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View Full Version : Double Riposte and the Furious Discipline


Retnaburn
01-02-2004, 06:20 PM
Does the Double Riposte work when using Furious? Also, I read that you can't proc on a riposte, is this true?

Haladan
01-03-2004, 04:59 AM
Dont know about double riposte. But you cant proc on ripostes. I hit 40 times pr sec using furious and not a single proc using GSo4W. 1500 dps was a little fun for a short time, but the skels won in the end(failed one of the mobs on the caprin cycle).. Wish i had rampage there :D

Haladan
United Kingdoms
AB

Belwolf
01-03-2004, 06:09 AM
never seen a proc on a riposte BUT i am wondering about using furious with mighty strike. if it works SWEET if not i may get double riposte anyway to get a little off the beaten path everyone THINKS is the only way to do things:P

Retnaburn
01-03-2004, 10:32 AM
Can't use two discs at the same time unfortunately.

Dima
01-03-2004, 02:07 PM
Yeah, Double Riposte does indeed work with Furious.
Think it's a 80% chance to double riposte at full AA.
No procs on ripostes. that would be just pure own =p

Gront
01-05-2004, 06:15 AM
Interesting. Most people seem to scorn Double Riposte as a discipline (myself, historically, included). However, it seems that the new standard for raid tanking is now engage, Provoke, Furious, Defensive/Evasive. If Double Riposte works with Furious, it seems that it will actually add a noticeable amount of aggro in the default raid tanking situation.

So. Is it time to reevaluate the virtues of Double Riposte for serious raid tank warriors?

Thanks,

Gront Warrior 65
Graa Beastlord 65
Kheysa Meatus
Ayonae Ro

Belwolf
01-05-2004, 09:17 AM
DOH Retnaburn is right, oh well. i got Ferocity and TM with PB and want to get DR next. i've seen a boost in dps and better agro with my 2hs with the AA i have gotten and think DR will compliment the ones i already have.


i plan to try it out when i get it, not that i PLAN to need it but soloing for cash and a little AA means adds sometimes lol.

Khumak
01-05-2004, 11:43 AM
IMO Double Riposte is a waste of points but I have nothing else to spend my points on so I picked it up. Didn't notice any measurable DPS increase.

Callon
01-05-2004, 01:08 PM
if it works SWEET if not i may get double riposte anyway to get a little off the beaten path everyone THINKS is the only way to do things:P

The thing with conventional wisdom is that while occasionally wrong, it's usually right. People don't take double riposte until they have tons of other AAs and don't know what else to spend points on for a very simple reason. It sucks. No, really. It sucks. It's definitely something you can parse and determine exactly how much bang for your buck you're getting and people have found that the dps boost is very minimal. Maxing double riposte to get that 80% doubles mentioned above takes a hell of a lot of AAs. (3/6/9 at luclin class level and I forget how much for PoP levels).

And you riposte what... 4% of the time? I'll have to check my old logs. It's easy to measure. If I estimate 5% attacks riposted just to make the math easier, then 80% of that is 4%. Those are mob swings so if the mob is slowed, it won't be getting many swings. Let's say that overall it's getting half as many swings as you are with your big ol' 2 hander and haste. We're down to a 2% dps improvement on a slowed mob with maxed out double riposte skill.

Parse your % of ripostes compared to your total hits though and get a more accurate number then my guesstimate. Then do the math. I'm sure it will still suck.

FulorianC
01-05-2004, 01:19 PM
Furious is a waste of endurance, and if you really want that extra bit of agro so bad, it'll be worth the 5 or more incites you'll be able to squeeze in for not hitting Furious..

Khumak
01-05-2004, 02:48 PM
Furious isn't there for generating aggro, it's there for those nasty pulls where you need 12 seconds of badassness while the CC gets stuff mezzed. Or for the beginning of boss fights before it's slowed...

Gront
01-05-2004, 03:44 PM
But since you're going to be using Furious on most if not all boss fights (while waiting for the slow and the establishment of the CHeal chain), and since the aggro from ripostes during Furious is non-zero, doesn't it make sense to get Double Riposte to make that aggro as good as possible?

I mean, assuming your goal is to make yourself as optimal as possible for your core purpose, which is tanking raid mobs.

Gront Warrior 65
Graa Beastlord 65
Kheysa Meatus
Ayonae Ro

Varalla
01-05-2004, 07:22 PM
And you riposte what... 4% of the time?

100% of the time with Disc furious.
Disc Furious may be a waste of endurance to ye, but to me it is a crucial disc on use and open with on every raid level mob.

Either to survive the initial contact before slow lands, or tank switching.

Vikos
01-06-2004, 02:18 AM
If multiple hard hitting adds get to the raid and are hitting on the healers, you can AE Taunt and use furious to keep yourself up without heals for 12 seconds while the CC puts those mobs under control.

Furious helps a lot when MT drops and you have to take over. It takes the clerics a couple of seconds before they know who to heal next.

Furious/Fortitude have been quite useful since they got unlinked from defensive/evasive.

Remf da Troll
01-06-2004, 12:54 PM
/agree... AE taunt + furious = great for switching, "oops" pulls, etc. Might actually get DR now that I actually USE furious regularly...

RdT.

Carene
01-06-2004, 04:00 PM
I'm sure I've seen a proc on riposte before. Hard to tell during combat, but have had a mob hit me and a proc go off before autoattack was hit. No one else has seen that happen?

Varalla
01-06-2004, 05:18 PM
A riposte yes, Furious disc riposte, no unfortunatly :(

slantedvision
01-07-2004, 10:01 AM
Using riposte over evasive/defensive would be great for those boss mobs during that time where a mob needs to be slowed, the lack of proccing ability might make it a little more sketchy in the face of healing/slowing/tashing/whatever aggro, however, and I agree that the huge endurance would be a thing to consider. I've done boss mobs however, using offensive, defensive, as well as Incite without running out of Endurance. Come close but never completely run out.

ShaikYerbooty
01-07-2004, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by Callon
The thing with conventional wisdom is that while occasionally wrong, it's usually right.

On this I profoundly disagree. Common wisdom is sometimes right, sometimes wrong, but unfortunately always followed by the vast majority as gospel.

"Common Wisdom" supresses innovation, because instead of experimenting and thinking outside the box, people just fall in line and go with the herd.

Right over the cliff, a lot of the time.

Try new things, don't allow yourself to be molded by "common wisdom", see what really works on your own. Follow your instincts.

In the times when "common wisdom" is right, you'll be doing the right thing anyway. When it's wrong, you'll be the genius.

unclebong
01-07-2004, 10:52 AM
double riposte works under furious. did it last night in fungus grove with my Earthshaker. Yea, it wasnt all that great but was kinda nice to see 400 dmg instead of 200 dmg dealt to the mob.

I guess some folks think double riposte is crap. I dig it! Even with the low occurance of riposte, my thinking is that it only makes that low occurance better. Now with the new disc system its a bit more useful. I'll be REAL interested to see if the upcoming opening system will have moves based off of riposte ala DAoC. But even w/o all that, I'll take an extra chance to do dmg anyway I can get it. I like 2 handers for dmg, so that extra 200dmg hit with my GS4W is noticable. Plus, DR2 gave me my class title. Yea, im a vain bitch like that lol

Rueeliar
01-08-2004, 06:45 PM
DR is a semi-decent DPS/aggro boost on mobs that cannot be slowed and triple or quad.

It's god-awful overpriced, though, at 27 points to max with Flash of Steel.

evilsofa
01-10-2004, 12:27 AM
The only line of info Lucy has for Furious Discipline is:

1: Increase Chance to Riposte by 10000%

For Healing Will Discipline, Lucy shows us

2: Make Fragile
6: Increase Hitpoints by 100 per tick

I can't remember exactly what Make Fragile is but I'm sure you do not want to be hit during that discipline. Something I would not have known otherwise.

For Defensive Discipline, Lucy shows us

1: Increase Melee Mitigation by 45%
2: Decrease Damage Modifier by 55%
3: Chance to Critical Hit(0)

Again, I didn't ever know before that you can't get a critical hit while Defensive.

Since Lucy tells us about not being able to crit during defensive, I think she would tell us something like "3: Chance to proc(0)" for Furious if that were true. Since she does not, I presume the ONLY effect Furious has is to increase your chance to riposte to the maximum.

If you haven't met Lucy before now, you may visit her at
http://lucy.allakhazam.com/

I strongly suggest you look up all of your disciplines at Lucy. You will probably learn things you didn't know. Doing a spell search on "Discipline" will bring up all disciplines, warriors and others. Very nice reference.

Besrikarle
01-10-2004, 08:57 AM
Makes fragile means if you take any combat action, spells etc, or get hit, the effect automatically shuts off. Check out spiriut of scale: http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=1554&source=Live

Retnaburn
01-10-2004, 12:27 PM
I can get hit and casted on while either of the wills are in effect and it does not cease it. Been factioning FM gobs recently, having fun with the new discs. I'll pull all the gobs from the tunnel with my 2h out, hit furious and watch them drop. Often there is a DS caster in the bunch and I end up real low on hp afterward and not all the mobs die, so I just kite them around with healing will up to get to a safe buffer to finish them off getting beat and caster on sporadically.

Alisdahre
01-12-2004, 02:37 PM
For Healing Will Discipline, Lucy shows us

2: Make Fragile
6: Increase Hitpoints by 100 per tick

Did they change this recently? Or possibley was it bugged? When I used this disc the first day it went live, I was getting a whopping "3" hps per tick higher than what I usually get, not 100.

Guess I'll try it again tonight and see what happens. Has been a long time since I used it.

Sassinak
01-12-2004, 05:13 PM
You must have used the level 20 version instead. The lower level one indeed does about 3 per tick.

Smohg
01-12-2004, 05:19 PM
I've used healing willing while running throw aggroed mobs - I got hit but the discipline didnt fade. I turned on attack though and that was it. Using a casting item also turned it off I think.

Kaesorn
01-12-2004, 11:43 PM
Fragile means if you do anything, and by anything I mean attack or cast a spell (this includes right-clickables), it disappears. The effect that's been said before about being hit or cast on means that effect has a rune component, which means once the rune is finished, the other effects drop also (see Manaskin (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=1609&source=Live))

Aielman
01-13-2004, 11:57 AM
Try using furious and switching in a Weighted Axe (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=3579).

132 damage bonus at lvl 65. Now throw in double riposte. Now throw on flash of steel, and you're doing a double riposte around 80% of the time you riposte, which I find to be about 5% of the time I get hit.

Now remember the muliplier of furious....x10000. Been my experience that you double riposte about 80% of the time during the duration of furious.

Lots of damage. One of these days I'll actually parse it.

I use it damn near every time it's available in xp groups, and I use it on every boss on a raid we corner tank if I MT from the start. Since we corner tank everything but Quarm, I'm using it just about ever time. Come next expansion we'll have endurance regen, and we'll start having items we have retrofit with a + to end. I'm having almost no troubles running out of end now, so I anticipate far less in the future.

peace,
Aielman

Gharghael
01-13-2004, 09:45 PM
Try using furious and switching in a Weighted Axe.
O.O I am so going to buy one of these in the bazaar for 5pp tonight. I've been using Sword of the Cryptkeeper as my furious weapon but the weighted axe is a great idea, thanks.

On a side note: I've noticed more than once while waiting for furious, I'll check it's timer and see that it has maybe a minute or less until it's available, then the button ungreys, I click it, and it then tells me I have to wait another 5 minutes or so... Anyone else experiencing this? Next time I'm on I think I'll time it with my watch to see if it's taking longer than 30minutes to pop, or if it's just telling me that it's ready prematurely. I pulled this giant swarm of grimlings in TM today, hit furious and - WTF - it was lying to me. Though they are greenies, that many of them nearly killed me lol. I got through a good chunk of them, then kited em around for a while and let healing will do it's thing, then killed the rest of them. Ironically enough, furious became available (for real) on the last mob =- |

Aielman
01-14-2004, 01:23 PM
There's also supposed to be another 150 delay weapon from ToV called Twisted Sword of the Fatesealer (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=6591) that would work equally well, but can be used by small races. I don't have any information if this is a real item, or how to get it if it is, and neither does Allakhazam or EQmaps.com, but perhaps someone here knows how to go about getting it.

132 damage bonus on a flurrying mob does a buttload of damage over that 10 seconds. I use it in adventures and can take a mob down by half or more in 10 seconds if the slower doesn't hit it right away. We recently had 6 rangers and then 6 monks from our guild take down Sont, each alone in one group per kill, and our warrior crew is thinking about trying our hand at it now as well using something like this.

peace,
Aielman

Alisdahre
01-15-2004, 06:47 AM
You must have used the level 20 version instead. The lower level one indeed does about 3 per tick.

Yup, my bad. Just bought 63 version last night.

landrain
01-15-2004, 07:17 AM
Since the changes Furious has easilly become my second most used discipline.

On tank switches, It is extremely valuable. the 12 duration means that as long as your clerics pay attention, they easilly can get the CHC retargeted from the now dead MT to you. there is now a 2-4 sec buffer on heals hitting before you start taking damage.

On Hard LDON's bad pulls on named, AoE Taunt + Furious followed by defensive/evasive has save the cleric/chanter many a time.

When MTing a mob, initial contact, I like using Furious and then go defensive/evasive.

Aielman
01-15-2004, 12:52 PM
Just to give you an idea of the type of damage we're talking about here using furious, one of our warriors popped off a furious with dr2 and using a BoW. He had a flurrying plane of time Tier 1 boss down to 85% after 12 seconds, all by his lonesome. And that's with a weapon that has 37 dmg bonus at lvl 65...not the 132 damage bonus of a 150 delay weapon.

that's not bad in my book. Looking forward to a warrior group takedown of an old world dragon using this technique soon.

peace,
Aielman