

i thought this little statement was interesting:

Class Balance

We are going to look at improving the damage capabilities of melee classes, as they've fallen behind their magic-using counterparts at the very high end of the game. Some options being considered are:

Improve melee damage-increasing disciplines

Improve Planes of Power melee weapons

Additionally, we're looking at the concerns from players about their spells, and changing them where appropriate. The goal here is to remove annoying issues with spells, not necessarily to increase caster power overall.

[Shikarii]

hahhaha first step Karnors, next step Velketor's, now....WELCOME TO IDIOTQUEST v3.0 THE PLANES OF TRAINS

[Shikarii]

oh yeah, and a big hearty Fuck You too to them for...well, for just being their usual fuckasstic jackfuckingbackwards selves

[Azlana]

Part o'me is likes 'ugh' afta all dat wurk getting flagged and stuff. Odder part o'me is thinking great! Dere lotsa folks from m'guild dat m'no has been able ta group wit due ta da fact dat dey no had flags. Ifn dey said dey were going to remove flags AND adjust da mobs downward den m'would be more miffed. M'likes ta gets 'things' buh more o'da fun is grouping wit guildmates and having 'fun' gettin inta trouble.

M'not looking feward ta da crowding dat gonna happen.

In dat same post dey say going to do dat exp readjustment thing. Once dat done mebbe things will spead out again.

[Azlana]

[i]
We will be giving a reward to those that have done so, though you'll have to wait to see what that reward is.

Hee hee would be wonderful ta has like *poof* here ya go! 100AA points!

Bwaahahahaaaa

[Haass]

The flag system that everyone thought was gonna be a good idea had some bugs, so rather than fix the bugs, they fuckin scrap the system. WRONG FUCKIN WAY TO GO ABOUT IT.

Everyone agreed that flags were a better way to do shit than some lame ass gay key quest, and this is what happens SoE can't bother to code shit right or fix it...they scrap the goddamned system and throw it all down the shitter.

If they make all tier 2 planes 60+, that will be one thing, but they're NOT gonna do that. They WILL NOT. There are already sub 60's in valor, they won't take that away from them.

This game is obviously on it's last legs...it's going downhill fast. You'd think there would come a point where you just stop dicking your customers around, but apparnatly they haven't reached that point yet.

[Lorddaeth]

i like the patch.

i've seen the internal strain it has placed upon my guild to keep pushing people through trials in PoJ, and then again the giants in PoS and we're just starting the BoT.

i've seen this flagging system also tear many many guilds apart.

they aren't doing it to piss people off, they're doing it so that friends can play with friends again.

there might be some initial crowding. but once the 700 hp 51 wizard realizes he dies in 2 hits from a golem, he won't be there very long. natural selection will weed out those that shouldn't be there.

[faederya]

they aren't doing it to piss people off, they're doing it so that friends can play with friends again.

I agree also. Though I admit, for selfish reasons, I enjoy being the only group in COD or Tactics. It would still be nice for some of my small "casual" guild memebers to enjoy romping through COD and Tactics.

I know these side quests arent "hard" but there really boring to complete. I welcome this change.

[Khabok]

They also plan to make it so the 61 plus crowd can gain exp in many of the older zones again, and that will make many folks happy. Not everyone is out to gain maximum exp for hours played, some folks do play to have fun and spend time with friends, and having only 2 or 3 zones to exp in if you were 65 and not in a raiding guild sure did limit the fun factor for many folks.

I see many things in these plans that only look good to me.

[Adzar]

I am not quite sure what to think of this. I personally am not flagged at all and even though it would be cool to know I could go to these zones I have no intention of doing so until I am an appropriate level. I would hope that others who are not capable of fighting in these zones would use the same common sense. I somehow doubt that is realistic though. I think that while the flags were a gigantic pain in the ass they made you work towards being able to XP in these zones and I can see how those who have already done this would be pissed off.

[Macbrother]

No.

You didn't have guilds working their asses off, wiping multiple times and spending lots of man hours trying to get a Great Divide tooth. They just completely slapped in the face anyone who had to work for these keys. Flags were supposed to be part of the reward for killing new content. People could stomach the crappy itemization off of Tier 1/2 Gods since they got a flag and a new zone to go with it. Now, we get this?

I'm sorry, I feel this is an incredibly lame change. There are better ways to go about the backflagging issue.

[Wulfran]

I see a little benefit form this in that guildmates/friends who have missed flagging raids for whatever reason can now access these zones and play with me.

I see a lot of negative in that there are too many freaking newbs, who don't know how to react to these zones are going to think they have the RIGHT to be there and train it all to hell.

Hell BoT is bad enough as it is, never mind with masses of clueless idiots swarming to it.

And I sincerely doubt much they hand out for a reward will make up for the PITA in learning Aerin'Dar or Behemoth, or even for those that had the preserverance to go through the alternate key quests.

It is a slap in the face to the higher level players on the whole.

[Wilhelmm_Lanys]

This idea is right on par with The Rathe for Everquest stupidiity. Gaining access to these zones is no longer that difficult. Aedin'Darr is a push-over, MB has the HP of a fruit fly. The only shred of difficulty now is Grummus, and even he has been weakened. There are many people that are level 65, and these mobs are no longer top priority encounters for most server guilds. On my server, these guys are taken down exclusively by open raids.

If a mob can (and is very oftenly) be taken with an open raid, I fail to see the poroblem. They are on 3-day respawns, not seven days. Even casual gamers, in my opinion and from talking to numerous casual gamers on my server, can sign up for an open raid to kill this stuff.

As for guilds who are still attempting to reflag their members for these zones, this is something everyone has gone through. Everyone that didn't manage to get all their members flagged in one or two attempts has endured these problems. Personally, my guild did Aedin'Darr at least 7 or 8 times. If these changes are to be implemented, then guilds that have already completed these encoutners, and others, such as Saryn, Bertox, MM, RZ, etc, should automatically have every member wearing that guildtag be flaged for every single mob that paritcular guild has killed, along with AA compensation.

Raiding has always been a part of EQ. From the 12-hour PoH/PoF raids, to the 8 hour HoT/NToV raids, raids were a part of EQ. People sat through these raids, sometimesa with nothing to show for it for a shot at some armor/equipment. Granted, loot is not a common reward from killing flagging mobs, but access to better experience zones is. If you don't think this reward justifies attending open raids to kill MB/AD/PoS Named/Grummus/TT, answer this question; if during the SoV, RoK, or even SoL expansions, players were offered a change to go on an open raid for access to new and better EXP zones, how many do you think would go? Likely, a whole lot

[Varatho]

This below will be the only things they said they will patch on the 14 :



Upcoming for May 14th, 2003



Here are some of the items we plan to include in the update for May 14th, 2003.



1) More improvements for new players are in the works. We're opening up the Legacy of Ykesha map system for newbie zones to all EverQuest players. This should be very helpful to new players trying to learn their way around the cities of Norrath. Context tips will become available. These are helpful tips that pop up when a player performs certain actions to help our new players to more easily understand the gameplay and controls for EverQuest.



2) The new Plane of Hate will be available on all servers!



3) Veksar will be introduced on Stormhammer. This ancient city was a hub of the Iksar Empire before it fell. There are plenty of interesting things for daring adventurers to discover there.



4) We've fixed an issue r with the Divine Intervention line that caused a character's hit points to get out of sync. This should be a boon to all players that cast or receive that spell.



5) We have increased the power of the Child of Bertoxxulous Necromancer pet. We'll be increasing its offensive power as well as giving it a useful spell ability similar to Banshee Aura.



6) We've remedied the long-standing situation that caused characters to lose all their buffs if they zoned with fewer hit points remaining than the bonus hit points provided by their items.



7) We have increased the maximum amount of mana that can be gained through the use of items by an additional 50%. This should provide a noticeable increase in the mana available to many spell casters.



8) We have completed what we hope will be the final adjustments to the Rathe Council encounter. The encounter should be at just the right difficulty level now, and should provide an interesting challenge to those that undertake it.



9) Travel in two zones should be a little easier now. We will be removing the restriction on Call of the Hero that existed in the Plane of Water, as well as removing the restriction that forbid the casting of Gate spells in Veeshan's Peak.



10) Due to player concerns (and to make the zone a bit more fun to play in), we will be removing the ability to summon player characters recently added to some NPCs in the Halls of Honor. We have introduced another mechanism to address the challenge level in that zone.



11) There will be a couple of improvements to Alternate Advancement abilities as well. We will be giving Beastlords access to the Mass Group Buff ability. This is an ability that many Beastlords feel would be very useful to them and make some of their buffing tasks a bit easier. We will also be reducing the reuse timer for the Magician Elemental Form ability from 72 minutes to 15 minutes. This will allow a Magician to keep the Elemental Form up for as long as he wants.



12) We have corrected a problem that was causing some people to be unable to log back into the game quickly if the were disconnected. This has been a complicated problem to correct, and we're glad to have found and fixed it.



Also, as a heads up to players that have created their own user interfaces for EverQuest, these are the interface files that we expect to change next week.



Targetwindow.xml

Playerwindow.xml

Groupwindow.xml

EQUI.xml




The flag thing isn't happening yet.

[Spinetwist]

I can't wait to see you idiots saying Rah Rah Rah No Flags, get smoked in a train due to a non seasoned player pulling in tactics or BoT. I just cant fuckin wait.

So you can play with your friends and guildies? Big deal. What does it matter if you cant find a nice quiet place to exp where you dont have to deal with mob competition and trains and lame /ooc remarks. PoP is a new level of play for us who are seasoned, everyone else does NOT belong there. End of story.

You want to play with the big kids? Fine. Earn it. You wanna bitch about getting your PoV flag? Go back to KC. Flagging shouldnt be a pain in the ass when you are backflagging your friends and guildmates, that should be your courtesy to do so, lazy punks.

[Auron]

Times like this make me thank god for my elemental flags so i can stay out of these zones that are just gonna be packed now with people who obviously werent meant to be there. Its not like its a big challenge to get flags to all these zones if you dont show a little initiative, on my server there have been many successful pickup raids on AD/TT/behemoth/PoS giants/grummus. I thought the original plan was adding the raid feature so there really wasnt a strong urgency to go back and reflag because friends could still join a raid. If you have a lower lvl friend who cant join you for exp because they dont have a flag, guess what oh well its your choice to exp with them so go to a lower tier zone and kill. In the end they will try to throw us some bone of a reward that will be worthless most likely to try and make us think all the effort we put in wasnt for nothing.

[Gerald]

So much anger and hate and ignorance in so many of you. You'd like to call me an idiot because I have a differance of opinion would you?

Only serves to prove my point.

In case you haven't noticed, "less seasoned players" are already in BoT, PoTactics, PoV, HoH, and PoStorms.

CoD, PoTorment, and PoNB are all virtually useless zones aside from the bosses there needed for progression.

You can't sit there and tell me flagging is fun. The only positive side of it is it serves to block other less fortunate people from being in your playground. I myself have missed out on EVERY Aerin'Dar kill and even tagged along with another guild to get the flag only to have the flag mob depop almost immediately after spawning. THIS is why flags are a horrible idea.

You are NOT going to have to compete with any of these "less seasoned players" for groups and what not because they won't be of any use to a group!

I agree that it's cool to have them in place for places like the Elemental Planes, but even then I think it should be a guild flag and not an individual flag.

[Dobbo Baggins]

i like it cuz then no trials. but i feel sorry for the 62-64's getting mobbed by 57-59's.

[Haass]

You can't sit there and tell me flagging is fun. The only positive side of it is it serves to block other less fortunate people from being in your playground. I myself have missed out on EVERY Aerin'Dar kill and even tagged along with another guild to get the flag only to have the flag mob depop almost immediately after spawning. THIS is why flags are a horrible idea.

You are NOT going to have to compete with any of these "less seasoned players" for groups and what not because they won't be of any use to a group!


Then I hope for your sake that what you're saying is right, because here's what I see happening to with that situation.

Lets say they didn't give Halls of Honor access (i'm making this analogy because I don't know what flag mobs give access to elemental planes, nor do I give a flying fuck, bear with me) in the free flag program, and you still had to kill Aerin to get access. Do you think you would EVER get a kill on him with every guild on your server with more than 30 people trying him? Seriously, there is going to be 4 to 5 times as many guilds racing for the same shit now. Yes, Aerin Darr doesn't apply..but if you want to get to the elemental planes from where your guild is now, how many other guilds are you going to have to compete with to even get a CHANCE at Rallos, or Fennin or what have you?

This is a good change if you maybe never got a friend flagged...you can XP in the same zone now. Of course, it's a shitty change if you ever think you're going to progress past Tier 2 with the masses all thinking they can take a crack at a big flag mob.

[Kellaen]

After thinking it over for the night and today i've come to realize just how stupid a change this in paticular is. All the boss mob req zones listed there have alternate methods to gain entry to for xp reasons, why scrap it all now in one huge sweep? Don't forget some of the alt entry paths were a total pain in the ass, what do those people get now for the work? Shit all now.

No I've never done any of the alternate entry quests, all my flags are from kills. I really hope people are /feedbacking against this change. The flagging system sucks, but so does the thought of hard work down the drain. If they do go through with this change I hope to hell they impose hard level limits to zone in. 62 req tier2 , 65 req tier3+.

[Adzar]

Hmm I think heavy debate and disagreement is all well and good but Steelwarrior has never been about calling people idiots because they disagree. If you feel the need to act in such a way I say go to a flameboard and do it. What is most attractive about these boards is the fact that healthy conversation can lead to interesting insight without flaming. Sorry to be a wanker but there is no place for this stuff here IMO.

[Superchum]

Oh god. This is pathetic.

Answer for YOURSELF one question, before you rage about the proposed changes to flags:

WHY DID YOU BOTHER TO GET FLAGGED IN THE FIRST PLACE?

Was it to level?

If so ... then you got your levels, you're 65, you've got AAs. ENJOY it. You got what you wanted out of your flags. There's no need to bitch and moan about the flag changes at this point, since you already got what you wanted out of the PoP tier system.

Was it to get to the elemental planes?

If so ... guess what ... your flags lose NO VALUE whatsoever, since you STILL need them all for entry into the elemental planes. So you have no reason to bitch and moan about proposed changes to the flagging system, since they do not affect the QUEST to enter the elemental planes in one bit.

Was it for some OTHER reason?

If so, think about that reason. Odds are it's not a very GOOD reason.

And there are many MANY good reasons for this change to take place.

Like now, half of my friends' guilds, and my OWN guild can all group together again as we're not split off from each other.

Like now, we have a reason besides PoK books to actually USE the planes.

Like now, we're not waiting FOUR hours to try ONE shot at execution trial because the line is too long.

Like now, people can change guilds and not have such strict flagging requirements.

Like now, old guildmates can come BACK to EQ and not be 5 months and umpteen million flags BEHIND everyone and just scrap the whole idea of coming back to play with friends.

All of the selfish reasons ... like "I don't want to share my XP with level 58s LFG" or "I don't want to deal with trains" ... they just don't OUTWEIGH the GOOD reasons like "I can now actually HANG OUT WITH MY FRIENDS AGAIN."

Level 65s will still get groups before level 58s.

Half of those zones were train filled messes ANYWAYS. And the other half were just used for the uber soloers. That won't change. The Flag quests still exist for entry into the lucrative zones.

This changes NOTHING. All it changes is that some people may actually get to rejoin their friends and guildmates in a zone they didn't get a flag for because, god forbid, they had to WORK the day the rest of them got flagged.

It's gut check time people. All the whining makes this thread sound like a MONKLY BUSINESS THREAD.

Believe, I'm VERY familiar with those threads.

[Gerick]

Let me say this dont like a level being in *your* plane that we all help to pay for then dont group with them, if no one groups with them then they will get board and go elsewere so what if you have to see some stupid ooc and shouts, /ignore works

[Gerick]

/agree 100% superchum we all pay for the zone no one should say they have more right than anyone else

[Spinetwist]

You are right the SteelWarrior isnt about flames, but you know what it is about? Ruthless common sense. And it doesnt make any sense to have all this work put into something and then just axe it because some people are not intelligent enough or not willing to put in any effort into gaining something. Eq is about working hard to get X goal. IF you wanted to play with your friends and guildies then dont complain about backflags and friggin help them.

As for sharing exp and camps etc. Im going to be selfish on this one. I busted ass to get my flags and your damn right Im angry that it just got handed to someone who didnt even earn it.

You dont have to agree with what Im saying, but you are kidding yourself if you dont think this change will affect zone populations, camps, and trains etc.

Person X spent 3 weeks collecting crap from the planes to do the alternate quest to gain access to the Halls of Honor. Person Y gains access by doing absolutely nothing. Im missing the point where you guys think this is all right? SOmeone care to explain?

Im pretty surprized at all the support given to the "No Flag" process in this forum. Im also starting to wonder if some of you so called Warriors have daisies painted on your breastplates, and prance around singing Kumbaya.

[Haass]

Ya know, i'd agree with you Wu, except for one simple fact. There are plenty of places for casual players to go. PoP was designed....read it again DESIGNED for high end play. It was designed for big guilds to have something to do because they were done with Kunark, they were done with Velious, and they were done with Luclin.

PoP was NOT designed, so that you could start in your noob zone, go to oasis, go to LOIO, FM, OT, DL, Velks and then spend the rest of your life in PON killing in the outdoors and accomplishing nothing. There are plenty of places for those people to go, plenty of things to do with their friends, and plenty of content for them (Hello...useless LOY expansion anyone?)

PoP was DESIGNED to be a keyed area...only instead of making you do key quests, you were given your key via being at the death of a certain mob or group of mobs...because no one liked doing emp keys, no one liked doing VP keys. Keys suck. Flags were a better way of dealing with the situation, EXCEPT for the fact that SoE refused to fix issues with the flags (IE, make a guild flagged, borrow flags, etc), so now they're just scrapping the system altogether because people whine that they can't be with their friends. You've got 5 goddamned expansions to be with your friends, PoP was designed to give the GUILDS something to do, and right now, all this means is that guilds who need something to do are gonna be racing with gimp guilds who think they need something to do for mobs like Rallos, which will end up stopping everyone from advancing. There was already a 200 man zerg force on Rallos. You don't think that's gonna become commonplace now? I think it is.

[Gallerus]

/agree 100% superchum we all pay for the zone no one should say they have more right than anyone else

You have a vp key ? a st key ? an emp key ? a vt key ? No, you didnt have those when you made your lvl 1 toon - you had to go obtain them...thats part of the game!

Guess what - you can get into ALL the zones they are unkeying by doing quests that key 6 people at a time & are SIGNIFICANTLY easier than say comleting a VT key. Its no ones fault but your own that you are too lazy to go do the damn quest.

There is NOTHING wrong with having zones that require keys/flags. There IS something wrong with taking flag requirements off zones that people have spent thousands of man hours working on flagging/backflagging their guild for. Its a slap in the face to everyone who put in the time & effort.

Now for mobs like tz/vz i'll not only have to compete with people who actually earned the right to be in the zone & fight those mobs, i'll also have to compete with the other fag guilds on the server that have blown the behemoth spawn once a week since freaking pop opened up. I cant wait till these idiots start bitching about us doing rz cycle while their raiding the freaking tactics pit for spectrals...or better yet - I cant wait till they start working on the rz script themselves...even though they cant even kill behemoth - gimmie a freaking break.

Flags are there for a reason - the individual quests to gain access to those zones are there for a reason. Removing flag requirements from these zones is lame & retarded & nothing more than a bandaid solution to the REAL problem which is the morons released a whole expansion that 1) destroyed virtually all other content xp-wise & 2) locked the majority of people into 2 shitty zones that have no loots for them to get to improve their characters.

The solution to the problem is to provide more content for non-uber lvl 65 people - not to destroy the content they have in place now.

[Isk]

Indeed. This is a dicey subject but we can be cool about it.

[Gerick]

you know you are getting an item/xo/AA reward or something right? its not for nothing you might even get a uber charm

[Gerick]

missed my point gall, we all pay our money for this game, no one can claim right more than another unless they are sony, im talking real world not game world

[Spinetwist]

I dont have my VT key. Who do I have to whine at to get them to make that a non-key accessible zone.

All the people who worked hard on getting their keys and then say they support anyone who can have free access are either people who dont have the keys or are hypocrites.

[Spinetwist]

""missed my point gall, we all pay our money for this game, no one can claim right more than another unless they are sony, im talking real world not game world""

IF you wanna play a game of equality and butterflies and happiness I suggest getting something along the lines of the Sims.

Thanks.

[Haass]

missed my point gall, we all pay our money for this game, no one can claim right more than another unless they are sony, im talking real world not game world

Your logic is flawed.

If you work 40 hours a week and I work 60, are you gonna be bitching that your paycheck was less than mine? Exact same principle. You can only get out of EQ what you put in, and i'm sorry if you haven't figured that out by now. If you only play 5 hours a week, you are not entitled to the same things that people who play 40 are. Period.

[Superchum]

VT Key?

VP Key?

Guess what ... ELEMENTAL PLANES ... yeah, they're still off limits without a large, involved quest. They are the Planes of Power equivalent to VT and VP. Get access to that place. Get access to the plane of time. ENJOY your PoP equivalent to those zones.

This is more akin to not having access to Wakening Lands or Siren's Grotto.

Which not everyone had access to at first.

Now they do.

And now everyone will have access to more content in Planes of Power.

I understand the knee-jerk reaction.

But really, that's all it is, a knee-jerk reaction.

And to those who think this de-values your work and is a "slap in your face" ...

It's not.

It's EQ. In a nutshell.

You put in those manhours to get those keys and flags to get access to content BEFORE everyone else.

You achieved that goal. You got that access. That's your reward. You also get access to the elemental planes. And YOU did the quest before the zones became over-crowded. YOU did the quest before the zones became a mess and a hassle. YOU did the quest when it was easIER relative to those who will have to do it in the future. That's also your reward.

Enjoy it. I'm serious, enjoy the fact that you got there first.

Bitching and moaning that the game is going to change months later is just that, bitching and moaning. You GOT your rewards and your amazing XP and everything else you were going to get out of those zones.

The game is about to change.

I hope it's obvious to you all WHY they're doing this. They're doing it to FREE up the high end game. Make things even nicer for YOU and YOUR guild(s).

Remember all those complaints about not having anywhere to XP at 65 in the old world?

Remember how everyone hated LoY cause it offered them nothing?

Remember how narrow and insular PoP felt?

Well, PoP's shelf life is decaying at a fast rate. The game is about to be beaten.

So SOE is back at the drawing board coming up with NEW content and new ways to keep the game fresh.

To do this, part of what they have to do is ease up on the access to PoP to get more PAYING CUSTOMERS into the higher end content.

So that they have more people willing to PAY FOR an expansion that caters to the 61 to 65 crowd.

Yeah, I know how you feel. It's pretty frustrating to see your quests GIMPED.

It's annoying to think of what the zones are going to be like with level 52 druids trying to KITE mobs that hit for 800 or more and quad.

But this is just the first step in a series of steps to provide MORE for you and your crowd ANYWAYS.

Rant and rave all you want. Just remember that a little foresight and patience may actually be what's needed here.

[Spinetwist]

"" If you work 40 hours a week and I work 60, are you gonna be bitching that your paycheck was less than mine? Exact same principle. You can only get out of EQ what you put in, and i'm sorry if you haven't figured that out by now. If you only play 5 hours a week, you are not entitled to the same things that people who play 40 are. Period. ""

amen. preach on brotha. fight tha powa.

[Superchum]

"If you work 40 hours a week and I work 60, are you gonna be bitching that your paycheck was less than mine? "

In the real world, I may have a higher rate of pay or a better benefits package than you. Which is why I might work 40 hours and actually COULD make more than you in a week. So if my paycheck was smaller than yours, I WOULD have a legitimate gripe.

But that's getting off track.

You are correct about Everquest. It's all about the TIME you put in.

If I only put in 5 hours a week, and you put in 40, you should be much more powerful in the game than I am.

And the way the game is structured, odds are you ARE much more powerful than I am.

Everquest is all about rewarding those who put in the time.

The powergamers and "uberguilds" get this way because they put the time in.

TIME is what separates my avatar from your avatar in EQ.

Which adds irony to the PLANE of Time being the current top of the mountain in the game.

[Kellaen]

Take a look at the zones currently that are avaliable to access simply from six person encounters.

PoValor
PoStorms
CoDecay
PoTactics
PoTorment
HoHonor

Now take another look at the additional zones that are going flagless. They typically require two to three groups effort to gain access currently.

PoNightmare b
BoThunder

Eight new zones you can gain entry to for the much vaunted "xp purposes", only two requiring more then one group and no more then eighteen total people. Yes some of those zones are in dire need of upgrades / revamps, but that is another topic.

Please do not tell me a casual player cannot go anywhere other then tier 1 zones, with the help from as many as five other people you can goto six new zones. That is opening up more then double the content avaliable to anyone fresh in pop, only requiring some *gasp* friends and grouping.

What is the big issue with keeping the current access requirements, money? I paid $30 bucks for LoY but the content is useless to me, should I rant and rave that those zones should be made level 65 territory because I paid as much as someone with a level 40-50 character? I don't think so. Be happy zones are as easy to gain entry to right now, with no hard level requirement then 46. Hopefully someone at Sony will see how crappy this proposed move is.

*Fixed bold tags

[Aveen]

I think this is the worst idea ever. It really separates the people who are willing to do a quest from those who aren't. I would have been happy had they made the flag quests easier, but removing them completly negates any sence of acomplishment.

Bad move VI.

[Hussar]

To the people saying that this will let you play with your friends, you always could have, it's just some of you decided you had to have the better exp instead of exping with your friends. This is a slap in the face, especially for those who went through those piece of shit alt quests that sucked ass to work on. The reward for having the flags sure as hell better be good. No more having a nice quiet zone away from the retards that need to have long conversations in /ooc, away from the dumbasses that are constantly fucking training. BoT is already lost to those types, now the rest are going. I'd be fine with them just opening up PoV and PoS, even BoT wouldn't be too bad, but all these zones? So since I'm not elemental, I get no more relaxing exping, great..... Already getting burnt out from this damn game, this doesn't help.

[Superchum]

Welcome the EQ the REST of us play.

"This is a slap in the face, especially for those who went through those piece of shit alt quests that sucked ass to work on."

HAH. I refer you to Veeshan's Peak.

Or maybe Vex Thal.

Or howbout Sleeper's Tomb.

I have a hard time believing we BOTH play Everquest if you're going to complain about KEY quests being GIMPED when content gets old.

"No more having a nice quiet zone away from the retards that need to have long conversations in /ooc, away from the dumbasses that are constantly fucking training."

Go to Hate's Fury. Enjoy.

"So since I'm not elemental, I get no more relaxing exping, great....."

As stated above ... welcome to the game the REST of us play. Since I'm NOT flagged for tier 2, I get no relaxing EXping either.

"Already getting burnt out from this damn game, this doesn't help."

But the new expansion will help.

[Haass]

In the real world, I may have a higher rate of pay or a better benefits package than you. Which is why I might work 40 hours and actually COULD make more than you in a week. So if my paycheck was smaller than yours, I WOULD have a legitimate gripe.

Well, it's a nice argument Wu, but it's wrong too.

It's everquest, we all have the same oppurtunities, the same things to spend our time on. Some of us choose to be more efficient in that time than others, meaning we get more out of the game.

You have the oppurtunity to get flagged, you have the oppurtunity to join a good guild and get phat loot. You CHOOSE not to (and in this case, the choice revolves heavily around real life activities..some of us are forced to make the choice that we can't join an uberguild due to time constraints...but that goes back to the main point).

Everything IS available to you...IF you make the time commitment. If you don't, you won't get there as fast. Case in point...the top guilds on each server finished with Velious a long time ago. My group didn't play as much as other guilds did, so we weren't finished with Velious 2 years ago. We were just finishing up HOT when I quit a couple months ago. What does that say? Does it say that the casual gamer can't get to every zone? No, it just means it will take them longer to do so, because they put in their 2000 hours over 3 years rather than over 1. Same thing with every expansion. Every person isn't going to have access to all the areas right away, but that doesn't mean they can't get access eventually if they choose to continue working on it.

If you want to get flagged, I don't give a crap who you are, you can do it if you want to. If you upgrade your gear, level up past 60, make a few friends, you WILL get flagged. This just caters to people who don't want to work for it, and want the game handed to them on a silver platter just because they paid for it.

[Hussar]

What about those other keys? I've done all but vex thal out of those, whats your point in listing them?

And if I remember right... those quests haven't been changed much, so what do they have to do with this really?

If you get no relaxing exping, heres what you can do. Get some friends, get flagged. Simple. You don't have to be a lazy ass who gets it all for free, you can actually do the work like the rest of us did. The only thing holding you back is your decisions. You want in, do the work like the rest of us instead of get prizes for sitting on your ass.

[Superchum]

"Well, it's a nice argument Wu, but it's wrong too."

The rest of that particular post actually detailed how you were right about EVERQUEST being ALL about time committment.

Real Life isn't. That part of my argument was correct.

Everquest is not real life. Time is the ONLY difference between two avatars.

"This just caters to people who don't want to work for it, and want the game handed to them on a silver platter just because they paid for it."

IMO, this move doesn't cater to anyone. It's just part of the ongoing process of changing the game.

They're getting ready for a new expansion.

This is part of that.

They have two choices here.

1) Continue to allow NO PLACES for level 61 casual players to XP, so that they get BORED with the game, BURNT OUT and QUIT.

2) Assit them by allowing better XP returns in the old world, opening up some of the other bits of PoP, and ushering in a NEW expansion for the ubers to get interested in.

Which do YOU think sounds more like SONY?

You've conquered PoP. Veksar is next. After that, there will be other content you'll get to conquer. You'll soon forget all about the planes of power.

And the rest of world will be playing in the sandbox that you outgrew the year before.

It's nothing to panic over. It's just the way everquest is.

[Crist0]

some people are not intelligent enough


If you believe progression in this game is about skill or intelligence I pity you.

[Haass]

1) Continue to allow NO PLACES for level 61 casual players to XP, so that they get BORED with the game, BURNT OUT and QUIT.

Too little, too late.

People are already quitting EQ in droves because of just that reason. They should have thought of that 10 months ago.

I ain't gonna continue to argue with ya Wu, it's obvious neither of us is gonna change our minds. You're pleased with this, and there's quite a few of us who believe this is a really bad thing for EQ. Time will tell which one of us is right. Good fun tho, as always.

/salute.

[Superchum]

Aye, I have a feeling this entire issue boils down to two camps.

Those for and those against.

Neither will give ground. And it is a tiresome argument better left for Monkly Business.

/salute

And yeah, you're very VERY right about people leaving in droves.

My guild's been slowly deteriorating over the past 6 months. It's sad to see good friends go.

Other guilds my friends are in on my server are going through the exact same mass exodus.

It's really getting bad out there.

And you are correct, much too little, and probably far too late.

[czai]

Sorry, but I think in general this is a bad idea.

I can definitely see the merit in removing flags to *A FEW* zones. The PoV/PoS trials are stupid. I spent about 4 hours today pushing people through these trials. I helped get 8 ppl flagged but the timesink and the stress was just dumb.

I spent time in PoS tanking minis so that people could get BoT keyed. I got mine done pretty fast but more people needed keying.

So yeah, remove the PoV/PoS flag requirements, and probably the CoD requirement.... but the rest? I personally feel slighted that I spent so long getting flagged/helping others get flagged so that *whoosh* a level 46 could walk into the zone.

On the other hand, I quite agree that backflagging SUCKS. What I would like to see is a slightly easier way for more casual gamers to gain access to BoT/PoV/PoS. A quest that could be one grouped maybe.

I'm aware I sound elitist but I think SOE is moving too far, too fast, on this flag removal idea.

[Macbrother]

This is more akin to not having access to Wakening Lands or Siren's Grotto.

Which not everyone had access to at first.

This argument is flawed. A single person with invis could get access to these zones. It took raid forces of sometimes 40+ spending hours of time wiping and learning encounters to get access to the zones they are now giving away freely. Those guilds that beat those mobs to get new access endured crappy itemization because being flagged was part of the reward. Now, all of that hard work is washed down the drain. Even still, for those that weren't in guilds, there WERE quest to gain access to these same zones. I don't remember them removing the key quests to get into Sebilis or Howling Stones...

1) Continue to allow NO PLACES for level 61 casual players to XP, so that they get BORED with the game, BURNT OUT and QUIT.


Fact is, there ARE casual places for 61+ to exp. There are just less than people who put more into the game. I don't think getting 5 friends and doing a trial run is too much for a casual gamer, but you'd have to define the term. Regardless, even in this same message, they posted they would be removing the level restriction so that people can once again get good exp 61+ in the zones they used to enjoy. Removing flags that people worked their asses off for is not the way to go about this.

[Spinetwist]

I see Wu's comments. But I just shake my head since I can't even begin to contemplate the logic behind his arguements.

Lets pretend for a second you have worked hard to achieve a goal, say your final Coldain Ring or your last Prayer Shawl. Now, after being so proud of your hard work and that happy joy joy feeling of acomplishment, Sony just walks out and hands the same thing you worked hard to achieve to everyone.

How would that make YOU feel?

Everquest is a game of imbalance. If you want everyone to be happy and on the same level you need to give everyone the exact same gear and keep everyone the exact same level. And wheres the fookin fun in that?

If you take away the feeling of achievement and goal acomplishment in EQ, then what the hell is there to do? What reason do you have to play? Why keep doing quests and obtaining goals only to have them taken away? Where is the initiative I ask?

[Superchum]

EDIT: Bah. I'm going to stick to my guns about not wanting this to degenerate into a chicken with head cut off type of monk rant.

This argument no longer needs me to continue, I'm sure others will take up the torch.

I'm sorry many of you disagree with me, and I'm sorry I wasn't able to clearly state some of my points if they confused anyone.

Pass the beer and someone get Varaho a pretzel or two!

/cheers

[Spinetwist]

My RIng of Dain Frostreaver will never go outta style. Even with the new PoP rings its still hands down one of the most pimp rings in game.

[Borix]

One of the nice things of EQ is that you have to earn items or flags.

Removing the flag system is totally wrong i think. The honor of becoming flagged was very rewarding (at least to me).

What they should have done was to open more ways to gain access to a flagged zone. In PoJ you have 6 trials, but 5 are never used. Change those in such a way that some will give access to HoH, CoD etc.

Now you are gonna see a lot of trains and such in those newly opened zones, which isn't going to add to my enjoyment. Also the twinking will be booming again. No Drop items that rotted before will be used to equip level 46 alts.

Tier 2 level 60+ ==> If the flags would go this would be a good alternative. But they won't do it he he.

Borix

PS. Not a word about the taunting issue. Now that is sad.

[Macbrother]

) It's NOT washed down the drain. You still have the flag. You still got there first. They're GOING to reward you for the flag in some way. And you already got more out all of those zones than ANY of us latecomers ever will.


The flag is still there, yes. The work you had to put into getting it, now that others get it freely, is down the drain. And guess what, I get the same out of BoT this week as I did the first week I zoned in, and I won't get any less out of it the next week. People will be getting equal rewards for a vast disparity when it comes to work put in.

well, now you know how guilds like LoS and FoH felt when things like VEX THAL and Emperor were changed and made EASIER

Guilds like FoH said that Emperor/Cursed should be easier. They didn't feel slighted by that at all. These mobs were ridiculously hard (some unkillable) and were made easier, at the behest of these top guilds, not against them. They in fact considered Luclin broke because of the fact that end-game content was so fubar.

They did this to Veeshan's Peak. They did this to Sleeper's Tomb. They did this to Vex Thal.

Exactly what are you talking about? It's just as difficult to get into these zones today as it was back then. You still have to camp 10 hours for Pained Soul and whatever the hell the mob in KC's name is. You still have to kill one of 5 dragons at least 12-18 times to have a shot at primal in ST. You still have to spend 20 hours in ME praying for a Lucid Shard. There has been no decrease in the time required to gain access to these zones. And thats what we are talking about here, isn't? Access, not mob difficulty.

No, character flags aren't loot, but that dosen't change the fact that they wre part of the reward for doing the quest or killing the mob. Now, you get that reward without any work. Its just not sound logic. If they wanted everyone to access these zones they should have done so when the expansion came out.

While you are correct in that mudflation does "gimp" old content, that content isn't usually gimped during that expansion itself. That would be akin to making VT loot obsolete during the Luclin.

[Superchum]

"These mobs were ridiculously hard (some unkillable) and were made easier, at the behest of these top guilds, not against them. They in fact considered Luclin broke because of the fact that end-game content was so fubar."

You seem to be describing Planes of Power "progression" here. Ironically, you're actually describing LUCLIN progression.

Eventually you'll get the point.

"Exactly what are you talking about? It's just as difficult to get into these zones today as it was back then."

No, it's not.

"You still have to camp 10 hours for Pained Soul and whatever the hell the mob in KC's name is."

At level 65, the real bottleneck of the quest, Trakanon, becomes much easier.

At level 60 with Luclin AAs, Trak is much easier than he used to be.

At endgame Velious Trak is much easier.

That's my point. Trak, the bottleneck to the quest, is now gimped old content. Much like VP itself.

"You still have to kill one of 5 dragons at least 12-18 times to have a shot at primal in ST."

1) Primal doesn't drop in game anymore on a LOT of servers. Prismatic does.

2) You can get an ST key off of VINDICATOR now.

3) After the sleeper was awakened, well, do I really have to dredge up all THAT shit again?

"You still have to spend 20 hours in ME praying for a Lucid Shard. There has been no decrease in the time required to gain access to these zones."

Yes they did decrease the time, even for the infamous VEX THAL key quest.

Shards aren't bugged like some were initially. And all shards drop more frequently than they did when FoH and Triton first did the quests.

5 more levels have made ALL of the actual encounters easier. A bunch more AAs have made the encounters easier.

The content is getting old.

"And thats what we are talking about here, isn't? Access, not mob difficulty."

It goes hand in hand.

Access to zones is related to mob difficulty.

If you think Veeshan's Peak key is JUST as hard now as it used to be ... you're not playing Planes of Power.

If you think getting into Sleeper's Tomb is JUST as hard as it used to be, you haven't killed Derakor the Vindicator recently.

If you think getting into Vex Thal is as hard as it was when Afterlife/Triton/Fires of Heaven did it, you haven't read much of what they said about that whole time period in everquest.

If you think this change to flagging is going to gimp your own accomplishments in Everquest, it's well past the time for you to hang up your sword, because you're playing for all the WRONG reasons.

[Kamce]

Since SoE intends to take away the flagging requirement, then there should be a better reward then just some item for those that have completed or will decide to complete the flag event in the future.

I say convert the flag to an exp modifier. Those flagged will get the current level of experience that they have enjoyed in Tier 2, while those not flagged will be at an unmodified experience level (similar to other non-PoP zones)

Also, another idea would be tied to nodrop gear. For a character to get the full benefits of nodrop gear in tier 2, then they must be flagged. This can be implemented using the same feature as charms or level restrictions.

In addidition, improve the itemization/experience in some of the non-pop 55+ zones for the 61+ crowd.

Also, make tier 2 zones 61+ unless flagged.

In the end, the problem with opening up the tier 2 zones to everyone will be overcrowding. If SoE does not address this by changing experience, itemization, and zone content of non_PoP zones, then this change will be a waste of time.


Kamce

[Haass]

Wu, read your last post. Read it good. In there is every single reason why people thing removing the flag system is bad...because just like every other change you listed, it made the game more trivial.

People don't want trivial. They want a challenge., and they want rewards for that challenge. That's what keeps people playing games like EQ and why we burn out on other games so quickly. Other games are trivial after a certain amount of time. The Devs are MAKING EQ trivial after the first people beat the content. That's not fun, that's boring, and that's the crux of the argument.

[Macbrother]

You seem to be describing Planes of Power "progression" here. Ironically, you're actually describing LUCLIN progression.


I AM describing Luclin there, since you felt the need to bring up that luclin mobs were made easier to slight end-game guilds who had defeated them, which was completley incorrect.

Wu, you are correct, in that overtime, mudflation has made access to VP, ST, and VT. This is the result of new expansion's level, gear, and AA.

Please reas this next part carefully, Wubao. There are two differences in mudflation makeing these zones easier.

1. They were made easier during the expansions that followed them, not while that expansion was still end-game. I.e., VP wasn't any easier when Kunark was still the latest expansion.
2. They were made easier to access, they keys weren't completely removed like what is proposed for these zones. Planar power content is not getting old while we are still in the PP content itself. When the new expansion comes out, maybe you will have an argument. But we are not there yet.

[FarlanderB]

Improve melee damage-increasing disciplines

Ok... wtf is with this?

So the majority of warriors who use defensive disciplines get screwed?

From someone who can't exp in the Elemetals just yet, and does most of their AA'ing in BOT and Valor, this no-flag things sucks big time. /g Inc [newbs]

Excuse me if I don't /hug the dev's.

[Wilhelmm_Lanys]

Wanna talk rewards for people that have done this, fine. 10 AA for every one of the added flags completed minus PoS/PoV flag. Also, guilds who have completed all these flags as least 2 times say, should automatically have every one of their members receive every flag the guild has completed beyond these basic ones. For example; if a guild has done PoNB, TT, MB, AD, Grum, BoT flag at least twice, and have done Mith Marr, HoH trials, Saryn and Bertox once since, that guild should automatically have all their members flagged for Marr, HoH, Saryn, Bertox.

Imbalanced? Yep. Unfair? Probably. But so is slapping any guild that has done these shit-stain encounters over and over by giving every clueless fucktwit a chance to blow Rallos Zek over and over at will.

[Superchum]

"1. They were made easier during the expansions that followed them, not while that expansion was still end-game. I.e., VP wasn't any easier when Kunark was still the latest expansion."

Legacy of Ykesha is the latest expansion.

"2. They were made easier to access, they keys weren't completely removed like what is proposed for these zones. Planar power content is not getting old while we are still in the PP content itself. When the new expansion comes out, maybe you will have an argument. But we are not there yet."

The keys/quest/flagging system to enter the plane of time STILL exists whether this change goes live or not.

[Wulfran]

One "rumour" I have heard, is that to progress beyond these zones, you will still have to do the conventional flagging (i.e. kill AD to get to HoHo, Kill Grummus to get to CoD, Behem for Tactics, etc). If this is true, its a little on the right track but still isn't gonna solve the retards who will blow spawns just because they are there.

For those who are complaining about flags unfairly keeping them form zones they pay for, I call BS. Flags in large part show who has the intelligence, ability and/or perseverance to be in these zones. You need a certain level of skill to get past the PoJ Trials. You need more to get beyond to BoT, CoD, HoHo. If you don't understand that, you DON'T deserve to be there.

These zones are about PROGRESSION more than time sinks, and while it may have had some flaws, it feels like those of us who have tried to progress are getting ths shaft...

[Kamce]

Getting past PoJ trials only needs 5 - 65s and the one you want to get through. There is no requirement that this last spot be filled by someone who knows what they are doing.

Therefore, the PoJ trial is just a timesink for those pushing people through. Given time, everyone will get through.

[Smakz]

well, dont know if im the only one ... but VEKSAR!!! finally, they been trying to implement that zone for like 3 years now.

Finally, a zone thats actually on the map will be introduced. That takes away all the hate i had for possible newbies training endlessly in BoT, Tactics, HoH ect.

[Twinblade]

/rent on

DuDe, if the reason is 'making people to have chance to play with their friends in PoP'

Goddamit I also enjoy ALOT bring my guild to VT/VP/ST to have fun and do what so ever we like, piss on the the floors in VT makes me fun, and I enjoy it. Doing /rude 100times in front of Seru I also feel happy, why don't just fucking take out all these requirement for these zones?.

The corkblocking flag system has been hindering many peeps, many guilds to access many place they WANT to, so they all work hard on it, or just quit. Getting flags is by no means easy, but at least require u put up some teamwork there. Remove those flags, I can see zerg's guild #1027 rushing to HoH/BoT/Drunder and fuck all things up.

Just like Furor said in his page, Sony will nerf encounters based on WHAT you and your guild are capable of doing. Coirnav too hard? No fucking problem - we'll take out our massive nerf sticks and make the encounter doable for your average 90 man zerg gimp force.

Man, it is the gayest idea I ever came up with in EQ, dev team peeps, please walk out, take a deep breath, and think what freaking changes made in EQ earned credit(from players) since 2000.

/rant off

P.S. /rant on
don't freaking tells LIES on reviewing a fuck on melees, u guys simply not doing it. Check other post here and u can see 'melee tanking ability' will be revealed and blah blah blah--3 MONTHS ago. Now u guys put up another 'Improve melee damage-increasing disciplines' &
'Improve Planes of Power melee weapons' to stall time for fixing Plane of Time WHICH u have like 8 months to do it.

/rant off

[Crist0]

I'm sorry twinblade, there aren't any end game zones in pop that they aren't opening to all?

Ohhhh....right.

[Macbrother]

Wubao, do you even read and interpret points, or do you try to look for a sentence you can refute?

Is Legacy of Ykesha end-game to you? Does it have anything, whatsoever to do with this discussion? Finally, we're not talking about Plane of Time here. The fact is, completely removing any entrance barriers to these zones trivializes all the hard work put into getting there and throws "more time in, more gained" out the window.

[Dobbo Baggins]

theres goods and bads in everything. the good thing is people that are good but don't wanna be guilded because of playing time/RL get to visit stuff they never would. bads=alot of newbs

[Gallerus]

Yeah he really is, thats why its not worth responding to his posts. He is just some guy who has read a lotta msg boards & thinks he knows about the game, when in fact, he doesnt have a clue.

[Varatho]

, completely removing any entrance barriers to these zones trivializes all the hard work put into getting there

People bitch about timesinks, because they suck.

Keys and flags are timesinks, they do not make you stronger, you cannot go around saying now with the power of this flag I have, I do more dps or have more hps or can cause spells to last longer. They only serve to cockblock you for a while to give the illusion of more content that what is really there.


So finally they remove the timesink, no one has gained any power, and no one has lost any power. People that are too weak for the zones they will try are still going to die because despite the flag and key system and despite any other system that they make. They will get in, they will die, and they will figure out that in order to gain exp they will have to move to a place with weaker mobs. The mass suicide will last for a week or two. After that there will be a few more people in your hunting grounds, something that was going to happen anyway.


So basically this argument is all about " I got F*cked in the ass, now you should get F*cked too." Don't pretend it's for some other noble cause. However, I can agree with that reasoning. If this change goes live and if people with flags now have nothing to show for it when yes there will be reason for the hate.

Now keep in mind it wouldn't be the first time people will get the shaft because something is different now, that's just the way change works. Not just in EQ, that's the way it all over with examples in science, in economics, and in politics. Something new comes in, the old ways go out. The time spent with the old ways is gone and will need to be redone with the new, giving those people that already used the old ways the shaft. This will happen again and again as the new becomes old and gets replaced.

And they call it progress.

[rolsdar]

This is a kick in the ass for everyone that has worked hard to get these flags.

Its also unfair on people who arent in guilds that can get them the flags.

Theres a simple solution to this open up the zones to everyone, but put a lvl limit on them.

Make them that you cant enter the zone until LVL 63. This is fair to all players and means we would not have a bunch of lvl 50's training the hell out of them.

Just my 2cp.


:D

[Superchum]

You stated that Planes of Power was the latest expansion.

You are wrong.

Legacy of Ykesha is the latest expansion.

You brought it up, not me.

In any event it doesn't matter.

You are missing the overall picture here.

Get your head out of your OWN posterior, click off of your MAGELO, turn off your own guildchat, and THINK for a second.

SOE is losing customers.

They are losing customers because of Planes of Power. They are losing customers because of the flagging system.

No other expansion in the history of EQ has been THIS exclusive.

It's driving people away.

While YOU may enjoy it, the MAJORITY of the playerbase does not.

In fact, this very board here, as well as most class message boards were FILLED with people ranting about how back flagging SUCKS and how flags in general SUCK for months on end.

Now, all of a sudden, they're great? Please. Spare me the drama.

Point blank, SOE is trying to find a way to keep people playing the game, and to bring some of its players back.

Getting rid of the flagging system for those zones WILL do this. That's a gurantee.

If you've got a better idea, feel free to /feedback it.

Until then, put up or shut up.

[Shikarii]

problem Wu is that people already hit their "last straw" with the fuckholes behind VI.

They leave now; ain't nothing bringing them back. Sorry to say this but EQ has started to begin it's death throes trying to hang on and once SW:G hits the shelves I'd put money on it that people will be leaving EQ in droves.

I just HOPE that Sony/VI/whoever has learned that bending their customers over and giving them the hot beef injection and telling them it feels good isn't the way to build a game.

[Isk]

What Shik said. This is too damn late. Most people who've quit partly because they couldn't/wouldn't get flagged for Tier 2/3 zones aren't coming back, ever (like me!). If Sony really wanted to keep costumers they should have listened to feedback months ago. This is a poor business and gameplay move.

No one said flagging was great, but it was generally fair. Sure there were problems but everyone saw them in some form. Now all a sudden Sony wants to address the "issue?" Fuck that.

PoP was the latest effective expansion. For all intents and purposes, LoY was more bank space, armor dyes, a new race for twinks, an equipment slot that half the playerbase won't ever use, and a few new zones to get to PoP level. That's it, really. A few casual, under-60 players might disagree, but since you brought up business, let's talk about it on a business level.

[Macbrother]

You stated that Planes of Power was the latest expansion.


See, thats your problem Wubao. You don't actually read responses, you envision what you think the poster said in your head and then respond to that.

What I said, was:

not while that expansion was still end-game.

Yes, LoY is the latest expansion. Is LoY end-game? No, nothing even close, and isn't related to this discussion in the slightest. Fact: Planes of Power is the current end-game expansion. During this current end-game expansion, they are removing the key requirement that people spent hours of work on and giving them to people that put in zero work for them. That is the problem.

Jumping the gun here? Possibly. SoE still may not implement this, or they may actually give a reasonable reward. Given their past history, however, its not likely. While they are losing customers for various reasons, if you look on any messageboard discussing this you are seeing, from the majority, angry customers. I fail to see how that is a good business move.

[Superchum]

Let's play the quoting game!

Which SW poster said THIS:

" I.e., VP wasn't any easier when Kunark was still the latest expansion."

HINT: It wasn't me.

In defense of LoY and your precious END GAME ...

Hate's Fury, while YOU may deem it beneath you, isn't exactly a level 35 zone.

Nor is the final encounter there.

But you know, continue to keep derailing the thread by cracking on my reading comprehension, and cracking on an expansion you obviously don't spend much time adventuring in.

Because that's so overwhelmingly relevant.

And also, while the majority of HIGH END players, those who surf the message boards here, those who are part of the EZ-board Everquest community, may dislike this change because it will impair their own selfishness, and will castrate their virtual penis due to all that "hard work" they did ... the MAJORITY OF THE PLAYERBASE (or what's left of it) does not hang out on those message boards.

For SOE it's about money. And this move will make them MORE money.

Feel free to offer better money making solutions. I'm sure SOE wants to hear them.

[Macbrother]

Therein lies your problem. You are looking for a sentence to refute, and ignoring the paragraph. Try arguing points instead of sentences, Wubao, you'll have a much better time convincing people other than yourself.

The point was, again, LoY is not end-game. End-game is the most difficult mobs that Everquest provides to its customers. Guess what, they aren't found in Hate's Fury. Once again, Planes of Power is still the end-game expansion, and the point remains.

What's funny is, because I and others disagree, you classify them as

may dislike this change because it will impair their own selfishness, and will castrate their virtual penis due to all that "hard work" they did

Of course it couldn't be due to the fact that they feel its bad for the game and goes against what Everquest stands for. It has to be about jealousy and greed, eh? Grow up, bud. People on the other sides intentions are just as well, if not better than your own. Whether this will be a good money making scheme or not remains to be seen. It's just as possible this won't bring anyone back, and will only serve to anger the playerbase that plays this game the most (is the most dedicated to everquest). Only time will tell.

[EmiliaEQ]

I dont mind the flag removal. It wont affect me.

But will affect a lot of "middle players" that will we zerged by newbies.

Thats a very negative side effect of the opening of all the planes.

As for a reward .... SoE has fucked everyone so often and so hard
I dont even think the reward will be worth bank space.

[Sturgis]

Casual players far outnumber the powergamers. Both pay the same amount per month. Guess which one wins when push comes to shove.

[Nord]

There’s really no sense in getting into a debate over the good/evil of flagging. SoE is taking out the timesink whether those in the minority (i.e. those who have been flagged) like it or not.

However, I think that there should be an adequate reward given to those who endured the flagging process (be it through trials or quests). Now, one of the major concerns is that so-called “newbs” will be flooding zones like PoV, causing trains, and bringing about the demise of the playability in the Plane like locusts destroying a crop.

My wife recently got flagged for PoV. I’ve seen what the mobs hit for there. Newbs won’t live long enough to start a train.

But what would bring the newbs there in the first place? “L33T XP!!1!” I’ve heard it in my own guild, as well as in general groups. Everybody wants to hit the Planes because the experience is superior to anywhere else.

There’s the perfect reward for flagged toons: give people who have the flag for the particular Plane an xp bonus. Give the mobs in the zone slightly above average xp at best. That unflagged lv 53 warrior who wants to leech xp is going to find his blue bar creeping along. “Screw this,” he says. “I get killed too easily here, and the xp sucks. Back to PoN I go!” Those who just want to group with guildies can still do so. The only people they’re a burden to is their own guildmates. Flagged characters still reap more of a benefit by having the flag.

[Superchum]

I classify you that way because you've spent the better part of the thread attacking me.

I'm well aware people disagree with me on this issue.

I don't care.

I don't even care if this change happens or not. It doesn't affect me, at all.

I just can't believe the hypocrisy I see from so many of you.

2 months ago, so many people were whining about FLAGS and having to BACK flag people.

Whining so damn much that SOE listened.

And came up with a solution.

Now you all hate the solution.

Fine.

I just can't WAIT to see in a few months "FURTHER ON DOWN THE LINE" as Alan says (when this change doesn't happen) the myriad of threads once again complaining about flags and backflagging and PoP progression and all of that other crap.

[Haass]

Sorry to say this but EQ has started to begin it's death throes trying to hang on and once SW:G hits the shelves I'd put money on it that people will be leaving EQ in droves.

I don't think Star Wars is gonna take a sizable chunk of EQ, for 2 reasons. First, they attract 2 different kinds of people. Star wars is kind of a (forgive my wording, but I can't find another way) nerdy concept at this point. Star wars geeks who dress up as Luke and own action figures will buy that game...where as EQ is mostly just people who enjoy RPGs. I've got no interest in a Star Wars game...I'd prefer a hack and slash fantasy game if i'm gonna play an RPG. I'm betting there's a lot of people that feel the same way...Final Fantasy, Dragon Warrior, hell...Legend of Zelda. They're games we grew up on. A D&D based game in a fantasy setting with dragons to slay is what a lot of us know and love. Lightsabers and wookies isn't gonna have the same effect in my opinion. World of Warcraft however....is gonna probably bring EQ down, because Blizzard actually devotes time to their games.

The second reason I don't think Star wars is gonna draw a huge crowd is because of who makes it...SoE. Think to yourself honestly..after being treated the way we are in EQ, are you EVER going to buy an SoE game again? I'm not. that's for damned sure. There are a lot of people who feel the same way. They can't kick the EQ habit, but they definitely won't fall for another one. Star Wars isn't gonna take a drop in the bucket outta EQ, in my opinion, for just those reasons.

SoE is not only hurting EQ, they're hurting their future with these decisions. If your customers don't believe in your ability to produce a quality product, then you've got no business.

[Haass]

2 months ago, so many people were whining about FLAGS and having to BACK flag people.

Whining so damn much that SOE listened.

And came up with a solution.

Now you all hate the solution.


Wu, you're making it hard not to argue with because you're missing the point, and you repeatedly miss the point.

2 months ago, people were whining about flags, but NO ONE advocated their removal. They proposed many systems, on virtually every board to help alleviate the flagging stress. Guild flags, sharing flags, items that drop off flag mobs that could be used to flag other people, and others were all proposed, and were viable solutions to the flagging issue.

SoE decided to REMOVE the flagging system entirely...which was not what people wanted, nor do the majority of them want now. THEY WANTED THEM TO FIX THE SYSTEM. Refine it so it worked better, so it was less of a pain in the ass, not remove it entirely.

If I go to the doctor and say my elbow hurts, I want him to figure out a way to fix it, not cut it off, and that's exactly what SoE did here...once again...the lazy man's approach to video game creation. If it doesn't work, don't bother fixing it, just remove it.

[Sturgis]

People have been claiming EQ was in it's death throes since before Kunark came out. It aint dead yet, and I doubt Star Wars will kill it.

[Spinetwist]

Its tough to say what the future holds. Ive played EQ for a year and a half and that aint nothing compared to some of the vets.

I dont think Star Wars galaxies will necessarily knock off EQ. You have to keep in mind its a game targeted at a player base of Star Wars fans. Dont get me wrong Star Wars is cool and all, but some of us would rather immerse ourselves in a world of dragons and mythical beasts then to play in a world of sci fi - not to mention roleplaying wookies.

Anyway we are getting off topic here. Sony sucks. I want 1AA per flag I earned dammit.

[Crist0]

Let me get this straight, someone like you spinetwist, with ebay written ALL over yourself complaining about the work you have put into the game?

How many days played do YOU have on that char?

I'm curious, because you seem to place such a high value on the time you have in your character compared to the "n00bz".

[Varatho]

This thread is now nothing more than a witch-hunt.

[Shikarii]

The thing is Haass; a lot of people have been waiting for a type of Sci-fi genre game and for all intents and purposes...

listing them since EQ:
1. Shadowbane...whatever that was. still beta after 4 years.
2. Anarchy Online...I'd put money down if Funcom would have released a game that hands down wasn't so totally F'ed and broken since it's release it would have grabbed more people. Beautiful Game IMHO; but horrid for anyone without T3 or 3.0GHZ+gigs and gigs of RAM ( played it since beta, Funcom is f00ked ).
3. Planetside..heh. See Shadowbane.

The SW:G game should prove interesting. If it works. Beta reports still trickle in and as Kirle PM'd me about it; it's geared towards the casual gamer and the RP enviroment is there for the taking.

Personally, i'm sick of orcs and dragons. I want a lazer blaster and always did :D

[Hussar]

Let me get this straight, someone like you spinetwist, with ebay written ALL over yourself complaining about the work you have put into the game?

How many days played do YOU have on that char?

I'm curious, because you seem to place such a high value on the time you have in your character compared to the "n00bz".

And what does this contribute to this conversation? Worthless flame showing how low your maturity level is. As for days played, and moron could have hundreds of days played, and smart people might get up there fast.

It's one thing to discuss something, it's another to flame. Flames aren't needed for this thread.

Now, I did put a lot of hard work to get my flags. BoT is already full of complete dumbasses, I'd prefer it if the others didn't get that way.

Here's an idea, open up Valor, Storms, BoT, even PoNB if they really want, but not Tactics, HoH, CoD. A comprimise allowing some of us to keep low population zones, and still allow others to get some better exp places. I just don't want all zones going to the people who were too lazy to get off their asses and get themselves flagged. A group of 6, and actually less in most cases, can do the alt quests, they aren't hard, just take some time.

[Varatho]

Spinetwist has been around as long as I have at least.

Thing is, I stopped playing a few times.

[Raaj]

They are losing customers because of Planes of Power. They are losing customers because of the flagging system.

No other expansion in the history of EQ has been THIS exclusive.

It's driving people away.

While YOU may enjoy it, the MAJORITY of the playerbase does not.

I want you to envision something.

I want you to think about a guild. This guild failed terris-thule. They failed Behemoth. They failed Aerin Dar. They failed grummus.

They learned from their mistakes, and eventually they killed all of the above mobs. Using what they learned from killing these3 mobs, they were able to run the Carprin script. They eventually got to HoHB. They figured out Vallon and Tallon zek. Of course, lets also assume they werent using the spoilers all over the net now.

This guild put hundreds of hours of work into their flags. Did you know that in a few weeks, a powerlevelled 46 froglok cleric will be able to zone into the exact same places as this guild? Do you realize that everything they had accomplished is being tossed out the window?

Really, I'm crying a river for your casual playtime. You guys are so mistreated with your upped ZEM's, your shithouse spoilers, your ability to shout "LFG!" and have one in minutes, your nerfed mobs, your bazaar bought 65 spells, your purchased EB weapons and smithed armors. I'm insulted VI would put a TEN MINUTE TIMER on your graveyards, god forbid you have to fight back to your body. Give me a break.

This game is about a progression. You kill mob A, it teaches you. You kill mob B. It teaches you. You kill mob C using things you've learned from A and B. If you havent figured that out yet, maybe it's better you stay out of the zones they're about to open to you.

And by the way - you guys don't have to agree with one another. Conversations (including disagreements) are what keep this community going. But you WILL keep it civil or you will find another place to post.

[Gerick]

i wana say i know someone that is in beta and they let me barrow their account.... the game is hard to get into, there are alot of bugs and the interface is crap, you cant play with just the mouse or keyboard like in EQ there are alot of combo clicks, doesnt matter if you use a gun, it has a delay and auto aim so its just like a rangers bow. the only thing i can see improved upon EQ in this game is that even tho its jerky, it stays at the same amount of jerkyness and that the emotes are awsome, another sad thing about that game is almost all gear can break down. a good point about it also is you can get HP back using food (why the **** cant we do that in eq??) and there are hospitals for when no one wants to give ya a heal

[Gerick]

oh ya, notice the lack of GMs and lagged bazaars and such as of late? its because the 2 games SoE has in beta dont pull a income so they dont get their own severs and gms, they are using some of the EQ severs and the EQ gm staff...... now isnt that crap?

[Gerick]

spine and haass, just wanted to let you know ive played for 3 years, had to restart my warrior over and over because some better race came out that **cked mine to hell.

i put in 5 hours a day i dont have ANY damn casters to farm "l337" crap for me everything ive gotten with my bare hands not many warriors can say that their first main has and always will be just that, not many can say they are a vah shir warrior closing in on 60 fast.

im saying the game changes, quit crying please chances and chum is right, they probibly want a big load of 60's and 65's so that their next expantion will get more buyers, it comes down to cold hard cash like ive been saying unless your a stock holder or you can get 50 people to quit in protest they are gona keep narfing quests, keep giving casters godly AAs and better focus items

so heres the solotion dont want the flags being made a walk in the park? go to every board and to every friend and ask them to /feedback negativly... want them to make the flagging system better like being able to share flags as a guild after you hit a certan level(i feedbacked on this) do /feedback if you flood them long enough they are eather gona ignore all of us or they will listen. chances are they will listen simply because the closed off the SoE boards awhile back because of flame wars like this

(pardon spelling im dislesic)

[Gallerus]

"had to restart my warrior over and over because some better race came out that **cked mine to hell."

/sigh

[gwarf]

some better race? Ogres have been around since the beginning what are you making a frog warrior?

Everyone knows Ogres are the best warriors ;)

As for Star Wars Galaxies....PASS

One look at the in game demo screens has me thinking Anarchy Online all over again. I love how you have to fight point blank range with a laser pistol, hit auto attack and stand there and just shoot a thin laser beam at a target that is 2 feet away

Its EQ in Star Wars skins. But I welcome people to go play it....please. I love when all these people bail on EQ to go play the latest "shadowbane".

More space on my server for me.

[Smohg]

Well, I certainly hope this generosity toward low end players continues.

I got all the above flags that are going to be lifted and sure, its a bit of a pisser because I look at warriors in guild's that dont raid all the time and see them with twice the AA despite playing less. Oh well, seems their ship has come in.

Anyway, I wanted phat loot so instead of raiding in a guild and growing as a guild - I'll just quit my guild, get exp, play my twinks, do trade skills - and I know one day that SOE will put a quest NPC that will give you whatever item you request. Don't need to raid for flags? Why raid for loot then - why not just hail a gnome that says "Hello Smohg. Do you seek [phat lewts]?" and the I say "what phat lewts" and then he says "state your item" and I say "Bloodfrenzy" and then he hands it to me!

Why not? Same concept as flags - and after all, I pay for the game just like everyone else - I have the RIGHT to have the same loot.

Of course, if content is just given away or removed - why even play at all.

I think I might just declare myself the winner of EQ - conqueror of Gods, Time, and Space - if the flag system is just removed. I mean - we all are beating the game really!!! Or will be as they just remove content from the game. Sort of like a master cheat code - only its given from the developers!!!

WOOT - I am the winner. No need to play anymore - I'll cancel my account and look for the next challenge. Its all good too - the game lasted for years before I beat it - which was the secret to success.

Too bad they go and "win" the game for us - I guess they are banking that we will play EQ2 or SWG - but not a chance that I will. I'd rather win games on my own.

[Glatius2]

Much ado about nothing. No one promised you private playgrounds away from the n00bs. No one promised you that if you were good little boys and girls and followed your guild leaders rudimentary directions without screwing up too badly and were online often enough to be present for the killing of all the mobs necessary for the various flags that you'd be a 'special' person deserving of semi-private hunting grounds forever and ever.

Grow up, get over it, and deal with it. You've had your private or semi-private play grounds for almost a year now. Everyone else, who pays exactly the same amount each month as you do by the way, will now have the opportunity to go where you've been going. Now rather than having 60 people stuffed into PoS and 100 people stuffed into PoV, maybe things will spread out a little bit and rather than your typical 12 people in CoD there might be 24. Woopeee freaking doo. Cry me a river.

SOE makes plenty of decisions that reward or give special treatment to the minority of players that are in uberguilds and spending 40+ hours a week online killing things. There will be more 'special' treatment down the line, I'm sure. So they're going to let the 75% of the player base that has been excluded from 75% of the PoP zones now only be excluded from 25% of the PoP zones. All I can say is it's about damn time. Releasing an expansion where the vast majority of the zones have restricted access to the degree of PoP is just plain bad business.

[Gnomb]

Glatius, think back 8 months ago.
Everyone was complaining about a supposed useless expansion made for the high end raiding guilds and that it would only be useful for casual players for the books.
Many threatened not to buy the expansion.
The flagging concept was known before release.
I hope they at least up the required level to enter tier 3 before they implement the changes.

[Raaj]

I'll expect you to take level 46's with you to Ntov/Ssra/VT Glatius - afterall, no one promised you a playground away from them.

[rolsdar]

I hope they at least up the required level to enter tier 3 before they implement the changes.

/Agree Gnomb

The problem will not arise from the casual LVL 65 Player in the tier 3 zones.

Its going to be the training lvl 50's trying to quad in tactics pit thats is going to cause the problems.

Simple solution :-

Limit all Tier 2 zones LVL 60 and above.

Limit all tier 3 zones LVL 65 .


:)

[Glatius2]

I'll expect you to take level 46's with you to Ntov/Ssra/VT Glatius - afterall, no one promised you a playground away from them.

Oh PUUUUULEASE. Guess what, level 46s can enter NToV and SSRA, they're not restricted from entry to the best of my knowledge. But uhm, hey, they don't go there do they? When really was the last time you saw a level 46 OOCing LF NToV Group? Get real.

People go where they can get groups and where they'll be relatively successful. Yes, I imagine an occassional putz or two will try and worm their way into a group in a zone that is way over their head, so what? You boot them and get someone else or you don't group them at all. Not really that hard to do, is it? And it certainly makes no sense to exclude those people who have managed to level to 60+ from the very zones designed to accommodate them. Hello, they've screwed up the experience for level 60+ players everywhere but in PoP, remember?

And if they add a minimum level requirement of 60 to all the zones past PoS/PoV, it wouldn't bother me, or I believe the majority of players, in the least.

[gwarf]

"And if they add a minimum level requirement of 60 to all the zones past PoS/PoV"

thats fine with me, hell you have to 46 to go to hate and stuff like that, and people seem to deal with it

so why not do that?

hell you have to be 46 just to click the POT stone!

[Crist0]

If you don't see how someone buying a character on ebay* then professing the "time and effort" they put in over everyone else being the reason they should have these zones to themselves then I can't help you too much Haass.

The "noobz" you are worried about are already in the zones.

*Just played a year and a half, yet the character is a 65 troll with 101aa and multiple ssra loots as well as other higher end gear = ebay is 99.9% likely

[Brutul]

2 months ago, so many people were whining about FLAGS and having to BACK flag people.

Whining so damn much that SOE listened.

The flags are still required for progression beyond tier 2, you just don't need them to get into the exp zones now, similar to the quests for "exp only" flags. Guilds will still have to back-flag, they just won't have the benefit of their own exp zones anymore.

People have been claiming EQ was in it's death throes since before Kunark came out. It aint dead yet, and I doubt Star Wars will kill it.

Bingo. I am so sick of people saying that "EQ is dying" and "XX game is gonna kill EQ". Some dope has said that every day since before Kunark came out.


And by the way - you guys don't have to agree with one another. Conversations (including disagreements) are what keep this community going. But you WILL keep it civil or you will find another place to post.

Yep. What Raaj said.

As for the results of this. The zones *will* be more crowded. There *will* be more trains. There *will* be people who don't belong there.

There *won't* be level 46 frog twinks LFG in BoT because they won't get one, and if they did, they won't be able to do anything. If you group a level 46 in BoT you deserve to have your exp slowed down :p. I don't think a required level of 60 is necessary. Level 55s aren't gonna be going to BoT anyway unless they're getting powerleveled. Anyone with 1 high-level friend can get a Seb key, but you don't see level 40s there LFG. And if they were, people would just laugh at them.

[Frax]

These changes would be great if they implemented a level 60 limit on the zones to cut down on the idiocy factor

[Raaj]

Oh PUUUUULEASE. Guess what, level 46s can enter NToV and SSRA, they're not restricted from entry to the best of my knowledge. But uhm, hey, they don't go there do they? When really was the last time you saw a level 46 OOCing LF NToV Group? Get real.

You missed the point. Obviously that character isn't ready for those places correct? If your character was ready for Tactics, BoT, PoV/PoS, you would be able to get there. There are ways besides the kill flags - such as the single group quests (which now flag an entire group).

Once the zones are open to everyone, do you think that people will still sit in PoV doing exp? That same 60+ zone crowd will move to the next easiest experience they can. Part of the drive to get the flags for people was so they could move away from that group and be someplace others weren't in. Don't get me wrong - you getting to exp in tactics or cod isnt going to effect me one bit...I however can see where the guilds who have worked hard to get there have a right to be a little peeved.

[Glatius2]

You missed the point. Obviously that character isn't ready for those places correct? If your character was ready for Tactics, BoT, PoV/PoS, you would be able to get there. There are ways besides the kill flags - such as the single group quests (which now flag an entire group).

Acutally, I think you miss the point. Getting flagged for most of the zones in question proves nothing about an individual's qualifications for being in those zones. I've read a number of posts from people talking about getting flagged for PoV/PoS in the mid 50s because they tagged along with a guild group or a friend's group that had an open slot for the exe trial. All a flag proves in most cases is that your guild is reasonably capable, it proves nothing about you as an individual, other than you managed to get into a decent guild. I really don't think picking a raiding guild should be justification for exclusive hunting rights to the majority of PoP zones.

Once the zones are open to everyone, do you think that people will still sit in PoV doing exp? That same 60+ zone crowd will move to the next easiest experience they can. Part of the drive to get the flags for people was so they could move away from that group and be someplace others weren't in. Don't get me wrong - you getting to exp in tactics or cod isnt going to effect me one bit...I however can see where the guilds who have worked hard to get there have a right to be a little peeved.

What I expect to have happen is that people will spread out more. Yes, they may want to go to X or Y zone instead of PoV, but if all the camp spots are taken there, they'll go someplace where there is an open spot. More than once I've had groups break up because there just wasn't a decent hunting spot available in PoV/PoS/BoT. These places are just too damn crowded. Do you really expect there to suddenly be 88 people in HoH and 12 in PoV? I really don't. I expect it will be more like 40 in HoH and 60 in PoV or something along those lines.

As far as people being annoyed that they put in so much time for flags that are now going to be irrelevant, I have some sympathy for that. However, EQ is an ever changing game and many times those things you struggle for the hardest, because they're just too good to be true, turn out to be just that, too good to be true. SOE has to make changes for the good of the entire playing population, because that is the course that is most likely to keep their bottom line nice and fat. Anything else is pandering to a minority at the expense of the majority, and that is a lot less likely to pay the bills regularly.

[Haass]

You ever see someone saying something sarcastic about how they should just be able to put in their credit card number if they wanna get some nice piece of loot? Think about why they're saying that. Look at the direction this game is moving, and the dumbing down it's taking.

Lets be honest here. I'm not flagged for any of the above zones, nor do I want to be. You see something odd with that? I don't have the time available to be in an uber guild. I can't play for extended periods of time to be bothered to learn bullshit trials only to XP in the fuckin dreadlands.

Why then, would one such as I, be such an avid opponent of said changes? Because I realize that you have to put in a certain amount of time and effort to be successful in this game. You CAN NOT argue that. If you put in 5 hours a week, it's gonna take you 3 years just to get to 50, let alone 60 and a good guild. I used to log on with my necro back in the day and ya know what I did some days? I just sat with DMF on, levitating above the Nek zone entrance in EC...watching TV, or reading a book and watching the spam go by. Was it productive? Did it help me advance my character? Hell no, but i didn't feel like putting forth any effort to get anything done that day. Do I deserve to have shit handed to me for those actions? No. Not in the slightest.

My work has a union. I go into work every nite, and I work harder than every bastard there, period, and yet I get paid exactly the same as everyone else. People who just show up and do the minimum amount of work to keep their jobs get the same benefit I do. Is that fair? In my opinion, no, it's not fair. You should be compensated for the work you do. Apparantly some people want EQ to be like a union..where just owning the game entitles you to all privledges, and actually accomplishing something isn't required. I, for one, am sorry that SoE agrees with those people, because it will eventually lead to the patch that says "Upon reaching level 60, all AA abilities will be maxed out. We discovered the current progression took too long for the casual gamer."

You've accomplished nothing, and yet you want the same rewards of people who have put in time and effort into this game. That's not how I'd run it. This won't fix any backflagging issues for raid guilds...who were the people that were hurt by flags in the first place. This is about one thing....people wanting an easier path because they are unable/unwilling to handle the path in front of them.
,

[Glatius2]

Haass, those people who put in more effort and time will still reap more rewards. Do you see pick up groups taking down NToV boss mobs or keying up for VT or any number of other things that are access restricted or skill/level dependent? No you don't. There is still plenty of stuff in the game where being in a dedicated raiding guild will still gain you far more rewards then being in a casual guild.

All the same, setting up an expansion for level 60-65 players, altering the game so no place but this expansion is reasonable experience for anyone over level 60, and then restricting access to 80% of the zones in that expansion, was a dumbass thing to do from a player satisfaction standpoint. There should have only been about 20% of the zones restricted from the beginning. That would have allowed those willing to do the 'extra' work their reward while also giving everyone else room to play.

And that really is a significant problem, there just aren't very many places to play and feel like your time isn't a complete waste if you're 60+. None of the pre-PoP zones are reasonable experience and the few PoP zones without restrictions are crowded to the eyeballs.

The majority of level 60+ players are not in a uber guild. They're not getting a lot of PoP flags, now or any time in the future. And they're bored and frustrated. Which means they're leaving. Now, if you're SOE, what do you think that is doing to your bottom line? Is that a good business strategy? From where I sit, it isn't.

[Wilhelmm_Lanys]

In my opinion, static flagging is a far more effective solution to fixing this problem. Have it set at say 60.

Example: Casual_guild_01 has 50 members. 30 manage to log on simultaneously and be part of a successful open AD raid. viola; the guild is flagged. This is a by-partite solution that has the potential to help both uber and casual guilds. 30 may be hard to get on for a casual guild, but you could always go on another raid. one way or another, you can eventually get 60% flagged; considering there are quests, raids, and etc.

Let me put it this way. When people wanted gear, they raided. Those who weren't guilded or in a small guild went on open raids. The "well, it's not fair that my guild can't kill AoW. I pay my money, I deserve his loot" did not work. Why is this any different? The rewards are different sure, flags instead of gear. But tell me, what else changes? Larger # requirements to kill these mobs, yep, but not unattainable figures. impossible? Nope, all these mobs minus TT have been killed by open raids on multiple servers. Even pre-nerf MB was killed by an open raid. No physical reward; well, if you don't consider flags a reward then that is your own problem.

[Glatius2]

Why should people have to work for weeks on something which is in most cases merely access to another experience zone? Everyone has commented on how crappy itemization in general is in PoP, short of the elemental zones. It's not like people are really going to be gaining much other than the chance to spread out a little bit and gain experience. So the elites have to deal with a bit more crowding in their favorite experience spots and heavens, someone might train once in a while. Hardly justification for keeping out the unwashed masses.

[Jedediah]

The elites? No, just ordinary people who have put in the time and effort. And stop talking like we're some sort of club, where you have to know the password to get in. ANYONE can get flagged for these zones. I haven't killed MB, but I can go to Tactics. All it takes is a single group to access almost all of these zones. Sure, you'll need a couple or three groups to flag yourself for BoT and PoNB/Torment, but other than that, grab a couple of these so-called friends that you want to group with but can't due to flag issues, and kill a few Diaku Raiders or get a Box of Souls.


Besides, they're already going to go back and "adjust" the exp range for 61+; this change on top of that one is overkill.

[jaxxym]

Amazing and discouraging how much selfishness and elitism is evinced in many of these posts. I understand the challenges that come with lower levels being 'allowed' to enter these zones (hey, at least we had a brief reprieve from that standard for a few months - look at the bright side), and the issue of having worked damned hard to get flagged (I've put well over 80 hours and 25k in plat in the last month into building a 5-person non-lvl-65 trials push group for a friend's guild even though I am already flagged).

The bottom line is this:

For those who do not realize it, EQ is much more than 'just a game' - EQ is an online community. And I don't think anyone can effectively argue that the flagging policy has been anything *but* divisive. Implementing divisive policies in any community leads to damage of that community as a whole - even though it may benefit a few (typically referred to as elites) - we have lots of RL examples of that if you care to take a microsecond or less to think about it.

Lorddaeth was the first to get this right - the reason they are doing away with flags is because it's ripping guilds apart. I know of at least 4 guilds on my server who have either completely crumbled, or have been severely damaged because of the level spread split (roughly <60, >60) of the members. This has meant that some or most or all of the 60+'s in those guilds have left and moved to higher tier guilds, and the up and coming guilds who have lost most of their 60+ players have suffered a major setback and are back to raiding chardok, lower ssra, etc and in some cases can no longer raid HoT or WToV, when prior to PoP they had their sights set on NToV in the not too distant future. The overall effect of this has been to widen substantially the gap between the mostly 60+ guilds and those who enjoyed a balance of <60 and >60 players previously.

You can argue all you want to about the 'fairness' of this change, but those who argue against it are largely arguing *for* what is good for them and their small circle of friends and those like them, vs what is good for the community as a whole. There should be room for healthy, balanced under/over 60 guilds as much as for top tier all 60+ (or even all 65) guilds in this game - it makes the game better for us all in the long run. After all, without those up and coming guilds, recruitment for top tier guilds drops dramatically, leaving the minority of high end players in what become increasingly insular organizations that lose sight of the best interests of the game as a whole.

[Hussar]

Flags don't rip apart guilds. If your guild gets a bunch of members flagged, but won't flag all, then you should be leaving them anyway. Thats the biggest thing I'm seeing here, people won't help out members of their own guild, and instead bitch about how flags are ruining their guild. Also, stop with the elitism bullshit, I know it sounds like a nice little insult to us who disagree with you, but it's wrong. Anyone who can get a few friends can get flags, it's not that hard, just get off your ass and do something about it. If you actually do some work instead of asking for them free, we wouldn't mind you in those zones. In reality, you're just complaining cause you want access to these zones without doing any work yourself. There is NOTHING stopping you from getting flagged other than your decision to not do it. If you can't even handle the easy quests, then no, you don't deserve to be in there.

Flags aren't ruining anything, people being too lazy to not do them, or to help their friends / guildies are the problem.

[Glatius2]

The elites? No, just ordinary people who have put in the time and effort. And stop talking like we're some sort of club, where you have to know the password to get in. ANYONE can get flagged for these zones.

I use the term elites because that's how people are presenting themselves. They don't want the n00bs in their zones. They don't want to deal with trains. They think anyone who hasn't already been flagged for these zones must ergo be an idiot who would be detriment to the entire zone if they somehow gained access. They're better than all those people who haven't gotten the flags and don't want to share. They've 'earned' special privileges, when in fact the majority of you claiming to have 'earned' special privileges just followed along like sheep, went where you were told when you were told and did what you were told. There's no shame in that, that's how raids are successful, but don't try and portray it as some grand accomplishment where everyone involved was smarter, more skillful, and just generally better than the average. We know this isn't true.

And if anyone can get flagged for these zones, as you claim, then there really is no point in keeping people out, right? It's a trivial activity, hardly worth bothering people with, correct? Hmm, some how that doesn't make sense. On the one hand you don't want anyone unflagged in the zone, on the other anyone can get flagged as a trivial matter. Doesn't seem to quite jive, does it?

[Donnel]

/sigh

Another aspect of EQ that I will MISS because I am a CASUAL GAMER.

Yes, that is right, I wanted to get flagged. If for no other reason then to experience what so many others already have.

I have a guild. It's not a big one, we can barely get more then 6 people on at once most times (that includes my wife and my best friend who have roughly the same play schedule). We can do raids on mobs for our level (with around 2 1/2 weeks ahead notice to clear family schedules and such). I was looking forward to doing this lower level PoP flagging, as I can never really see myself in the Elementals (at least with my guild).

I guess my head was always in the clouds, because I always envisioned the end-game of EQ being this great, epic adventure with taking out huge bosses and then when you are 65 and have done everything, you strut... when you aren't playing an alt or perhaps on a different server (PvP perhaps?).

Must be my EQ Attention Deficet Disorder kicking in again. When I play I want to have fun. When I stop having fun, I stop playing. Going through flagging sounded like fun (sure maybe not the 17th time, but it still sounded fun). I hope I can find some other Epic Adventure out there.


Donnel
*Duke of Missed Cool Things*

[Varatho]

Originally posted by Crist0
*Just played a year and a half, yet the character is a 65 troll with 101aa and multiple ssra loots as well as other higher end gear = ebay is 99.9% likely


Crist0, I'll have you know I was hunting dervs in the commonlands at level 15 with Spinetiwst. However I took months off from the game and fell behind him in gear and levels.



But anyway, as predicted, this thread is nothing more than a flame fest now pointing fingers and bitching everywhere. It might have been benefited to everyone if we had discussed the pros and cons of lower tier flags, but such a thing was not meant to be it seems.

[Jedediah]

My sincerest apologies for not phrasing my response properly. It should have read:


ANYONE who cares to put in the time and effort can get flagged. But if you can't even be bothered to do that, and it really IS pretty simple, even without following along like a sheep in your raid examples, then don't go to those zones. You can still exp in other places, and once they fix the 61+ exp in older zones, you'll have even more.

[Frax]

Currently in my guild we have very few people who are unable to zone into the 4 elemental zones on their own. The people who are in this situation are either not playing a lot or recruits who are missing earlier flags. Flags don't rip apart guilds that take care of their own, if your guild won't take care of their members, then that isn't a guild I'd be in very long.

I don't feel throwing the doors open to tier 2 zones is a good idea. I pity the first guild to try RZtWL after this change is implemented, with groups entirely new to the zone all over the pit mob XP wiping out and then causing even more problems trying to CR themselves while RZ is engaged. Hopefully they'll be smart enough to make the zone eject anyone who is not part of the raid that spawns RZ out of the zone until he's dead/despawns.

[Spinetwist]

Let me get this straight, someone like you spinetwist, with ebay written ALL over yourself complaining about the work you have put into the game?

Damn I dont know why I am getting flamed here. If you would rather question my integrity and make inflamatory comments then by all means send me a private tell. I dont think myself or anyone here is impressed with it. I have a few people in these boards like Varaho who have known me since day 1. I dont preach myself to be an elite and if you will read my comment closely I say I AM A NOOB in comparison to others who have played EQ since the beginning. I dont know where you are coming from but anyway, nothing you said made any sense. Come up with some intelligent comments and arguements and then return please.

~

I also agree with the other people, cut the elite bashing. Some of us including myself spent hours in PoJ flagging other people with no kind of benefit to ourselves. We did this to help people so it isnt right that you guys can single us people with flags out as being "elitists". Its not elite, its not hardkore. Getting yourself flagged is persistence and common sense, ANY casual gamer can be flagged too, its not that hard at all. Describing us as "elite" makes us sound like some kinda snobs who think of you as inferior or some crap... might be true for some people but I know I did my time helping others.

[Kellaen]

Just because someone has ssra gear and aa's doesn't equate ebay / playerauctioned. Just because I haven't seen much of him around (hi, on xeg since june of '99, this char aug 1 '99) doesn't mean he's ebay'd, wanna know why? Most rational people don't follow someone for however long they've played to critique tracking their progress every step. I'd wager alot of the higher end people on my server don't know much of me and play times have alot to do with that, doesn't mean i've ebay'd.

Christ looking at his profile he has 0 ssra loots, wtf are you pulling that from? Sick of anon people talking shit, has ruined many other boards out there.

[Braeorn]

Lots of opinions...

I'm kinda mixed, I'm only flagged for pov/pos/bot/tactics/ponb but was proud of doing them. So in a couple of days everyone and their dog can now bypass them? Unfair...perhaps, but I think I'll do the wait and see as to what SOE does as a 'reward'. Being 63 I now have new zones to access to avoid the pov/bot overcrowd.

As far as lvl 46s running around BOT and Tactics etc, I'm doubting that will be common...it'll take about 1 or 2 GY waits for them to give it up. When I was 35, I sure as hell wasnt running into KC or other zones I had no hope in hell of living past 30 seconds. There will be more people in those zones, no doubt as I know lots of 60ish people unable to flag.

At the end of the day, I doubt the change will really take that much away from the game, nor give it that much more. It only seems logical that the progression aspect will remain in place and this new access is akin to the 1 groupable quests.

/shrug, I love the game...but its still just a game.

Braeorn Battlekrye
63rd Warrior
Povar

[Spinetwist]

My anger for this issue is the fact I did the work, and now a goal I worked for is being freely given away. Theres my anger.

Newbs, trains, camp spots are all issues, but they are going to be anywhere and every zone and theres no way to stop it.

BUT. I feel really sucker punched that something I worked for is just being shrugged off and given away. And thats my right to feel this way.

~

Oh yeah. No ssrza gear for me =( or VT. VT is a zone I will never see, and in light of recent events I am very cautious about investing the time into gaining acess to a zone that could be free to all in a few months. No initiative anymore.

[Glatius2]

My anger for this issue is the fact I did the work, and now a goal I worked for is being freely given away. Theres my anger.

Yeah, on that basis you have a reasonable right to feel pissed, I don't deny you that. Hopefully whatever SOE gives as compensation will take some of that righteous anger away.

But you know, shit happens. SOE giveth and SOE taketh away.

[Spinetwist]

Exactly. Im not going to yell and rant and threaten to leave. Im just pissed off but I will get over it. Nothing we can do to stop it.

The one positive thing I can think of is I can log in my cleric twink to loot runes. =D

[Spinetwist]

one things for sure. this issue is smokin hot. I just logged into the bazaar to see people screaming about it in /ooc

[Redhenna]

Just a few thoughts, more rambling than anything...

1) One of the best moments for me in EQ was when I finally, after 30 some attempts, all in pickup groups(no one else in guild was flagged at the time, and I always feel uncomfortable asking people for help), I finally made it past the Trial of Execution. I also remember the next day, going help get another guild member flagged(I was an expert now, I had passed*sarcasm*) and waiting behind a guild that was busy pushing some level 50's thru the trials. My point? My reward for getting flagged was more the feeling I got from passing than having access to 2 zones that many people at level 50 can get access to just by having 5 65's help them. I know of one guild that every other week does trials for anyone over 50 in the guild who wants to get thru.

2) Related to that, those people who say these zones are going to be filled with people who do not belong are missing that there are already people here who do not belong. Anyone can get pushed thru the trials. I have coming up an offer to go along with a friends guild when they do backflagging and pick up more flags. This does not make me ready for those zones, it only meens I have a friend whose guild is.

3) As far as those people who are comparing these zones that curently require flags to say VP/ST/VT etc. miss one thing I think. None of the zones that currently require keys are exp zones, they are strictly raid/loot zones. To me, that makes a serious difference.

I suspect at first, right after the flag restriction is lifted, things will be a bit crazy. I also think that it will calm down some soon after, as people realize they are not ready, get tired of dying all the time, and move back to zones they are able to handle. When I look for some one to fill a spot in a group, I open the lfg tool, and find some one of an appropriate class/level to join. A level 46 sitting in PoV shouting for a group is going to have zero luck.

I hope that between this and the changes to exp to allow 65's to get exp in zones outside PoP will actually make the game better. Whether that happens or not only time will tell.

[jaxxym]

Flags don't rip apart guilds. If your guild gets a bunch of members flagged, but won't flag all, then you should be leaving them anyway. Thats the biggest thing I'm seeing here, people won't help out members of their own guild, and instead bitch about how flags are ruining their guild. Also, stop with the elitism bullshit, I know it sounds like a nice little insult to us who disagree with you, but it's wrong. Anyone who can get a few friends can get flags, it's not that hard, just get off your ass and do something about it.

Err, maybe you wanna go back and reread the post you are responding to so that you understand what I am saying. Probably not. You seem to have made your mind up and no amount of logic will change it. Here are the salient points:

1. "Flags don't rip apart guilds": divisive policies (e.g. flags) rip apart (i.e. divide - shares the root word as divisive) guilds. This is a tautology (needless repetition of an idea, statement, or word).

So I am guessing that logically what you are attempting to say is that the flag policy, as currently constituted, is not divisive. Despite the facts I presented to you showing that it is. Instead of simply dismissing facts, I suggest you present your own set that counter what I am arguing. For example, presenting facts that show that for some reason *other* than flags, guilds were suddenly crumbling under a WHOLE lot more stress as soon as PoP came out.

2. "If your guild gets a bunch of members flagged, but won't flag all, then you should be leaving them anyway."
Point the first: I am not guilded, so clearly this is not the basis for my concern.
Point the second: Glad that your criteria for leaving a guild are so simple and now how been so widely published so that others may benefit from your wisdom. Not many would be so confident as to state unequivocally what complete strangers should do in such and such a circumstance absent any real knowledge of the specific case.

3. "Also, stop with the elitism bullshit, I know it sounds like a nice little insult to us who disagree with you, but it's wrong."

Main Entry: elit·ism
Pronunciation: A-'lE-"ti-z&m, i-, E-
2: the selectivity of the elite; especially : SNOBBERY

If the shoe fits...this is not an insult - it's the definition of the word. If you don't like it, you can't arbitrarily pretend the word has a different meaning. In case you missed it, 'selectivity' was the key word there.

4. "Anyone who can get a few friends can get flags, it's not that hard, just get off your ass and do something about it"

Point taken - again I refer you to my orginal post, wherein I say:

I've put well over 80 hours and 25k in plat in the last month into building a 5-person non-lvl-65 trials push group for a friend's guild even though I am already flagged. [emphasis added]

I got off my ass. I did something about it. As I thought my post had made clear, this is an issue of game balance. I really don't see this as a lazy-vs-hard-working-player issue.

Also, I totally agree with Spinetwist's point - I doubt many have spent 25k plat (spells for key classes mostly) and the amount of effort that I have on getting flags for other people, so I sympathize heartily. But I would suggest, as Glatius does, that the appropriate target for the anger we are seeing here is SOE for implementing what should clearly have been realized to be a divisive policy in the first place - not the other players here who *get* that this is a community vs me-and-my-friends issue.

Oh, and BTW, Glatius is DEAD ON about a helluva lot of the ppl being flagged doing it as a low value tagalong with their or someone else's guild, and therefore no special status accrues.

Having a flag != being a competent, or hard working, or properly geared player. And not having a flag != being a lazy, incompetent, poorly geared player.

[Haass]

You can quote the dictionary and attempt to pretend you know what you're taking about all you want...the fact remains that flags themselves do not break guilds apart...people do. People who have their own cliques in said guild and will do things only with those people.

If your guild has people who are flagged and people who aren't, and it's creating a strain on said guild, it's because your guild doesn't WORK TOGETHER. Cliques in your guild work together, but they don't work together in the notion that anyone with this guild tag is my brother.

If your guild is composed of people who are flagged and who will not complete a group to get you flagged, the flags did not tear your guild apart...the people in your guild did.

You can go thru all the semantics you want, but in the end, THAT is the key. When I was guilded, I helped everyone get everything they needed as far as keys and velious teeth and all that jazz, because it helped the guild hunt together. If your guild doesn't want to do that for you, then that's not the guild for you, simple as that.

Saying a flag rips apart a guild is like saying the Howling Stones key quest does. It's bullshit.

[gwarf]

Haass has a great point there, have seen this happen myself

[Glatius2]

Saying a flag rips apart a guild is like saying the Howling Stones key quest does. It's bullshit.

My guild has been very diligent about getting most of their members keyed. I however am a PST player while the majority of the guild is EST. Most guilds on most servers raid during EST, which tends to leave a lot of us PST players out in the cold, even if we're willing to spend every single night raiding, which strangely enough, some of us aren't.

Now I could spend my time each evening trying to gain some help from my guild on key quests, the majority of whom will be in the process of raiding when I log on, or have just finished raiding and be logging/getting some quick experience. Which would be a bit of a problem. Or I could give my account information to a member of the guild to log me on for some of these flags, which isn't according to the eula. Either way you look at it, it's not really as trivial as say getting together one or two people for one afternoon on the weekend to do the howling stones quest, wouldn't you agree?

[Gallerus]

Or I could give my account information to a member of the guild to log me on for some of these flags, which isn't according to the eula

This is just a fact of life & between flag requirements & requirements for certain fights (i.e. ridiculous amounts of healing, chanters, slowers, whatever). They can track it with IP addresses, they know it happens, it happens everyday & it happens LOTS & no one in even a mid level guild will tell you different.

[Nevian]

All i can say is thank god we are about to drop rallos. Hopfully by the time this happens i will be in the elementals and it won't be my problem. As for the "reward" im not holding my breath. Maby they will do something cool, maby not. Honestly it just makes tier 2 and 3 useless, but luckily that will be someone else's problem.

[jaxxym]

Well, Haass I agree with you that flags don't kill guilds - people kill guilds - guess I assumed this was kind of a self evident truth that did not need to be explicitly stated. That said, this in no way invalidates my logic.

I realize that nothing like the majority, or even for that matter a small minority, of the population out there, inclusive of EQ players, operate even most of the time out of some built-in altruistic tendency. In fact, all of human history and human evolution indicates that altruism is the rare exception rather than the rule. After all, if most of us were naturally altruistic most of the time, we would not need loot rules now would we?

Here is a fact about people: they act based on self interest. Sometimes that self interest is strictly and narrowly defined - e.g. I am gonna screw everyone to get what I want; sometimes that self interest is broader, more rational, more enlightened - e.g. helping out my guildies helps me, because then we as a guild can accomplish more, and that is to my own benefit. In almost every case, it is somewhere between these two ends of the spectrum. But it is ALL self interest, however you want to dress it up.

Now, if you look at any organization composed of people, you will find a distribution - some tend more toward the narrow self interest (NSI) end of the spectrum, and some toward the more broad self interest (BSI) end. In the case of EQ, this distribution will change from moment to moment based on whatever is going on that that particular time for each individual, which individuals with which dispositions are online, etc.

However you seem to be stating that it is all digital - a guild works together or it doesn't. They take care of their own or they don't. This is way too simplistic - things - people are just more complex than that, especially when you take into account organizational dynamics. The cliques you mention are not an abberation - they are an inevitable result of 3 or more individuals coming together.

I like your utopian view but I don't see it happening anytime soon.

So my point is that the conditions imposed by instituting the policy of flagging had a predictable impact on the behavior of players which encouraged a more narrow pursuit of self interest at the expense of others, and that this impact was most strongly felt in guilds that include both <60 and >60 players, and that the impact in some cases was for the guild to break up. And that, although it was specific member actions that led to the break up, it was in fact the policy that led to those specific member actions in the first place. So it is the policy deserves out criticism - not each other and how lazy we are or how we 'chose the wrong guild'.

To say that this policy breaks apart only guilds that don't know how to work together and that they somehow deserve this is an oversimplistic fallacy - some guilds work together better than others, some include more people from the BSI side of the equation, some have more successfully embedded guild loyalty in their members despite human nature, some were already at the point of being mostly >60, and so the strain could be expected to be lower on those guilds, but are you really saying that any guild that has not achieved what I am sure you would agree is an unusual degree of loyalty and shared self interest deserves to be ripped apart, even if it is the fault of the people in the guild?

Oh and by the way, guilds identical to those ripped apart a year or 2 earlier were not subjected to this pressure and thanks to this survived long enough to be high enough level to get flags without any problems for everyone in the guild. And people from some these guilds, who never had to see themselves and their guild tested under this type of severe strain, are now the ones telling everybody else that they're just lazy or their guilds suck??

Geez, that's like blaming people in a plane wreck for choosing that particular flight! There is just no way to tell in advance how a guild will handle large stressors like this. You can do all the due diligence you want, but you'll only be able to identify the truly lame guilds, which need very little in the way of stress to break up anyway.

If that is your argument, I understand it, but I disagree since I think that again we're back to the 'E' word - by definition. Not everybody in the guilds that the flag policy caused problems for 'deserved' what they got. And not everybody in the guilds that all got flags for one reason or another 'deserved' that either.

The point is the current flag policy imposes conditions under which guilds will tend to stress and break - by promising rewards to higher end players who look out for their own self interest at the expense of others. And so the outcome is predictable. And so changing it rewards the game as a whole, at the admitted expense of the narrow self interest of the me-and-my-friends crowd.

Blame human nature if you like - you are right that it is at the heart of it all. But I don't think this thread is gonna do much to change that, and it's a little like blaming God, or fate or some random force for creating humans with all their faults, because if it weren't for these damned humans, everything would be ever so much more pleasant.

[Spinetwist]

The guild I was in during the time of Flagging was pretty good. We all worked together to get everyone flagged.

It all depends on the guild really, so you cant base an arguement on one or two guilds who failed to get flagged.

[Crist0]

I'm sorry, seru loot instead of ssra..your gear and your year and a half of play time(as you said) just don't mesh well spinetwist.

This is why I used you as an example of people who don't have half the time invested(maybe not even a third of it) complaining about all the "work" they did in comparison to others.

I've been playing warriors(yes, I have more than one) for about 4 years now. I did the tiresome grind up, I've done the bashing your head against the wall to learn encounters from kunark dragons through ssra and probably spent something over 100 hours helping guildmates and friends through poj trials alone. The only zone i out of that list i wouldn't have is hoh(and to be honest i've hit AD but the flagging npc was screwed).

It makes me absolutely sick to see these type of people talk about how "those of us who did the work for the flags" all hate the change. You're being petulant and childish, and you're trying to speak for everyone flagged. Stick to speaking for yourselves.

There was a post from PoN that summed my view up pretty nicely.


I (and several others) keep making the analogy to the hybrid experience penalty. How many of the people currently flagged for tier 2+ levelled from 1 to 60 without that penalty? How many did it with access to a 2k FBSS and a weapon with a ratio better than 0.5? Should those of us who had to level with an experience penalty, dying without even the hope of an experience rez, with hitpoints and AC equal to a ranger, without the 2handed damage bonus, etc. etc. look at THOSE people as noobs?

Should we have fought to keep the hybrid penalty in place because WE had to level with it? Should we fight against the introduction of spells like Ethereal Cleansing because WE didn't have those spells, so why should you? Should a person who did the Ro quests when they required blacksmithing and the spawns were exceedingly rare have fought to keep those changes from being made? Further, should someone who went through those things get some kind of reward for having "suffered" through them?

Part of EQ is that things get easier. There's a double edged sword - those who do something early will usually have the hardest time doing it. They don't have the equipment that later folks will have, they don't have access to information, etc. They also reap the greatest rewards - they get equipment to use and they get to sell things for outrageous prices when they are new. So they both benefit and they a harder time.

People who come later may have a much easier time, but the rewards are not as great. By the time I could fight in places where bronze armor dropped (medium sized, at least), bronze armor was vendor loot - yet people payed a lot of platinum for bronze armor when it first started appearing on the market. There's an inherent advantaged to getting somewhere first.

This is a good change for the majority of players. It is indeed going to be painful for some people to have competition in their hunting grounds, but the very idea that that competition somehow doesn't "deserve" to be there is ridiculous. Hell, people were upset when Panamah was gathering groups of casual players together to get flagged for the higher planes - they were "gimping" their way through by "zerging." It sure seems that for many people in that position, it IS elitism.


Bitch all you want about the crappy reward for the flags, but stop being so childish about opening up the zones

[Spinetwist]

WTF? So because I have played a year and a half I shouldnt have Seru loot? Yeah well my bowling ball can beat your chocolate milkshake with hello kitty power!

You can call me ebay and say blah blah blah I am elitist and garbage, it doesnt hurt my feelings and I know Im legit, as do others on the board obviously - but lets stick to valid discussions and arguements. And just because you have played EQ longer then anyone here it doesnt make you right, so the fact you have played longer is moot. You cant say someone who played for a year is less hard working then you at 4 years, how do you know this? You could have been inactive for months, maybe the person who played for a year is stranded on a desert island with nothing to do but play EQ. I mean who knows?

I think you are the one being elitist with all this "Ive been playing alot longer then you guys" crap.

[EmiliaEQ]

Openin more planes to normal players = GOOD

Letting normal players go on rampage in these planes = BAD

Gimp reward for the full flagging = BAD

Openin Tactics = BAD

Its a good patch. It just needs some tuning to be effective.

[proteg]

Couldn't agree more with you Crist0. Absolutely couldn't.

I have lost several groups in BoT because we couldn't find a slower, this while three of my Shaman friends couldn't get flagged for Tier 2 because Shamans have little use in the Trials. This all the while BoT was half empty.

There is plenty of room there. Yes there will be lots of trains there now and BoT will be packed to the hilt, but PoS has been wide open for the longest time. I wouldn't mind killing Giants there. BoT is going to be like Seb used to be, lots of ppl too low to gorup there LFG and packed to the hilt. So what? HoH, PoT, PoV, PoS should all have room.

If you got the flags and put in your time, you will be far ahead of anyone not flagged as far as levels and aa's, and maybe equipment too. When I pop into BoT and ooc Level 65 War LFG do you really think the Level 53 War LFG is going to take my spot in a group?

So they take that 65 War in Cobalt who gets dropped on the first pull after he can't hold aggro and the Chanter dies when slow is resisted. I am not worried.

[Spinetwist]

If I cant find a slower in BoT I dont take my ball and go home. I keep looking. And in the meantime I bust out the trusty Truncheon of Doom.

[proteg]

Spinetwist, when you argue that a person who has put 4 years into the game has not put more effort or time in then someone who played for a year you look pretty unreasonable.

Don't go on with that "You could have been inactive for months, maybe the person who played for a year is stranded on a desert island with nothing to do but play EQ" stuff. Let's try to keep this to the world of reason.

Looking down on you for only having put in a year or so is indeed "elitist", but you invite those comments when you say stuff that is unreasonable.

"lets stick to valid discussions and arguements"
Can't agree more. Arguing about play time is not what I woud have chosen as a valid discussion at this point tho.

[Spinetwist]

Scroll up. I was responding to accusations. What I was saying had nothing to do with the arguement.

[Crist0]

I'm not out to attack you personally spinetwist, but the fact is you are a great example of jonny came lately, to the point of looking very much like a bought character.

I simply hate to see those jonny's trying to talk about all the work they did(as if the unflagged people haven't done anything to deserve the zones).

As for the other, the fact is you(or someone else) would be calling me a noob if I hadn't given my playing experience. I brought it up to skip that inane argument before it got started- and I gotta chuckle at you calling me elitist.

-edit-

That's exactly what I'm talking about Proteg. Since semi-retiring my warrior out of the raiding guild i was in a few months ago over our screwing over in PoP, I've been playing my shaman a lot. I've seen firsthand the trouble that class has getting through the trials because of their defensive focus.

[Haass]

Shut up Crist0. You've contributed nothing to this discussion other than insults. I don't give a flying rats ass how long you've been playing, it doesn't mean crap to me.

A year and a half playing a game is plenty of time to learn how the game works, especially with 101 AA points. Just because you started 4 years ago gives you ZERO right to go waving your dick around here like it matters. It has nothing to do with this discussion, and neither do you. If you're not gonna contribute, kindly remove yourself, lest some of us make your life very difficult until the mods remove you.

[jaxxym]

Crist0 - I've had the same experience getting my shammy thru - virtually useless in exe. Currently considering trial of hanging as an alternative where a shammy+tank *may* be able to 'manage' the two side mobs while main group focuses on the Spirits. Sounds more promising than exe for shammy flag - dunno if it'll work yet but might be worth looking into....

[Spinetwist]

I cant believe I had to screenshot my played to prove you wrong but anyway. There it is Crist0.

Moving along Id like to hear what some pro good things about realeasing the flag system. I myself cant think of too many but maybe you guys in the thread can convince me of some good ones.

[Crist0]

Just because you don't like what I have to say you're threatening me now Haass? Grow up. Seriously.

My challenging elitist attitudes has nothing to do with personal attacks and this IS an important facet of the matter at hand.

People are running around talking about all of the time they have invested, when the reality is they DON'T have any monopoly on time or effort invested in their characters. If THAT is the leg YOU choose to stand on with the argument about people not deserving to be in these zones, you better be willing to discuss it.

-edit-
So either the character was sold/given to you 4-5 months after it was started, or you weren't accurate about playing a year and a half. As I said, it doesn't matter - you are still a good example of someone coming to the game late and expounding on the time and effort invested compared to others.

[Faeya]

The metaphors being used to describe this situation and debate it are not very useful. A better metaphor would be mountain climbing.

Those who climbed the mountain and put in all the effort to do so, should have a similar sense of accomplishement. However, stand around and whine because the park service installs a lift to bring up tourists is hilarious, and sounds more like those whiners are the ones wearing hearts and flowers.

I can't imagine a world champion mountain climber being a cry-baby about a lift being installed to the top of their favorite secluded climb. Most of the world's great climbs have back paths and lifts for tourists. Achieving the climb is great enough for them, they don't need to continue to stroke their ego's by fighting to exclude tourists. Now, those who fight it might be like a group of environmentalists, and that would be your hearts and flowers group. I put those crying about this change in that category.

The true explorers and achievers don't need to exclude the tourists in order to continue feeling good or stroke their own egos. The true explorers would be too busy moving on to the next great challenge.

Anyway, I earned all my flags and keys very rapidly, explored those zones, fought the bosses, and moved on. I don't really care about any tourists coming to zones I have already finished. Anything more yammer about this is a waste of time.

Fae, 43, FV
Kel, 65, Veeshan

[proteg]

Crist0, give it up man. Let the little boys have their little whine thread.

If the guy is so worked up over the whole thing that he posts a screenshot of his /played time the guy is nuts or a 14 year old kid. Let him be.

Spine, you are trying to look good or not look bad to who? Why in the world do you care what we think of you? I don't know you, I don't care to know you. You could be the best Warrior to even have played the game or the worst.

Unless you are in my specific group on my specific server I really don't give a rats ass if you are ebayed or not. No one else does either you just think they do. Right now Crist0 and whoever else posted here is prolly LFG in BoT or grouped trying to get a few more aa's or on a raid. I really don't think their brains are devoted to whether or not you are ebayed.

I am off to my little world of EQ now and I assure you as soon as I get on I am going to be thinking of what I want to do and not whether you or anyone else is ebayed.

Don't give us the credit of being able to think of two things at once.

[Haass]

It's not that I don't like what you're saying, it's that you're saying nothing.

Lets look at your first post.

You're an idiot if you think this is bad.

From there you make Ebay accusations, and then after that the most profound thing you had to say wasn't even posted by you.

I stand by my statement that you've brought nothing to this discussion.

[Spinetwist]

All in all the discussions and the arguing in the thread really are meaningless. True some good points were made but in the end we dont have any say in what happens in the game and Sony will do whatever they want. Change is in-evi-dable, and theres not much we can do about it but accept it.

Im still kinda upset since I did work hard on my flags as well as work on others flags but hey I will get over it. And who knows maybe Sony will surprize us and give us all something nice in return. Most likely nothing will given as a "prize" or whatever but who knows? This is Sony we are talking about. Did anyone honestly see this coming? Totally out of left field for me.

[Sturgis]

Just because you started 4 years ago gives you ZERO right to go waving your dick around here like it matters. It has nothing to do with this discussion, and neither do you. If you're not gonna contribute, kindly remove yourself, lest some of us make your life very difficult until the mods remove you.

And this contributed...what? Are you going to threaten to go over to his house and beat him up now?

[Gnomers]

I don't know if I speak for anyone else when I say that this nerf to the flagging system cheapen and degrades the experience of EQ. I am not flagged for any planes and I should be happy with this nerf but I am not. I am in a guild that doesn't do much we are a social guild and I am happy with that when I heard about this for the first time I was literally bummed out becuase I was looking forward to the process of getting flaged. I came to the realization that I will never see the zones that I really like to see such as Veeshan Peaks, Sleeper's Tomb, Elememtal Planes and Plane of time and I am fine of with that. I made one goal to myself that before I quit EQ or before I move on to EQ2 I will be flagged to POV, POS and even BOT that is all I wanted and if I accomplished these goals I would had felt that I accomplished something. Now since they made it trival to everyone what is the point of even playing anymore they took something that I will never experience eventhough alot of people say that it is a frustrating process but when it is over you feel that you deserve the right to be there and it makes all the hard work seem worth it just for the feeling of accomplishment that you get.

I really think this cheapens the whole experience of EQ.

[Superchum]

Why say stop the elite bashing in one sentence and then go on to bash people yourselves in the very next sentence?

Why say flags don't rip apart guilds when we've all seen guilds ripped apart by them?

Not every guild is YOUR guild.

Why compare PoJ trials and Grimror's quest to HS and Seb keys, when we've all seen people fail the trials some two dozen or more times, but never ONCE seen someone fail the SEB key quest more than once tops?

Why call unflagged people lazy and friendless, when you don't even know them?

Why complain that all this will do is open up Tactics to level 46 noobs looking to gimp the Rallos script, when 99.9% of the time the cockblocking and training and script blowing comes from level 65 idiots in RIVAL guilds who have a vendetta against YOU.

And since when did PoJ trials become the measuring stick of player skill? I've seen monks FD their way into a Valor/Storms flag. That takes a TON of freakin skill there.

I've seen flags offered up for sale on EBAY. That takes a ton of skill there.

I've seen level 50 twinks flagged. Oh yeah, they're skilled.

/sigh

So much drama. So many flames.

And the change hasn't even been CONFIRMED yet. And Smedley hasn't made his SPECIAL announcement yet.

Ah well continue with your arguing and ranting.

And hey, feel free to add some Wubao you suck, Wubao you're a moron, Wubao you can't read, type of shit in there if it will make you feel better.

I need a beer.

And maybe a pretzel.

[Redhenna]

/passes Wubao a beer.

/passes Wubao a pretzel too.

[Adzar]

Can this thread get flushed down the crapper now ? Truly disappointing

[Brutul]

Yep, this has gone far enough.