Latest AbsorEQ post on TNZ...

[Stommper]

Absor made an appearance on The Newbie Zone board yesterday, and had this response to a posters list of questions...includes some "class unbalance" issues, which I have bolded for emphasis. The full original post is here

http://boards.station.sony.com/ubb/everquest/Forum4/HTML/052250.html

Let me try to respond to the original post.

quote:
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1. I have a hard time believing that newbies are petitioning and demanding refunds for EQ because they don't have a bag when they start. That isn't the stuff that's making people quit EQ. The stuff that's frustrating those of us who have been playing for years is, for example, something that happened to me last night.
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Really? Maybe, and maybe not. But you can't speak definitively on that matter. But adding these things for new players is completely unrelated to what appear to be your real concerns. So let's get to those.


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I took a group of friends to do the backdoor quest for PoTactics key in PoStorms. When we got there we already knew we were going to have to use our tracker to run around PoStorms and aggro the place holders out of the walls that they were stuck in due to pathing bugs. We knew this because it's been an issue for what....around 6 months now? Ever since Sony "fixed" pathing.
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Well, that may be. Again, I don't know if you've reported this, or if anyone has. Remember, to fix these things we need very specific examples so that we can reproduce them, NPC names, locs for where they get stuck and all that. If you don't feel you are getting a fast enough response from your bugs, please send stuff to me at the Dev Corner and I'll pass them on (assuming you include details).


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So my question to Sony is: Why can't you fix this issue? How hard is it, and how much coding time does it take, to fix a pathing issue that is affecting anyone who tries to do this quest? (And it is a very common quest, it's not like it only affects a few people here and there). And why can't you fix all the other bugs like...
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Well, it could require a lot of fixing, or it could be simple. That depends on why there is a problem. It's pretty rare that such a thing can be fixed with a snap of my fingers. And, well, it's not a "very common" quest. If there's a problem, we'd certainly love to fix it. But please don't think that just because an issue affects you that it is super common and it is inconveniencing a huge number of people.


quote:
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2. Saryrn (sp?) encounter crashing if you push her the wrong way. It crashes Plane of Torment and you have to wait for her to respawn before attempting a 4-5 hour clearing / encounter again (I believe the respawn time is 3 days). This has been an issue since PoP came out. How hard is it to fix?
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Actually, probably very hard to fix. But to get started working on it, we'll need details. What /loc is this happening at? Describe what "the wrong way" is.

Again, if you're not content with sending in bugs, send stuff to me and I'll send them on.


quote:
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…, but how about if we look at some real issues now?
Such as...

3. Melee / Caster balancing. I recall reading some kind of message about this being done in September or something like that. I'm seeing nothing on it.


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Your points 3 and 4 are, essentially, the same. We are looking into this. I can't say this enough, but there is no simple solution to the balance issues you bring up. It takes time to address issues like this.


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I'm not going to get into the points system here, although that could use a definite revamp. Bringing up aggro was just one small part of class balance (and, Absor, they ARE unbalanced). What I'm talking about are the continual small little fixes and toss-ins to the game, such as anger augments for warriors, that are introduced instead of looking at real issues.
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We will have to disagree on the amount of "unbalance". But we are not tossing in little fixes. Augments were not any sort of minor fix for anything. They were exactly what they were, and idea for adding cool new stuff for an expansion. They were not any sort of attempt to balance anything. I've said this before (and been called names for saying it…), expansions are NOT a tool for balancing a game. They certainly need to be balanced, and they can certainly create some unbalance, but they are not used as tools to balance the game.


quote:
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OK, this has been a long post, and I'll make my conclusion now.
These were just a very, very few small bugs and inbalances affecting the high-end game. They were just examples of things that have been months, and in some cases years overlooked by Sony. The players who have devoted the hundreds and thousands of hours of play time to get to PoTime must feel really rewarded then they continually crash from phase to phase, or when they die, etc. Newbies having bags will really help solve their frustration I'm sure.


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It just bothers me that there is some sort of assumption that the addition of bags for newbies precludes work on crash bugs or game balance. It irks me that people think that we don't have 50 people on this team, and that not all of them can work on melee balance at the same time.


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Sony is in the very real position of having ONLY the casual players left, the ones who come and go, when the first MMORPG that can offer some real competition to Everquest comes out.
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I disagree. I have no doubt that many of the new games will be great. And if they are better than us, more power to them. But I've been involved in this game for something like 5 year, as a beta tester, player and employee. And I've seen a few thousand people post "when the next good MMORPG comes out…" We understand that there is competition out there. We love it, we play these games too. A lot of us are looking forward to the new games.

But we're not slacking off on EQ. Certainly at times for certain people something will be broken for too damn long. I've been there myself. But we have to prioritize these things and do them as we can. Yes, we could have barfed out a quick solution to melee balance, but we chose to take our time on it. Certainly we could have fixed that Saryrn bug by now, I'm not sure why we haven't. But that doesn't mean that we haven't fixed a few hundred other bugs in the meantime, bugs that were just as annoying to the folks that were encountering them.


quote:
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Either way, thanks for letting me speak my piece.
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Any time. We like that people are passionate about the game, even if they're upset. It means that at the very least they are interested in it.

Thanks for playing. Hopefully we can keep you as a player in the future.

A

[Valeris]

They were exactly what they were, and idea for adding cool new stuff for an expansion. They were not any sort of attempt to balance anything.

One could be facetious, read that thread a different way and conclude that this modus operandi might be one reason the game is as ballsed up as it is.

[Stommper]

More, even as we speak...

Absor responding to the question of "when" we'll hear about any details pertaining to melee balancing, with actual post here

http://boards.station.sony.com/ubb/everquest/Forum4/HTML/052445.html


We're workin' on it. Best I can say right now is that we may have some detail for you at the end of the month.
A

[Kamce]

We understand that there is competition out there. We love it, we play these games too. A lot of us are looking forward to the new games.

This statement alone explains why the developers have no clue as to what is wrong with EQ. They don't play EQ; they play all the other games. I guess we should play those other games too.

[Aveen]

MEH, you beat me to it.

[Tharak]

I'll be impressed when Absor comes over to TSW and posts that . . . . . .

I'd be more impressed if at the end of the month something was addressed and not just talked about. Something will be addressed i can assure you, you can;t rape an end game target with a paly MT and not get noticed; however i bet the melee balance is going to go like this:

____________
** We are limiting the usefulness of BoV because it was making some end game content to trivial

** We will be looking into melee balance further down the road . . it is a very complicated issue
____________

meaning they messed the game up so bad, even the developers are not sure if they can fix it now . . . .

[AbsorEQ]

I'll be impressed when Absor comes over to TSW and posts that . . . . . .

I was going to, but someone beat me to it.

A

[Tharak]

Originally posted by AbsorEQ
I was going to, but someone beat me to it.

A

Doh,

I stand corrected . . . . . .

care to comment on the 2nd half of my post . . .
I know the developers have a hard road to hoe, but are we going to see anything of significance? BoV is bound to be nerfed to some degree, i cannot see anyway around that at all. I can understand how class balance looks different from a developers point of view, but what i don;t see is how come from level 60 - 65 I basically got a few more hitpoints the same as all the hybrid's and nothing else. Melee's have been shafted during PoP as far as abilities, disciplines, and itemization (er knightimization now). Please tell me you are going to have something for me. Tell me it's not another discipline that i can;t use because i have to save /defensive or another one with a 60 min reuse timer. Absor, just tell me something meaningful is going to be done . . . .

[Valeris]

So, you were given an official snippet of information and were asked to convey it to the warrior community? Do tell.

If not then i'm not sure how you were 'beaten to it'.

[Wyloc Wormwood]

still no news then Ab? no phone call? no this is the way were working on it? these are the things were trying to code in?

whats the point in Pure melee (warriors mostly) being "pure melee" when utility out the ass casting classes can do things beter?
come on man you know theres a big problem, the devs were "Embarrassed" at fan fair, and still "its being looked at"?

we need more info than a cut n paste which is now a standing joke in Future plans. it aint gonna go away, the players may but the problem wont.

[Shikarii]

take a picture; that's the last you'll see of absor and this thread together

[Wilhelmm_Lanys]

Abs, if you are already set on never fixing warriors, just fucking tell us so we can move on. All this leading and teasing and "we're working on it," come on, who are you kidding. It took you several days to fix issues with plane of time when it came out. You've been baiting us with this "we're working on it" bullshit for 7 months. You can't possibly tell us that after 7 months, you guys didn't figure something out, seeing as how there have been plenty of ideas posted on these boards alone.

For once, just be fucking honest with us and say "we're not gonna fix warriors" so we can just move on and either create new characters, or in most cases, cancel accounts. After 2 years of taking it so far up the ass you don't even need to bother with lube anymore, you at least owe us the decency of an honest response.

[Aveen]

Actually its been 10. Check the January 27, 2003 post on the dev corner.

[AbsorEQ]

I don't have any solid info to give you. Later this month I hope to have some real, solid info to talk about. I'm just not going to speculate until we work some things out. That would only make things worse.

A

[Aveen]

You could start by telling us more of the sort of timeline you guys are working with. We know this will take some time. But will we start to see even small changes before the new year? Before the next expansion? As part of the next expansion?

Communication, even if you later have to back track some, or even if its to stop by once a week and ask a question of us shows that we aren't being ignored.

Good start. Keep it up.

[Battleblade]

While you may not particularly care to hear this -

Thank you for posting.

My discussion of class balance issues has been driven by my concern about what I believe to be inadequate Warrior aggro abilities and most recently a very narrow survivability advantage. Both of these issues are directly related to a Warrior's ability to tank and our enjoyment of EverQuest.

I have in fact been concerned that SoE was either unaware or was not intending to address Warrior issues.

Hopefully the Warrior community will be patient and accept your assurance that something is being done.

BB

[Superchum]

"I don't have any solid info to give you."

I already knew that. It's been months on end with no solid info, from anyone.

Remember, classes aren't that out of balance.

:P

"Later this month I hope to have some real, solid info to talk about."

Not a whole lot left to talk about.

Visit Arch Overseer's website, and see how not out of balance things are.

That's the game being played. No mathematical models. No theories. No 18 hours of parsing DPS on a red conning mob. That's the game in action.

"I'm just not going to speculate until we work some things out. That would only make things worse."

Not gonna get much worse from here on out Alan.

There's a lot of disgruntled, frustrated warriors and monks.

Why? Because neither feel like they have a ROLE left in everquest.

Speculate all you want. But when monks and warriors log in, hope ... info ... speculation ... it's not there. Just a feeling of disenfranchisement.

It's pretty close to being unfixable.

In fact, I don't envy you guys right now.

There's a problem and the solution is going to suck. People are going to be pissed no matter what you do.

Nerf vie, piss people off.

Nerf a class, piss people off.

Try and fix the melee classes, and do a bad job of it because you refuse to actually discuss the game with those classes ... and piss people off.

Odds are ... you're going to piss people off.

Good luck.

[Shikarii]

Yeah; All I can say it I hope things work out for the best of everyone.

So far you got a lot of people who have invested 4 years into a game with their fingers poised over their "delete account" keys.

Either that or expect an influx of Beastlords :D

[Kaesorn]

Originally posted by Shikarii
Either that or expect an influx of Beastlords :D
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

:D

[AbsorEQ]

I know this is frustrating for you. It's frustrating for all of us.

But I don't think people will be pissed off with the solution. We'll be testing all of this quite a bit, so you'll have your chance to see it and give feedback before we put it live.

A

edited - cause spelling is hard

[Shikarii]

Frustrating is an understatement.. :D I don't even think there is a word applicable to replace it in that sentence.

Oh yeah, and thanks too for coming by.

[Wyloc Wormwood]

have chance to test it eh?
ok that sound more promising, really mate it would of saved everyone so much ranting with a bit more PR. so can you give an example? or a Date that will back us off till we can try the upgrades on Test? a month? two? just before WoW?

[Darkoan]

Absor, I'm sure you know we are planning a sit in/stand down whatever you want to call it. Would you mind responding on that thread? There is alot of anger and frustration here, if you truly have something in the works for us, then we should probably not stage our protest.

Please respond,

Here's the thread:
http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4109

[taenk]

Absor, If you're still with us, I think you can feel what's going on. This thing is coming to a head, and if you have something to say it needs to happen now. I have to believe that SoE has a short list of ideas for fixing melee balance, and you need to get authorization from SoE to let us know what it (they) are. If there isn't a definitive answer, fine, but at this point we really must have some answers or things will get ugly. Admittedly, there is a limit to what this community can do, but we WILL be heard, and at the very least SoE will have a public relations mess on their hands.

I hate so much to make this sound like a threat, but we've run out of options.

Address this issue now, or this community will start dumping the tea in the harbor.

[AbsorEQ]

Sorry Darkoan, but I'm certainly not going to encourage behaviour that is disruptive to the gameplay of other players by responding to or about any sit in, except to say that I don't like it when people disrupt the play of others like that.

A

[czai]

we have to prioritize these things

Yeah, and your priorities are seriously messed up.

You got any idea how close I am to cancelling my 2 accounts? Diablo 2 1.10 has been more fun than logging onto EQ these past few days.

Answer for us at the end of the month? All you're going to tell us is that classes really aren't that out of balance and that "we're still thinking about planning to consider potentially maybe taking a look at improving the damage capabilities of melee classes."

Care to refute that?

[Darkoan]

Absor, by simply responding here, and hopefully on the Stand Down thread, you can call off the sit-in. The entire purpose of the sit-in was to call attention to our problem. We have seen little to no advancement since Kunark. We've watched our tanking superiority degrade into the non-existence that exists today. We sit day, after day, LFG, nobody has wanted us in exp groups for a long time now, and now our Raid role is being destroyed. We are at our wits end!

Encourage our spirits and discourage the sit-in by giving us something, just admit that there is a problem, give us an idea of when and how the fix will be coming, that is all you have to do! You are the communication representative, we beg you to communicate with us. We are pleading!

[Upem]

Well I do have to agree with my fellow warriors on that topic that it is long over due for a change with some of the problems in the game. Thankfully the newest stuff that came out was able to be turned off right away, not because it isnt useful at all, but just not my style and doesnt work well with my UI file. Putting in new stuff for the newbies? cool I have no reason to start a new character until I see plane of time myself. So personally let them have the stuff I didnt when I started and hopefully not have the learning curve be so steep as it was for me starting out. New features being added such as a possible new graphics engine and such I personally think is prep work for EQ2 to be somewhat compatible with EQ from what I have read about folks owning both games and being able to interact with themselves in the game. Great put that stuff in there also, again I have no plans of buying EQ2 until I can get somewhere in EQ itself.

I would be delighted if we found out some hard core news on some kind of fixes for the melee classes to correct some issues for aggro management and taunt effectiveness.

Lastly I would like to raise a glass to you (/toast) I really dont know how you deal with this day in a day out on some of the message boards to be honest but thanks for taking your time to respond to the message boards and try and answer some of our questions ( no matter how much it ticks others off with the lack of answers some times.) Thanks again for at least some form of time line and hope we hear some really good news from ya at the end of the month.

[Fitemore]

Is there any way some normal people can have a chance to beta test this at all? I'm sure we could find some advocates of the varying opinions on the balancing issues, from the pally, warrior, monk and other relevent communities to get their input. If there are to be changes, I'd really like them to be done right.

[taenk]

Geez I wish this wasn't so damn pathetic. I swear to god, the day I beg Absor the flunky to please please pay attention to me is the day I get my head examined.

I'm a loyal customer of your fucking company. Start treating me like one and give me some answers. The ONLY fucking reason I'm still here, like most people, is because of the time I have invested in my warrior. I own a business myself, and if I treated my customers this way I'd be out of business, and rightly so.

My plan: help the leaders of this community to make SoE understand the need to address melee issues. If this doesn't work in a reasonable amount of time (probably by the end of this month) then I am deleting my 2 accounts and am encouraging the rest of you to do the same. It's too humiliating to stick around.

[Peacedog67]

Originally posted by AbsorEQ
Sorry Darkoan, but I'm certainly not going to encourage behaviour that is disruptive to the gameplay of other players by responding to or about any sit in, except to say that I don't like it when people disrupt the play of others like that.

A

Hmmm...how do you like it when a corporation that sponsors a "game" seriously screws up a game, refuses to fix it because its "not that out of balance", then months later says "We should be starting on balance sometime soon, oh btw you may be seeing crap ingame about our next expansion, but we're looking into class balance".

The whole time raking in your cash. Don't know about you "A" but thats seriously "disrupted my play".

The guy politely asked you if you wanted to YOU could possible stop the disruption of play for many others just by reassuring some paying customers. But you had to respond like "OMGZ, if I even post then I'll be one of them!!1!". Let me clue you in on a fact "A", your employer has caused more "disruptions in play" than a thousand sit-ins. Drop the party line for a bit dude and just treat us like people instead of Sony Corporation dollar signs.

Oh btw, thanks for posting I guess. Lets see what did you actually post?

1. We'll have something for you in the near future. (Been there, heard that)

2. I will not lower my standards to respond to disgruntled paying customers. (like it takes a lot of morals to basicly put off paying customers for almost a year with 99% empty statements.)

What am I thanking you for again?

Ok, I'm sorry had to get that out of my system. So if your still reading this I will offer a solution. A perfectly viable one that will solve alot of the problems almost instantly. The only downside is that you, Absor, will have to exert some more effort than cutting and pasting.

1. Go to each pure melee board (Monks, Rogues, and Warriors in case you forgot) and post an intent for discussion.

2. Coordinate with the board moderators as far as organization of threads and modding.

3. Actively involve yourself in the ensuing discussions, asking questions like you had no idea what the problems are so that you can get detailed responses.

4. Compile the suggestions and submit to the Devs.

5. In case that you have moral objections to posting on some pure melee boards. Start and Moderate threads on the official Sony Forums.

6. Complete something, anything, in a reasonable timeline the whole time keeping the paying customer fully aware of developments and problems.


The above steps will positively insure that a lot of this bitching will stop. Not all mind you, but a large chunk of it. I've suggested this to you before (probably on Mobhunter) and it seems so ridiculously simple.

You do something like this and something like respect might return to the name Absor on class message boards. (Not counting the ass-kissing fest that is TNZ).

Peacedog AoxomoxoA
Retired Monk
Tunare Server
(with 2 months left on account that will be cancelled if something is not done before then)

[uhrlik]

I'd go for a round-table discussion. Especially since I seem to be one of the few championing the "Joe Average" non-uber, non-raiding warriors...

[Wilhelmm_Lanys]

Guys, don't turn this into a flame-war. Let's keep this civil. Stop the threats, and keep the discussion productive and positive rather than flamatory and contradictive. If this thread goes out of hand, devs leave, we remain pissed, and nothing happens. Maintain civility and we will make progress. We finally have Dev's visiting our boards, thats a good sign. At this point, that's a huge step in some direction, since it's something we havne't had in years. So, stay calm, don't make empty threats and promises of cancellation of accounts.

At this point, I believe a representative round table is really in order. Except it shouldn't include simply warriors, but all melees, and hybrids as well (because we dont' want to swing the pendulum of balance entirely in the other direction, that produces no over-all good). I'm thinking a representative discussion, featuring our most influential, calm and collective reps from both the hard-core and casual platforms, along with the same standard from any other represented class.


Most importantly, keep cool, keep civil, and let's present some solutions, not threats to quit.

[uhrlik]

I wholeheartedly agree.

[Battleblade]

A couple of months ago Absor said class balance was being looked into. He also said, "Classes are not that out of balance."

In our rebuttal, we noted that some of the LDoN zones had a very high proportion of undead which not only gave some classes an unfair advantage, but also tended to concentrate Clerics in those zones. Unfortunately while pointing out Warrior ranged aggro already existed, vendor recharging was mentioned (they knew this, but we perhaps jogged their memory).

SoE acted pretty quickly by changing some mob types and ending vendor recharging.

The only feedback we received about class balance was that maybe an improvement to some PoP weapons might occur.

The uproar following the Arch Overseers' Knight tanking demonstration was followed by a few posts from Absor. There are some changes in the works. He may be able to tell us more in three weeks.

My feeling is that some thought about class balance and melee improvements has been going on for quite some time. However these things were not concidered urgent. Now I believe they are.

I also think Knights tanking PoTime bosses forced some reconcideration of where Warriors really are in tankability and (I hope) how little justification there is for Warriors having sub-standard aggro abilities given the tanking abilities of non-Warriors.

If this is the case (and it's only a first order extrapolation), then IT is being worked on.

So why don't we concider that SoE has said, "Ummm, I guess classes are a little more imbalanced than we thought. Wow, that kinda snuck up on us. We'll get right on it.".

I'l be weilding my JBoW in a show of solidarity when not actually tanking for the next couple of weeks. But going beyond that just might actually be disruptive and I'm not supportive of that.

It's been 10 months (according to some eheh). I can deal with one more. Afterall, I only play 6 hours a day 5 days a week and 12 hours a day 2 days a week. That's only 200+ hours. Or maybe I could rent some movies :eek:

BB

[uhrlik]

Or see the light of day. :p

[KoGuiN]

Ok we went from...

"Classes are not that out of balance -AbsorEQ"

to ..

They certainly need to be balanced

At least they *know* they gotta balance classes..

[Kraydak]

Originally posted by AbsorEQ
I know this is frustrating for you. It's frustrating for all of us.

But I don't think people will be pissed off with the solution. We'll be testing all of this quite a bit, so you'll have your chance to see it and give feedback before we put it live.

A

edited - cause spelling is hard

Just so you know, Absor, it is no longer possible for anything to be done about this situation that does not piss people off. As I see it the only options are:

1) Redefine warriors and/or knights completely (pisses a lot of warriors and/or knights off).

2) Do nothing significant (pisses all the warriors off), the option I'm betting gets chosen.

3) Return the game to a state where warriors are needed to tank the highest level mobs (pisses a lot of the knights/monks/who knows what come 3 months off).

Statements like that show that you really do not understand the state of things. At all.

-Kraydak

[Daramin]

Pfft, so you want them to just give up and say "ok, we're going to piss some folks off" and post that on the boards? That's dumb, no company would do that. What it sounds like is that they're working on it. All I can say is, having anyone from Sony post on this board is already several steps past where we were. Three weeks isn't that far away when you think about how long the problems have been developing. You want a solution today? Well, sounds like they can't do that. So what are you going to do? Whine some more? Why should they listen?

Personally I'll wait and see what they have to say at the end of the month. I'll be honest and say that my warrior is pretty much shelved except for raids until something changes. The second I can switch to my Necromancer full time, I'm there, and the second WoW comes out and looks like more fun, I'm there too. Sony could change my mind about this, if they could make xp grouping as a warrior fun again.

Amidst all the hoopla about how much warriors suck in xp groups, that's really the only thing I care about. It's no fun feeling like you are the 3rd best at your role when you have no OTHER role to fall back on. To that degree I sympathize with monks completely. So, if there are concrete changes that are discussed/and or being tested at the end of the month, great. If it's more vague hand-waving, me and my 5 accounts may just decide the game isn't fun anymore.

[Trasak]

I would also agrea with the idea of a round table or a moderated cross board thread run by or a least frequented by Absor and or his staff if he has one. I posted a similar idea on "Monkly" a few weeks ago but due to the taboo involved with that board and the wantant flaming and constant agrivation it is not surprising we have not heard anything official. If possible Absor could you point to a place where you can open discusions with the monk community? I simply do not know where to go to speak with you in a timely and slightly more personal fasion than just the Dev Corner.

[Raamas]

It seems perhaps you do have at least a minimal amount of attention focused on the plight of the pure melee, alas it came too little too late for me, I left the game when I sat one too many evenings LFG when hybirds two or more levels lower gained groups to exp on the very mobs I desired to tank against, I decied the game wasn't fun anymore.
I pray it isn't too late for the rest of you.

Raamas ex-warrior of EQ

[Aldarion_Shard]

All I ask is dont flat out nerf BoV. Its actually a really interesting spell.

It just should have no effect when cast on someone who is not either the Cleric casting it, or a Warrior. Now theres a fix for the particular problem, leaving the spell as useful, and a warrior advantage all in one.

As for how 'complicated' the issue is.. a nerf is coming, and I think everyone whos looked into the issue really seriously knows it. I thinkk at this point its just a question of honesty and courage. The only workable solution isnt an easy one to have to sell. But its not exactly complicated... it just wont be popular.

[Ugok_EMarr]

Originally posted by Kraydak
Just so you know, Absor, it is no longer possible for anything to be done about this situation that does not piss people off.

Seems somewhat histrionic to proclaim failure before you even know what the solution will be.

I certainly want to see Warriors get some long overdue attention. Pointless rants however, add nothing to the discussion.

[Partha]

I don't consider it 'proclaiming failure' to point out what any semi intelligent type who plays this game knows.

Upgrade Warriors to counter the balance and watch everyone blow up over the boost.

Restore the balance by fixing all the classes (or even just one or two classes), and watch those classes and the gimps who depend on them to be able to play with no consequences blow up.

Do nothing and watch Warriors blow up.

Pick your door, ladies and gents, this could be the last chance.

[Frodlin7th]

Absor,

A couple things.

Thanks for stopping by and dropping word and even a potential date for some new info. I for one appreciate it, it indicates to me that you are both reading what's happenning as well as indicating that something really is being done.

It's pretty disheartening sometimes to see so little over so long such as the "future plans" updates, and to see that there's something thats' truly in the works and that there will even be comments on it in the forseeable future is exciting.

I'm glad you gritted your teeth and showed up and made a comment, perhaps in the future, with increased communication the hostility levels will go down, and you'll be greeted when you come to shoot the shit.

What's sad though is upon reflection, since we don't, didn't and will never really know, it's quite likely that perception will be that the Arch Overseers accomplishments of recent days was what eventually 'forced your hand' on this issue, regardless of whether it's true or not. I hope your company learns from this that somewhat better communication would have and will in the future prevent this type of perception from happenning.

Anyhow, that's it, looking forward to seeing what's in the works in the month ahead. Tell em to make it good.

[Doggabone]

arf arf

Originally posted by Partha
I don't consider it 'proclaiming failure' to point out what any semi intelligent type who plays this game knows.

Upgrade Warriors to counter the balance and watch everyone blow up over the boost.

Restore the balance by fixing all the classes (or even just one or two classes), and watch those classes and the gimps who depend on them to be able to play with no consequences blow up.

Do nothing and watch Warriors blow up.

Pick your door, ladies and gents, this could be the last chance.

Mebbe not everyone, mebbe not even the majority, but certainly a large vocal chunk will yowl. Same as any other mass product, from Coca Cola to da gummint.

I ditto Frodlin7th, and add that mebbe there's a place between silence and disclosure where some dialogue can take place. No-one expects to know every thing the developer's are doing or thinking, but the occasional "We've moved away from innate damage mitigation for warriors, but haven't ruled it out completely" or summat helps some.

Anywho, I also appreciate the /nod Absor. I certainly hope y'all get it sussed ;).

[Gerick]

ROFL that is the first time i have seen absor stump tharak!

[Gerick]

Originally posted by AbsorEQ
Sorry Darkoan, but I'm certainly not going to encourage behaviour that is disruptive to the gameplay of other players by responding to or about any sit in, except to say that I don't like it when people disrupt the play of others like that.

A

as long as we arnt corpse stacking or blocking ports i dont see that we are doing anything to disrupt the game aside from making it lag like the bazaar

[Valeris]

Now, just about anytime you do come to this board Absor you don't get abuse hurled at you and everyone tries to be polite.

Recent posts to the contrary, normally I'm also a fairly reasonable, live and let live type. On this occasion I'm afraid I find myself unable to be totally politically correct with you.

The trend towards the problems that you are now finally aknowledging was identified very soon after PoP came out (nearly a full year ago now) frustrations began to rise amongst the community as more and more evidence came to light in support of these concerns and expansions that continued to flesh out casters without significantly addressing melee worries were released. There were vague promises that one minor part of that issue would be looked at by nebulous authorities within SoE whilst you, the Sony representative to it's customers made NO attempt to engage with the community most concerned with developments. For 7-8 months we didn't even see a single one liner from you.

When you finally did arrive (to promote a new expansion) you brushed off concerns expressed (and now apparently proven true enough that SoE must respond) with that immortal line "classes are not that out of balance" and a refusal to discuss issues in that or a seperate topic.

I find myself wondering why you might be surprised at the level of frustration this neglect of a portion of your consumer base engendered in people. When you then post Sorry Darkoan, but I'm certainly not going to encourage behaviour that is disruptive to the gameplay of other players by responding to or about any sit in, except to say that I don't like it when people disrupt the play of others like that. I am afraid the thought that went immediately through my mind was "What a supercilious prig".

It was in large part your own lack of effort to connect with this community, your utter absense as a voice for months at a time, your casual, tactless dismissal of concerns and your continued 'attitude' that caused people to feel so angered and frustrated as to support such a disruptive maneuvre. There would not be widespread support for this unless it was seen as the only way in which your customers felt they could make their concerns heard. Wether you feel they are justified or not, that represents a major failing on your part to keep in touch with the community. To continue to dismiss these people as 'disruptive elements' is not likely to dampen down the situation.

Sony has been lacking for a long period of time in their attention to the details of itemisation and it's long term effects. Availability of AA's, additional levels, spells, mana regen etc and their impact have all been ignored in the hopes that the problems will go away or that the community won't notice them if you throw them enough carrots. That is now coming back to bite you (SoE) hard, for that reason it might behoove you (Absor) to be somewhat less judgemental in your attitudes toward a very frustrated percentage of your customers.

Many of your people have done a great job with this game, the 'eventual' release of the customiseable UI, the continued improvements typified by the targetting ring and etc with this patch. It's a great pity that for me the gaming experience has been fatally compromised by a number of factors. A quick couple of examples include the shoddy lore that even a cursory proof-read could have rectified and the laughable, rushed implementation of many upgrades (the quickly removed 'improvements' to Luclin character animations springs to mind).

One thing above all though has engendered this aversion - the apparent lack of interest in the players concerns both on the boards and when dealing directly ingame with CS personnel and the arrogant way in which they are ignored. To my view, the personality you appear to project here is demonstrative of that precise problem.

I'm sorry to say that I will not be purchasing either EQ II or for that matter any other of SoE's future products and my disgust is such that I now think twice about the purchase of any Sony branded product. Lamentably, I have to lay much of the 'blame' for that with you and with your CS staff.

Simon Sharp

[tyrrax]

We sit day, after day, LFG, nobody has wanted us in exp groups for a long time now, and now our Raid role is being destroyed.


Sounds just like SK's during kunark/velious. Someone knocks you off your high horse and you cry like a bunch of babies. If I were Absor I would never think of posting here.


So with a battle cry go forth and that is


NERF KNIGHTS!!!!

[Valeris]

Oh look another kunark-card waving reject. You sat their stoically did you, not emitting a peep in protest?

/laff

Of course, you didn't want warriors to be nerfed did you - you wanted to be one and cast spells.

:p

[Gerick]

ya its like some people asking for a reperissions check for the work their great-great grand dad did, or abusing your minorty status, thing is now your the majority and warriors are the abused class.

most of us dont call for a knight nerf if you have a brain you will notice most people are asking about WARRIOR changes, and making WARRIORS better, not much, if not a single word has said nerf nights in this thread

it may seem like we are making a big hoopla about nothing but we are 2 months away from waiting a full year for a fricking god danged nod in our direction, its not to much to ask is it?

[Kraydak]

Originally posted by Ugok_EMarr
Seems somewhat histrionic to proclaim failure before you even know what the solution will be.

I certainly want to see Warriors get some long overdue attention. Pointless rants however, add nothing to the discussion.

Short simple words you *might* be able to understand:

Option 1) Paladins can still tank Quarm. Warriors are unhappy.

Option 2) Paladins cannot still tank Quarm. Paladins are unhappy.

Option 3) Paladins can still tank Quarm but somehow it doesn't matter. This needs warriors to be completely redefined. Many warriors are unhappy.

Is this sufficiently clear? Must I restrict myself to words of two syllables? Any attempt be make everyone happy is doomed to failure. It will also almost inevitably lead to option 1 (along with some gimmicky pats on the back that mean nothing), or inaction as the developers vainly try to achieve multiple contradictory goals. The last is effectively equivalent to option 1, so, as a warrior, I'm hoping the developers realize that keeping everyone happy is not an option and give up the idea. Its nerf bat time, and I hope the developers swing it freely.

-Kraydak

[DarkWyndre]

Umm,

I play a monk and an enchanter. Enchanter I can always get a group...monk almost never. Nobody wants them. So I always end up making my own group... I never EVER get a warrior, would rather have a Shadowknight tank every time. Every time I've taken a warrior it's too close to call, especially in LDON.

So, I guess what I'm trying to say is this. Warriors are tanks. They are PURE melee. They have NO utility other than putting out damage and taking damage. They have no spells or neat little things they can do (pet for SK, FD/Mend on monks?). Why in the WORLD should the devs give a fack if the hybrids get upset when they're nerfed?

A hybrid is supposed to be able to do more, not be able to do more AND do just as well... Pure melee's don't /HAVE/ another role to fill, so if the fix does not NEGATE the hybrids ability to take the warrior's role, then it's not a fix. Period.

So the only real thing they can do is NERF the hybrid (Knight classes I guess they're called). Warriors NEED better aggro. I can out DPS most warriors in my level range on my server by almost 2-to-1, and I've NEVER grouped with a warrior in my level range who can take and keep aggro from me. I have to wait till the mob is below 85% to even start attacking, and even then I have to EVADE halfway through the fight or I'll take damage and become a mana sponge (EVADE = Stop attack, FD, Stand up, Start attack). That's just sad.

I guess /rant now.

Regards,
DarkWyndre

[Battleblade]

Kraydak,

Option 4) Only Warriors can tank Quarm, only Paladins can tank VZ, only SK's can tank Bert, etc. No one approaches the shear beef of a Warrior and has Defensive (our special abilities). No one can chain aggro effects, DA, and tank like a Paladin. No one can FD, Life Tap, and tank like an SK.

There is no reason IMO why Knights shouldn't MT raid mobs. But I believe the tank should be selected because of their differences and how they can be used to defeat the mob. Enough beef to be CH'd with a rotation is only one appoach to killing a mob. Beef plus absolute aggro lock is another. No one appoach should work with all boss mob.

BB

[Superchum]

"There is no reason IMO why Knights shouldn't MT raid mobs."

IF the playing field at a raid level is going to get EVENED OUT, like you suggest, where knights can be interchangable, or even selected boss mob Main Tanks ...

THEN compensation needs to be made at the small XP group level for warriors.

As in, snap aggro for warriors.

It's a tradeoff.

And that will piss someone off, you can be assured of that.

[Boofus]

Warriors are the pure tank hands down. Thats why we were created, thats our sole purpose, that is why we are here.

For a parent class, who is entirely dependant on the kindness of others, to become 3rd wheel or worse in experience groups, to see our raids roles being diminished and hybrids tanking end game mobs is nothing more than a great injustice to all warriors.

I've been playing my warrior since the original EQ, I've had to sit by and see many of my friends retire from the game. I've had to fill DPS roles in experiece groups because I was replaced by a knight. I have been openly denied positions in groups because I was a warrior. I've been made fun of and in a few cases even taunted by knights stealing aggro from me just for the sport of it.

And I've also seen knights praised like the second coming of jesus christ because of there aggro lock.

Frustration? The only people who are crazy enough to play a warrior now are the people who truly love the class.

[Ugok_EMarr]

Originally posted by Kraydak
Short simple words you *might* be able to understand:


So kind of you.


Option 1) Paladins can still tank Quarm. Warriors are unhappy.

Option 2) Paladins cannot still tank Quarm. Paladins are unhappy.


I don't care whether or not Knights are tanking Quarm, so long as the entire package that is Warrior = the entire package that is Paladin/SK. Right now we're not even close.

How many Warriors do you think will ever get to tank Quarm? I would say 5% tops.

How many Warriors will be or are affected by deficiencies in performing our primary role? Yup, all of them (although some perhaps don't realise it yet).

However, a Paladin tanking Quarm does add weight to our case.

No longer can this tired old retort be produced when we claim to need balancing: "Warriors get to tank end game mobs therefore they should remain behind Knights everywhere else". Remember that one? It has been dealt a mortal blow


Option 3) Paladins can still tank Quarm but somehow it doesn't matter. This needs warriors to be completely redefined. Many warriors are unhappy.


Here is where we differ. Some Warriors will always be unhappy, just as some members of all classes are always unhappy.

However, the level of disillusionment that currently exists within the Warrior community, exists because the problems are real, very real. I would be greatly surprised if a *decent* pure melee solution was implemented and peolple remained upset.


Is this sufficiently clear? Must I restrict myself to words of two syllables?


Perhaps you should restrict yourself to the debate at hand. Personal attacks, do not a good argument make.


Any attempt be make everyone happy is doomed to failure. It will also almost inevitably lead to option 1 (along with some gimmicky pats on the back that mean nothing), or inaction as the developers vainly try to achieve multiple contradictory goals. The last is effectively equivalent to option 1, so, as a warrior, I'm hoping the developers realize that keeping everyone happy is not an option and give up the idea.


No. It is their job to keep everone happy. If we (the players) are not happy, sooner or later we leave.

You are correct that not all changes will be *immediately* accepted by the community. If the changes are the right ones however, the players will realise this soon enough.


Its nerf bat time, and I hope the developers swing it freely.

-Kraydak

No thanks. I believe Knights are two of the most balanced classes in todays EQ. They should be the benchmark we are raised to (Yes, I do see the irony of a parent class being benchmarked against the child class).

[Tharak]

Originally posted by Gerick
ROFL that is the first time i have seen absor stump tharak!

Heh . . when is the last time you even saw Absor on this board period???

Besides truth is, Absor really shoud have come to the warrior boards and posted sooner, because the developers and Absor as their spokesperson have taken 10 months before even whispering of a hint of change. The cut and pasted "future plans" does not count . . . . they could have at least reworded it to make us believe they were actually thinking about it.

I still don;t believe we will see any significant changes, I'm just glad the guildie's I play with appreciate me as is or I would be LFG forever as the one trick pony who doesn;t have a trick anymore.

I don;t envy Absor either, because the developers were embarrassed at the last fan fare and they should be . . . the latest events is just more confirmation . .

[Bunnie Burner]

Absor-- Sorry Darkoan, but I'm certainly not going to encourage behaviour that is disruptive to the gameplay of other players

First of all, this stand down is very much supported by a lot of people, from every sort of community.
I was myself surprised to how much my own guild supported this idea.
It is in no way disruptive to anyone, except to the responsibles in SOE.

Secondly, SOE's lack of care regarding communities and game balance, has been disrupting Warrior's gameplay value for years now.
The most disruptive actions to my own gameplay, has not been beggars, nor KSers, nor any sort of Stand Down...
it has been SOE's incompetence regarding the Warrior and Melee issue.

Even some paladins and shadowknights are supporting our standdown,
so don't you Dare tell us it's disruptive to other players in any form.
That is a blatant lie.

[Kraydak]

Ugok, did I ever say anything about warriors and knights being balanced if only warriors could tank Quarm? Hmmm? I most certainly did not. What I said is that there is an end game mob. His name is Quarm. At the moment, knights can tank him. After any hypothetical balancing, knights may or may not be able to tank him. If knights cannot tank him, then knights will be pissed (not all, but many). If knights can tank him, then the situation remains broken, unless warriors are completely redefined. Many warriors do not want to be redefined, they were created as the ultimate tank class and wish to remain so. Hence many warriors would be pissed. So, whatever happens, many people will be pissed. Regardless of whether the sitation becomes balanced or no. Understand now? Is it really that complicated a concept? Realizing that many people will be angered, whatever happens, is actually fairly liberating for developers, as it broadens the list of actions they can take.

Now, I'm one of those warriors who wants to be the ultimate tank, so I want knights to be nerfed. Either directly or indirectly (via buffing up of warriors and mobs). But buffing up mobs will result in needing to tweak ALL classes some. So I think the best way to handle the situation (tanking wise) is to nerf knights. Its less complicated than buffing up warriors, mobs and every other class, with the same end result.

-Kraydak

[Barboki]

Originally posted by AbsorEQ
I don't have any solid info to give you. Later this month I hope to have some real, solid info to talk about. I'm just not going to speculate until we work some things out. That would only make things worse.

A

I wonder am I the only person that does not want Absor coming here about this problem? I am sorry Absor but like Abashi you are just the PR guy. You have been the middle man. It is time for the middleman to step aside. Bring the people here who are ACTUALLY working on melee balancing. Bring thier boss. But lets cut out all the fluff and stalling. You say it will take months, it has taken months.

[Woody]

In the gaming industry, the developer is not always the best person to talk to. Their skills are more focussed on the task of creating and maintaining the game NOT on communication with the fan base.

This is not a post in support of Absor specifically; but, it is a post in support of his position.

A Community Relations Manager is the persion whose skill IS serving as the go-between for devs and players.

I speak from experience when I say, often times the "creators" respond hot headedly to negative comments regarding their work. **whistles and looks innocent** Hot headed responses are NOT what we warriors need right now.

For months folks here were PLEADING for Absor to say something, anything, on these forums. Now that he's here, no one should push him away. After all, something is better than nothing right?

[Kaesorn]

/agree...I'd rather have Absor knowing he won't get his head bitten off when he posts here than staying away because of a volatile crowd. Granted you could say if he posted more you wouldn't be volatile, but it works both ways.

[Antaran]

Fix the piercing skill cap while your at it

[Valeris]

In the past, specifically when he first came here about LDON EVERYONE bar a very few hotheads bent over backwards to be polite, he refused to discuss balance in a seperate thread and disappeared for another couple of months.

Sorry, This time around I don't feel the least ashamed for giving voice to my opinion.

[Madagascar]

Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf would win in a fight to the death.

[Gerick]

absor, if your company needs to show a little bit better bed side manner for our dying class, as well as let us know if medicine is on the way, or if your just gona let us die.

thats why im pissed, its all hush hush like its a big friggen secret, why all the lock downs on information? you said before that you had no info, then a few weeks later they were testing stuff, and that they were reviewing it, why the heck cant you go into details about what you guys are doing in that office all day? (besides making paper air planes> its not like its a insider stock tip

[Aveen]

You never tell someone who is going to die soon that there is nothing that can be done.

[Flair]

But I don't think people will be pissed off with the solution. We'll be testing all of this quite a bit, so you'll have your chance to see it and give feedback before we put it live

Abs: Thanks for coming by bud.

I think the reason there is so much frustration is focused at you is that there is no regular channel for *DISCUSSION* with you from the folks that make up the TSW. You pop into this thread out of the blue (which leads some of us to believe you lurk here quite often).

My point is: if you come in out of the blue, make statements like i quoted and then go back to lurking the same ol' cycle of irrational expectations is going to take place. Already I personally am thinkin:

1. There is gonna be a solution (aka the "magic bullet") delivered soon
2. That it is going to fix ALL the warrior issues
3. That it is gonna be somewhat based off what takes place on this board.

Obviously that is probably not what you meant. But without ACTIVE management, expecatations are bound to run wild.

Is there ANY possibility of you working with one or two of the mods here to start a location on TSW where you can show up regularly and work with the community? I know alot of folks would contribute politely and creatively if given half the chance (and realize that the solution is not within their hands but SoEs).

[Eradani]

We sit day, after day, LFG, nobody has wanted us in exp groups for a long time now, and now our Raid role is being destroyed.

Sounds just like SK's during kunark/velious. Someone knocks you off your high horse and you cry like a bunch of babies. If I were Absor I would never think of posting here.

Almost, but knights /lfg in kunark didnt have their raid rolls taken away, just no one knew what roll they'd play. Times are most certainly different now, I played a Paladin in Kunark, and it was hardly as bad for them then as it is for warriors now. Perception is everything.

But, this coming from a 56 SK doesnt shock me, you probably never played durring Kunark. Go back to SK.org where your anti-warrior stance will be admired.

Tell me again Grandpa, what was it like in Kunark?

edited out personal attacks - Raaj

[Hyardgune]

We've wanted Absor to post, he did. I hope the development team has something at the end of the month because there will likely be a riot here if there isn't, but in 3 weeks we find out.

[niin]

"except to say that I don't like it when people disrupt the play of others like that"

One could say that the imbalance that has been in place for months if not years also 'disrupts the play of others like that'. So those affected by the imbalance presented here don't like it any more than you like the idea of this 'sit in'.

Just an observation. And this topic really is very long overdue for some sort of explanation.

[Eradani]

Sorry Raaj, I didn't know I typed something that would constitute a personal attack.

My bad.

spelling

[Khumak]

Thanks for the update Absor. It's really nice to get some feedback and I look forward to seeing what comes down the pipe for us. PLEASE continue to give us feedback. Ignore the flamers. We've been desparate for info for a LONG time and that's where most of the hostility comes from.

[AbsorEQ]

Tharak wrote:

Besides truth is, Absor really shoud have come to the warrior boards and posted sooner, because the developers and Absor as their spokesperson have taken 10 months before even whispering of a hint of change. The cut and pasted "future plans" does not count . . . . they could have at least reworded it to make us believe they were actually thinking about it.

Well, I could have only said what I've been saying. The fact that we're working on something hasn't changed during this time. I suppose I could have rewritten the text, but then you would be here telling me that rewording the message doesn't hide the fact that we didn't include any new information. :)

Kaesorn wrote:

/agree...I'd rather have Absor knowing he won't get his head bitten off when he posts here than staying away because of a volatile crowd. Granted you could say if he posted more you wouldn't be volatile, but it works both ways.

My not posting on a subject or board will never have anything to do with any fear of having my head bitten off. If I was worried about that, I wouldn't have taken the job.

I post when I have news. Again, it's sort of a lose-lose situation. If I post just to say "Hello, how are you, things are fine with me - no, I have nothing new to report." You'll still be upset that I came here to post something that didn't say anything new, and that I'm just trying to stall or distract you.

Let me say that I am indeed sorry if the way I've chosen to handle this has upset folks (which it clearly has).

A

[Khumak]

I post when I have news. Again, it's sort of a lose-lose situation. If I post just to say "Hello, how are you, things are fine with me - no, I have nothing new to report." You'll still be upset that I came here to post something that didn't say anything new, and that I'm just trying to stall or distract you.

While that wouldn't be an ideal response it would at least let us know that someone is listening to us and that we aren't just being ignored. That was the perception until recently. If we get no response at all then the assumption will be that either SoE doesn't see anything wrong or doesn't care. I think all of us would much rather see periodic responses even if they're not what we want to hear rather than nothing. At least we know someone is listening that way.

[Partha]

Stolen from the Newbie Zone:

Some special words from SOE about how to run games:

About this talk

•May seem jarringly practical
• •Don’t share this info with your users :p
• •Realize that you are going to need someone who is a politician

Forming the community, part I

•Steal it (Yes, we’re serious)
–Co-opt an existing aggregation of potential customers
–Don’t be blatant; informative, non-hype info will work if your product is solid
–Always be complimentary of the people you stole it from
Forming the community, part II
•Steal early
–Communities are hard to kill, they stick
–It’s hard (and expensive) to steal a subscriber from someone else
–The earlier you lock them in the more likely they are to buy the product

The heart of the game

•Define your mission or goal
–Needs to be something that inspires passion
–Your early adopters are passionate people
•Can it in a slogan
–Make it a slogan that is inclusive and inviting, not domineering
–Develop additional catchphrases/vision statements, use them often
•Proclaim it passionately
–Frankly, you better mean it—they’ll notice if not
–So have the person you have talking mean it even if you don’t
•Don’t tolerate “broken windows”
•Shake your head sadly and tut-tut people who break etiquette
–A little public punishment goes a long way
–Helps co-opt people onto your side, they will enforce for you
•Call out role models
•Celebrate how cool your community is

Community standards: “hard”

•Put them in writing right at the start
–Leave outs for unforeseen cases (“must follow the spirit of the rules…”)
•Take firm action when necessary
–Clear TOS
–Clear warnings
–Clear punishment
•The existence of locked threads helps reinforce that action WILL be taken

Reinforcing community tone

•You have great power
–Whoever you answer gets reinforced; your attention is status
–Whoever you ignore gets marginalized
•Try to seem human
–Corporate/marketdroid speak turns people off
–Use personal touches and humor
•Admit mistakes
–You have to seem human first, of course
–Buys you goodwill when you really screw up
–Be HONEST

More tactics

•Changing the subject
–Don’t answer controversies, you feed them
–New info can derail a distasteful topic
•Act aggrieved
–Only works if you have built trust
•Closing the topic
–Will alienate some, but will become community standard
–You need to have given enough effort to addressing issues

Your community composition

•Realize you are talking to very hardcore people
–Not representative of final market
–…but they ARE the people who generate word of mouth, so keep them happy
–Savvy enough to understand tradeoffs, usually
•Remember your silent majority

Troublemakers, type I: verbal

•Can they become ombudsmen?
–Do they have a sub-community that sees them as a leader?
–Do they have their own forums?
•Can they be ostracized?
–Must be seen to make public effort to communicate
–You’ll need to put on a show of sorrow when you fail
–Make comments to 3rd party about your sorrow too
•Do you have excuses for banning?
–Language is the most common

Troublemakers, type II: hackers

•Most are prideful
–Use admiration/attention as a technique to get their tools
–Run incognito if you can get into bug boards/etc
•Many will offer to help
–Every game that has tried got burned
–They will lie and hold back info
•Some are improving the game
–Cure yourself of NIH and use their ideas, or even hire them to write those tools

Troublemakers, type III: grief players

•Why are they griefing?
–A (very small) percentage is doing it because your design is broken. Fix the design.
•Ban them
–Early, often. Even if they were right about the design being broken.
•Be scrupulous about the legality of the ban
–(never seem to ban because of spite)
–You cannot afford martyrs

Understanding biases

•Source is self-interested
–Will usually argue for improvements to their role
–Diehard player of the role
•Source has particular expertise in subject
–Will often argue for overly hardcore mechanics
•Source gave up on role
–Extremely valuable input
–May just suck at it though

Anyways, thanks for the posts, Absor.

[Superchum]

Ouch.

Best response to absor ... ever.

Partha > Alan

Anyways ...

"–Whoever you ignore gets marginalized"

Now about that MONK Purify Body AA ...

:P

Gotta love it.

[Gerick]

well im glad that absor lurks here and that at least confirms sony is aware of our grevances, weather they are valid or not is still up to SoE

[Tharak]

Originally posted by AbsorEQ

Let me say that I am indeed sorry if the way I've chosen to handle this has upset folks (which it clearly has).

A

Fair enough, but let me direct you to my post (conspicuously labeled letter to Absor). This topic is getting a little to long for me to even bother reading through, guess you have more stamina than I do Absor. My point is the problem has not been clearly defined, nor admitted to by any SoE staff. Taunt has been brought up in a fanfare a while back, but other than being embarassed i have yet to see a real ok we really do see these things as a problem.

I'll admitt i am a fair bit frustrated to say the least, but I am hoping for some good info by the end of the month (like you said we would get). I think from a public relations standpoint it would go a long way if some blurb could be put out at least acknowledging the problems as you see it that you expect to have a further announcement as to some fixes you are thinking of. Knights are whining that we are calling for nerfs etc, and everyone has their own 3rd man on the grassy knoll theory running around on what you guys are looking at fixing and what you are going to do. A lot could be said if you would just clear the air and re-itterate what warriors role should be, and if knight/warrior balance is even being looked at. Will everyone be happy, heck NO! Then again as I see it now there is no statement from SoE that points to any "balancing" being done other than to increase our damage with aa's or boosted PoP weapons.

I am not really mad at you Absor, i don;t like the situation and I don;t like where I find my character at the moment. I've played for four years, and 90% of it on my main character a warrior. I have invested a lot of time and effort into this character, and would rather not be considered obsolete becuase i cannot cast spells.

respectfully,

Tharak 65 Overlord

[Mokor Leadheaad]

We know the melee community feels there is a balance problem. We are looking into this preceved problem to determin if there is a problem with balance. If we determin there is a problem with balance, and if we feel it is large enough. We will construct a fix to rebalance the issue we discover.


Untill they figure out what the problem is, if one exsist, they can't fix it. Absor can come here every month and say we haven't found anything that needs balanceing yet, and we would harp at him, or we can wait till he has a real briefing to give us with real information. That information could be good or bad depending on how you look at it. SOE could easly say we found no balance issues in the game mechanics, and everything is working as intended.

[Tharak]

Originally posted by AbsorEQ

Let me say that I am indeed sorry if the way I've chosen to handle this has upset folks (which it clearly has).
A

Let me add one more thing;

I don;t think anyone is mad at Absor persay, but absor does represent SoE to the community, and the community is ticked at SoE. 10 months is a whole lot of time to outline a problem and come up with some idea's to solve it. Ideally their would have been news for Absor to post, however it has been saddly silent for many many many months. I truly believe absor doesn;t have anything to post, and he was probably right in not just making stuff up, however that does not excuse the company as a whole for ignoring the problem. I know absor will defend the developers to the death, but there is no excuse for leaving these problems and not dealing with them until now. The developers were embarassed at the last fanfare, as well they should be. What really makes it all the more sad is they fall on their face trying to work on balance yet they put out one of the best expansions in EQ's history (well imho). On the one hand they did a bang up job on the expansion but the team handling the balance issue . . . . well they need a new job quite frankly. In 10 months just now they are getting around to posting some changes . . . and it comes right after a guild exploits the balance problems and posts it for everyone to see (you did see AO's web page correct? ya know "who needs warriors episode 1-6" ?) It's sad really it is . . . someone dropped the ball now this is just a big PR mess and absor is left holding the bag trying to come up with reasonable answers to all the warriors saying WTF?!?!

[Thaak]

Absor, just want to let you know that we're not frustrated at you, since you can only do so much.

We're mad at the devs for not giving you shit to give us.

[Tharak]

hummm what thaak said

i need to cut down on the verbage . .

[Drach]

*takes Absor to a shady corner of the bar*

Absor...you have or can get the information we need. *slides a plate of warm, fresh baked cookies Absor's way* And we have something you want...hopefully. Do we have an agreement?

j/k Nice to see at least something posted though, which is far far preferable to silence.

[Valeris]

Ah, the raph koster guide to suckering your customers, reposted in a neat pocket edition!

Thumbs up Partha :p

/chuckle

[Aveen]

Absor,
Thanks for the apology. In the last week, you have made a real effort to open the lines of communication even though you don't have much to say. That means a lot to me, it shows that maybe we can work this out.

I know you don't want to make promises that you can't keep. However it would mean a lot more to us if you could tell us what areas of warriors, and melee's in general you guys are looking at.

[Daldomer]

Thanks for your reply Absor, it is a bit late but still it is something. Only thing I would like to know is how out of balance do you think classes are now? When you said that infamous line, you alienated alot of people. That one little statement where you blew off our concerns as a community.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"Classes are not that out of balance."
Absor

"Let me say that I am indeed sorry if the way I've chosen to handle this has upset folks (which it clearly has)."
Absor
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Frankly any flame posts you recieve here you pretty much deserve, especially you being our one and only line of communication with your company. You blew us off.
The statement about how you handled this is probably the closest we will get to a apology from either you or your company for over 10 months of silence or repeated patch spam.
Some people might want me to pipe down, hoping you will post here more or be more involved in the community.
If you get more involved great,but expect to eat a little crow with it.
I really hope your Magic patch fixes things, it is way overdue.
Next time before you blow off a large portion of your player base , you might want to explain your opinion a little.

Daldomer Aleslayer
65th Warrior of VZ

[Bikamar]

Tharak, a word of caution:
I'll admitt i am a fair bit frustrated to say the least, but I am hoping for some good info by the end of the month (like you said we would get).

Absor made no guarentee there would be solid info end-of-month:

I don't have any solid info to give you. Later this month I hope to have some real, solid info to talk about. I'm just not going to speculate until we work some things out. That would only make things worse.

[czai]

The fact that we're working on something hasn't changed during this time.

After 10 months of "working on something," the devs are unable to give you anything concrete to report to the warrior community?

Yet I see new spells going into Test all the time. Divine Avatar 1-3.

Your devs ought to be ashamed of themselves.

[gulug]

absor thanks for dropping by. even though you dont have any news its good to know these boards are getting looked at, and hopefully devs have read what specifically has been upsetting warriors.

hopefully you can impress upon them that something SUBSTANTIVE had better come out of the works soon so i look forward to your update before the end of this month.

if i can just say this too, there is a lot of knowledge and experience and objectivity on these boards (ignoring the rant crazy ones). the issue of melee balancing is not an easy one, so
if theres any avenue that the devs are thinking of proceeding along, i dont see why this couldnt be discussed here for feedback before its finalised. i cant guarantee that you wont get a lot of crap, but you would probably expect that. but again you may get some positive feedback which may be useful to your devs.

[Gerick]

of course not bika he does it to avoid more qoutes :D

[Gerick]

Originally posted by gulug
absor thanks for dropping by. even though you dont have any news its good to know these boards are getting looked at, and hopefully devs have read what specifically has been upsetting warriors.

hopefully you can impress upon them that something SUBSTANTIVE had better come out of the works soon so i look forward to your update before the end of this month.

if i can just say this too, there is a lot of knowledge and experience and objectivity on these boards (ignoring the rant crazy ones). the issue of melee balancing is not an easy one, so
if theres any avenue that the devs are thinking of proceeding along, i dont see why this couldnt be discussed here for feedback before its finalised. i cant guarantee that you wont get a lot of crap, but you would probably expect that. but again you may get some positive feedback which may be useful to your devs.

hell you might find a new balancing prodidgy that you can take under your wing in the CA offices :D

[tyrrax]

Lets see so many flames so little time....

But, this coming from a 56 SK doesnt shock me, you probably never played durring Kunark. Go back to SK.org where your anti-warrior stance will be admired.

I guess just because I'm 56 means I don't know what I'm talking bout.

Tell me again Grandpa, what was it like in Kunark?

Old, you got that right. My SK has been around longer than your entire server.

We sit day, after day, LFG, nobody has wanted us in exp groups for a long time now, and now our Raid role is being destroyed.

I take back what I said previously, I'll put it in a language that you can understand....boofrigginghoo. Cry me a river.

I don't hate all warriors, just the stupid ones.

[Domack]

Your 'we sucked in velious' statement was rubbish. That was a long time ago and most knights playing now never played with any type of hybrid penalty never mind play in kunark. It is irrelevant. Move on.

The most honest statement you made was boofrigginghoo. Cry me a river.

Its the attitude given by most knights it seems. Don't look for a constructive reply when you had nothing constructive to say in the first place.

[tyrrax]

My original argument still stands. The "Holy Trinity" is broken and you can't handle it. I would offer a constructive reply but it would never do any good.

[Kailyn]

Just curisous...

What could they possibly do (other than 3 weeks of real work) on this that they cannot announce now that they can at the end fo the month?

There is a real credibility problem here.

[Daramin]

The same shit we're doing -- argue over what to do.

What, you think just because they're a company that they don't have differences of opinion too? My best guess is that they had some folks working on this, maybe on the back burner, maybe not. However they weren't planning on announcing what they were going to do this soon, so the folks who were responsible are probably not done hashing out the solution. Once you have a solution from the game designers, the devs have to look at it and bless it, estimate it, etc.

Ever had a deadline 3 months off, that you needed to do a week's work for? And when you have that happen, do you do the work now, or before the deadline? Keep in mind, most folks in business have multiple competing deadlines, some short term, some long term. It's pretty common to emphasize short term goals and see long term ones keep slipping off the radar.

[Thaak]

Originally posted by tyrrax
The "Holy Trinity" is broken and you can't handle it.
There hasn't been a holy trinity since Kunark.

Stop being spoonfed what SKO says.

[tyrrax]

Stop being spoonfed what SKO says.

I don't need to read SKO to tell me what I went through. All your whining still doesn't change anything. SK's used to suck until PoP now all of sudden warriors are mad because they can't tank in every situation.

[Kyryll]

We can tank in every situation. The problem is they made you a frickin' warrior with a spell book . The "holy trinity" argument is stupid Tyrrax, and if you're so damn knowlegeable at 56, you'll know why.

[Superchum]

"SK's used to suck until PoP "

The GOOD SK's didn't suck in Velious or Luclin.

Just the bad ones.

Which kind were you?

[Jake]

Cant you guys see they arent working on anything? Just from his posts you can weed through the BS and see they arent working on anything. Stop kidding yourselves, they arent doing dick about balancing.


"Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me"

[Kalaz]

The more things change.....

http://www.evercrest.com/archives/20000126

[tyrrax]

Abashi was teh suck just ask your friendly neighborhood necro.

[Elidroth]

The thing with GOOD PR people is they know that lack of communication is ALWAYS worse than having nothing to say but being visible. Just not saying anything alienates people.

[wyndaria]

I think it was summed up best above...

Someone was working on melee balancing, it was just low priority. The issues are super complex and game changing.

Now that the community is in an uproar over it, the priority raises, and something will be done. Fortunately, the community is in such a furor that the solution will likely be very interesting for all involved.

Wars are likely to get more dps, more agro generation, AND more utility. Not just a trivial gimmick, but something fun and interesting to boot. And that takes time to figure out...

BUT. I am still doing a sit out on the 18th. See ya there.

Adventure well,

[Stommper]

Hey all,

As you can tell (I'm the original poster of this thread) I monitor the newbie message board quite a bit. I just found this Absor response to a thread dealing with our standdown...I guess he sees even a passive, non-blocking, non-spamming, protest as a disruption (bolding by me for emphasis)...

Just two points.
1) Spamming petitions is indeed disruption. You are preventing others that may actually need help from being heard.

2) Though I know the original poster did not intend this thread as such, I don't allow people to post here encouraging people to disrupt the gameplay of others. Sit-ins cause tremendous lag in several zones (not just the one people are sitting in) and really mess up the game for folks. So I'm going to close this thread.

A

FYI, the actual thread is here

http://boards.station.sony.com/ubb/everquest/Forum4/HTML/052921.html

[Gerick]

lol dont you love how people can stretch the PnPs to suit anything @_@

[Superchum]

Alan cracks me up.

" Sit-ins cause tremendous lag in several zones (not just the one people are sitting in) and really mess up the game for folks."

Plane of Knowledge is a zone DESIGNED to deal with traffic.

If it can't, then there's a problem with the ZONE'S DESIGN Alan. Not the players.

I've had raid wipeouts "block off" access to the PoT stone before.

I've had lag caused by large amounts of people at the Nexus stone before.

But that wasn't against the rules.

Why is it so bad for a bunch of warriors to be AFK in a zone that people tend to AFK in?

[Grimpond]

/giggle

He just doesn't want this issue to be the 'top story' that it's starting to become.

Plus, Super, you shooting holes all through argument is just classic.

[Gerick]

i know a screenshot of the day place, post this to everlore