The REAL enemy

[Mystaviant]

Ok, its late, and I am lacking sleep, but here goes...

What is seriously wrong with eq today? Is it REALLY that some pally tanked an endgame boss?? No, I dont think it is. Not one of you would care if he did tank him, so long as after the raid, and everyone went /lfg to grind out an AA or two, and you got an exp group as easily or easier than he did. Warriors DO tank better, take hits better, and do better dps than knights as is...the REAL problem is getting exp groups.

How often is the DPS of any DPS class limited by the warrior's ability to hold aggro?? Almost never. How often is it a problem when a mob turns for a few seconds to the rogue before his evade works, or you taunt again?? Never. How often does a warrior loose aggro on a raid target? Not unless something was done wrong. How often does a warrior loose aggro to a healer, barring they dont do stupid things? Very rarely.

So whats the real problem? Snap-aggro. Its the catch-phrase of all the pally problems. Why? Does snap aggro keep the mob off the backstabbing rogue? No, his evade does that. Same for rangers, monks, wizards, etc. What does snap-aggro do?? ONE thing: KEEPS THE MOBS OFF THE SLOWER.

So now, lets futher that, does a 1300AC 3500hp shammy go splat from one round of melee?? NO...who does? The pussy chanter. Yanno, the skirt-wearer with a whopping 400AC and 1900hp. So who is the real enemy? Pallies? Nope, its the chanters.

The chanters are the ones dieing to a resisted slow.
The chanters are the ones whom 95% of the class exists soley to get to level 60 and become the next kei whore in pok.
The chanters are the ones that put max exp per hour in front of all else to futher the previous statement.
The chanters are the ones demanding the pally tank.

I have played now about 1/2 of all eq classes to 50+, and in doing so, learned everything I could about the class, its strengths, weakness, proper techniques for things, hints, tips, what not to do, etc. So, I think I know a little about eq by now, tho not much.

Whats one thing that NEVER happens in an exp grind group? Yea, thats right, you never see both a chanter and a shaman, at least not very often. Why? cause its redundant. What have two classes that bring little to the group that is duplicated by the other class, sure, chamans buff and sorta heal (2k is rather small for a "ch") and chanters can mez. Well, chanters can buff some and shaman can "mez" (75% slow = 75% mez, sorta, plus root), so even in the lack of the other, the group goes on fine, and 95% of the time, is BETTER without the other, becuase a more useful class fills in the spot, and doesnt duplicate another member.

Most exp groups are:
Tank
Healer
Slower
DPS
DPS
DPS

DPS = faster kills, and more exp

Why have a chanter when you have a shaman of vice versa when neither of the two are decent dps? You dont, unless you know for a fact that over-pulls will be often and massive.

So what would change things for the better??

My ideas:

Remove slow from chanters, and haste from shamans. Yes, I play a shaman, and if I didnt have haste, whee!! No more bugging me for haste 30 seconds after the "jobober feels faster" message (I use pet as timer on hastes, as do many many shaman. If chanters didnt have slow, no one would really bitch or whine about slow pulling aggro. Shammies dont care if slow pulls aggro, or at least shouldnt, tho some think they are chanters with a dog pet.

I like this one. It means there will be (perhaps gradual) tend towards warriors being a equally, and perhaps more viable exp tank, as it was. It also means chanters wont demand a pally, since casting haste pulls no aggro, and mez+root+boggle means mez wont get them killed either. Lastly, it means groups will want a shaman for slows, as it should be, and tank+rogue+ranger+monk will do the same or less dps that tank+rogue+ranger+chanter, since the chanter will be the only way they get haste, thus increasing their dps. (2 70% hasted melee do more dps than 3 unhasted)

I mean really, think about it. When did warrior become last choice as exp tank?? With PoP! Why? Cause EVERYTHING must be slowed...

Slow = Aggro
Chanter + Aggro = Rez
Shammy + Aggro = shammy casts topor/q on himself

It was PoP and the need to slow everthing that caused warriors grief. If chanters didnt have slow, no one would bitch about the slower having aggro for a second or two.

Lastly, a few more bitches about chanters sucking:
Got KEI a few days ago, after my mind expanded, I see "mezzum modulates" as the level 60 enchanter that just cast kei goes from 100% health to.....56%!!! Yes, 450 damage from a modrod caused him to lose 44% of his health...which put his unbuffed hp at about 1000....or about what it would be if he were human, put all his bonus points into stamina at creation and had NO hp+ items. Is this REALLY the class that should be casting a high aggro spell on every mob very early in every fight?? I dont think so.

Was in a group with a chanter and, sigh, a pally...which meant that I HAD to slow on inc, or he got reamed hard, and the mobs were resisting my slow, so I asked the chanter to tash on inc, so I could slow on inc...as if tash is gonna pull more aggro than my slow. Had we both did as I asked, the mobs would get tashed, and then slow would land, and if it went at anyone other than the gay pally, it would have been me, 100% of the time, rather than the chanter...but he refused, so I booted his lame ass wizzie wannabe butt outta the group, causing the cleric to leave, as they were friends I guess. Lame. The did spend a LONG time lfg tho, and we had no prob getting another cleric, and replaced the chanter with a bard, who would oos when pulling.



Whats the cast time on KEI?? Cause thats about how long I need a chanter in any of my groups....

Mezzum says ooc: 64 chanter lfg
You cleric tells you, get that chanter
Your tell cleric, sure
You invite Mezzum to join your group
Mezzum has joined the group
You tell your group, hey, my kei is kinda old, mind refreshing it plz?
Mezzum begins to cast a spell.
You mind expands.
You remove Mezzum from the group.
Mezzum says, wtf?
You say, thx
You invite Ubahwarrior to join your group.
Ubahwarrior has joined the group.
You tell your group, all set now, lets get killin!!!

LMAO, thats the way it should go.

Edited: cause spelling is hard.

[Kaesorn]

Making only two classes able to slow would screw the game up more than nerfing Knights back to Kunark. Three classes slow, Enchanters can get over 2k hp in runes, and unless there cleric is a total dumbass he'll buff the enchanter. Shamans ask for knights as well, you know. And I play a DPS class...my damage is certainly hurting because of lack of warrior agro. Staying FoM the entire time since I'll pull agro if I nuke/DoT in addition to my melee is bad.

We're trying to improve the situation, not nerf the game into more stupidity.

[Mystaviant]

chanters are by and large the main culprits demanding knights, with wussy barbarian shammies perhaps as a second, but a long second at that.

Arcane Rune is 1500hp, and means it takes 1 extra swing to kill the chanter. Mitigation and evasion are very different under a rune too, so its not quite like having an extra 1500hp either.

In the kunark days, groups got a shaman for buffs (and possibly slow) and got a chanter for haste and clarity and mez, not for slows under any circumstances, and having both was a good thing.


Lastly, BL are the ONLY dps class that lacks a way to shake aggro of any sort. They are the rangers of PoP era, and sooner or later, will get their own jolt line.

Other DPS classes simply slightly alter their play to compensate for warrior aggro, by using the aggro-reducers their class has been granted.

And the worst part is, that it seems that NO enchanters know how to slow a mob, and cast from friggin max range, then wonder why they died when the mob killed them before the warrior ever even got to them.

[Cily]

When I use my warrior to tank in groups you bet your ass my some of my group mates lose DPS.

Best example is our druid, who can pump out nice DPS with pally tanking, but with me tanking, has to be far more conservative.

(oh, druids have no agro reduction, and are a good DPS class with proper gear/AA and played well)

Cily

[Bunnie Burner]

The main problem is far from being just LFG...

To you, this game is all about that LFG tag?? If you get groups, your class is fine? That is horrible design.

Our problem is we're way too specialised, in a game that can no longer withhold this sort of specialisation.
And melees evolved WAY too slow.

While all casters got spells, focus, FT etc.. to evolve their way to the new expansions,
we got zilch, nada....
After 5 years, we still have the same skills as the kunark days, the same disciplines...
The only true way of fixing melees is a complete overhaul, fixing 1 or 2 skills, adding 1 or 2 skills won't ever be enough.

[Lidan]

SOE has given us Vengance to raise atk but other than that we havent gotten anything to improve us like the casters have

[Gnomers]

Seriously lay off the crack.

[Mokor Leadheaad]

chanters who go for +chr instead of +hp = suck

ive group with casters who have mor hp buffed then i do :( and then have their sef rune on top of that.

they cant mitigate for sheet though and still go down to fast.

most my argo props with chanters are the one who recast rune. we all know how much agro rune generates.

[Eoden]

Arcane rune generates sweet f.a. agro. With Virtue my chanter who is in gimp bazaar gear sits at over 3khps and has plenty of time to get a boggle off if I draw agro from a slow.

I will admit there were a few times levelling up in PoV where I'd join a group and cringe when I saw a 62 warrior wielding a SBoZ and a short blade of lightning, but that just requires a change in play style for me, other enchanters may deal with it differently.

The first post here looks to me like a shaman who has maybe lost a few spots in groups to chanters, cos when you look at the 3 rolls that the enc/shm/bst/brd perform in a group of slows, hastes and CC an enchanter is best at 2 of them and 2nd in the 3rd, add KEI/VoQ to this + a DC pet for DPS and I know which I prefer to take in my group. /tell guild_shaman_01 "come focus meh"

Also I am alot more frustrated at the end of the night when my guild has used a knight to tank for trash clearing and then a knight to tank 50% of the named than I am when I can't get a group. I can handle being a specialist tank and having knights tank for clearing and knights tank adds and having a few encounters geared for knights to tank, but to sit on the sideline while they tank most of the named we kill in a night makes me wonder why equip your warriors at all.

Ok, its late, and I am lacking sleep, but here goes...
And whats this? a disclaimer of bad post inc? If you are tired then write your post in note pad, save it, proof read it in the morning before posting. If you know you're judgement is suffering from lack of sleep then ffs get off the MBs and get some sleep and post in the morning. Maybe then we won't have so much BS posted on the boards.

[Viladdar]

Mmmm Myst that's strange that you say :

Whats one thing that NEVER happens in an exp grind group? Yea, thats right, you never see both a chanter and a shaman, at least not very often. Why? cause its redundant. What have two classes that bring little to the group that is duplicated by the other class, sure, chamans buff and sorta heal (2k is rather small for a "ch") and chanters can mez. Well, chanters can buff some and shaman can "mez" (75% slow = 75% mez, sorta, plus root), so even in the lack of the other, the group goes on fine, and 95% of the time, is BETTER without the other, becuase a more useful class fills in the spot, and doesnt duplicate another member.

I'm not uber. But i found that statement funny. I am mostly grouping in LDoN, and, because I am a warrior, I have to make my own groups if I want to have a group. So my typical group setup is :

- me, warrior
- cleric (or druid, druid even better sometimes)
- shaman (for slowing... always a shaman)
- ranger (for DPS and snaring and track and occasional root)
- another DPS (wiz, mage, bst, rogue...)
- enchanter OR bard (for pulling / mezzing / mana regen and hasting)

This setup is not the best DPS setup you can find but it has the advantage of being safe and able to face the most desperate situations in theory. Plus, on the simple basis that I group with random people, I never know if one of my groupmates is an ebayer, a moron, both of them or just a fast levelled toon who never exped in a dungeon before we actually start fighting (and at this point it is already too late hehehe). So I have to prevent this possibility when I make my group. I had a good balanced group once in Takish, full of 65 except myself, that managed to wipe twice and kill the glorious amount of 7, yes seven MOBs in one hour. You never know what can happen with pick-ups.

I see 4 core roles for a successful LDoN adventure :

- tanking
- healing
- slowing
- pulling / CC

In theory, the enchanter is truely not needed and could be easily replaced by a 3d DPS. But that's just in theory and with good players with good gear. The reality is a bit different, and the presence of the enchanter, especially if he is a good one, adds a lot. With the enchanter, shaman can put some extra DoTs, he doesnt have to haste nor do RM, cleric (or druid) can nuke from time to time, wiz / mage can nuke actually noticeably more and enchanter takes care of mezzing, what prevents the others to waste med time and mana on roots. If enchanter is good, he will take care of pulling so while you kill mob #1, mob #2 is already in camp, cooked with little fried potatoes (IE mezzed, tashed, slowed and rooted, and perhaps even mem blurred). From my non-uber point of view, having a shaman and an enchanter never hurts. If I have to choose between shaman and enchanter, I'd of course take the shaman cause he can buff and, most important, can eat some hits without being transformed in red jam. Plus, because I'm a warrior, everyone knows that holding and stealing aggro is not the best thing I'm at.

This CC / pulling role is even better filled by a good bard from my point of view, bards aggro less than enchanters by far and since they can wear plate they are much tougher too. But when no bards are available, I usually take the first interested enchanter.

In fact I never group in the planes, perhaps those places allow a more flexible group setup, since all the mana users can (and should) grab a C3 without having to group the C3er. But honestly, I hardly see how the presence of an enchanter can be a burden, even if you have a shaman already. The extra mana regen from the ench lets the shaman do some DPS anyway, and adds more safety... Would it be THAT much worthy to replace the ench with a DPS class, at the cost of a higher wipe out risk ? I'm dubitative. But your point of view is interesting, Mystaviant :)

[Ceris]

Mystaviant,

Your enthusiasm is apparent, but unfortunately misguided.

I think your view of relative class power and roles will change as you level.

Presuming you're still 58th level, you won't have decent AA skills, you won't have Malo, and you won't have Qui. You're also still using Celerity, which wears off the first melee in the group by the time you've finished buffing the last.

At 65th level with SCRM, some healing AAs and a full spellbook, you will make an excellent group healer and the small inconvenience of recasting haste every hour or so will be something you don't even notice. You also won't be asking the enchanter to tash on inc.

You are correct in your assumption that a group with a shaman and an enchanter in it has a wasted spot. That spot would, in fact, be the cleric.

[Sylas]

Lastly, BL are the ONLY dps class that lacks a way to shake aggro of any sort. They are the rangers of PoP era, and sooner or later, will get their own jolt line.

I play a BL and I disagree. I hope we never get any sort of Jolt. Depending on what stage we are in the game, 50% to 33% of our total DPS is completely aggro free (pet), that alone is far greater than any aggro reducer other than Fading Memories or a complete mem blur/FD. Slow + Jolt + Pet = overpowered, besides, with the right gear and AA's, we already are threatening knights for the MT spot.

[Kilaara]

Sorry but a 60 + chanter with unbuffed 1 k hp is a moron.

[Anker steadfast]

I have seen both Enchanters and Shamans getting one rounded - Grats on silly post.