Its been 3 months!

[Aveen]

/rant on
Ok so its been 3 friggen months since the Dev corner announced that they would be looking at tanking. ( See Under Review (http://eqlive.station.sony.com/community/dev_view.jsp?id=53816) for the post.)

All that we have seen of this is the monks get un-nerfed.

I cry foul on this. The dev's do not care about warriors. And on this board, that means you!

For nearly a year we have complained about our situation, made worse by PoP. The thread "The State of Warriors" has since aged out of the old board, but many of the points it made have not even been acknowledged by the devs.

It would make my day to hear a yes we looked at that and we aren't gonna change it or a no we wont look at that, than the bullshit "were looking at tanking" then nothing lip service toquiet us down so we can go back to hopeing there will be something in the next patch.

I'm sick of being ignored by the devs. I love the game, I am a warrior at heart, but the class is being ignored!

/rant off

[Dinian]

For some reason we are always a lower priority when it comes to tweaking game mechanics. They insist that changes to the warrior class are hardest because we are the baseline to which other classes are balanced against.

Well wtf? Are they gonna nerf everybody else because we got the short stick for tanks in POP?

Everytime I compare paladin or sk elemental armor to warrior armor and think that itemization is what will make us superior tanks in all respects I get a little more pissed.

And that's just at the highest level of the game. Itemization for plate tanks has been hosed since Velious with the multi class items. They just continued the BS into elemental armor. Put a melee focus effect (which work) on pure melee elemental armor at least :P 15hp and a few ac won't cut it...

Bleh enough ranting. Hell the rant was only for the highest level of the game anyway.

[Sargman]

And in the end, we'll likely end up with 15% more mitigating ability, and taunt broken further than it is now.

[Dobbo Baggins]

i can live, i can tank i can have fun i can kick ass. no other class can do this all at once.

[Eoden]

i can live, i can tank i can have fun i can kick ass. no other class can do this all at once.

Except for Paladins and Shadow Knights ?

*kicks the pile of horse bones*

[Dobbo Baggins]

no. they can kick ass and all. i forgot one thing being a wuss and cast spells doesn't impress the chicks as much as keeping a raid alive by going suicide.

[Kaesorn]

Those "wuss" paladins can hold agro better than almost any warrior, can heal themselves and the entire group mid battle, can stop the mob attacking for periods of time with stuns, and with AAs can tank just as well as warriors and get nearly as much hp...add in a warrior /shielding him and you pretty much don't need warrior tanks at all except in the really high end game.

Am I anti-paladin? Yes...yes I am. ^_^ But I'm a BST now, so I just do a lot of dmg and play backup shammy =P

Warrior gets in group, every slow the mob makes a run for the chanter/shaman/whatever. Cleric goes oom a lot because she has to heal many people. Paladin joins up after warrior leaves, he's 3 levels lower (61)...yet cleric is FoM almost all the time because she only has to heal one person. Thinking objectively, who would you want to be the tank, the higher level one where there's lots of downtime and can't hold agro, or the lower level hybrid who can keep all healing on just him? Warriors, the best tank in the game, are nothing without being to hold guaranteed agro, and a good amount of people are spoiled on hybrid tanks and not having to hold back their agro generation. In exp groups, they want to kill as fast as possible...warrior tanks are a liability there, I'm very sorry to say.

Paladin's also get Act of Valor (they commit suicide and heal the person for however many hp they had), so not only warriors go suicide, although you'd be hard pressed to find a paladin who actually bought that AA, they'd rather do the tanking themselves. =P (although I love seeing them die...and I play a cleric. Weeeeee!)

Warriors really need to be looked at and given a boost, no question about it. You guys should be on top of the list for upgrades, no exceptions, there's no other class which is overlooked as badly as you are because you can't do your job. Hell, if they could finally decide to let the cleric epic, a long-time item called "overpowering if so many clerics could get it", be gotten by practically any cleric who decided to get it on a whim, then they can make warriors powerful and useful again to all without screwing up the other classes. Anyone agree?

Melee focus items on PURE MELEE ONLY gear would be nice. I'm a proponent on special abilities given to melees (but dear god, don't let it be more AAs or /disc). I'm thinking more like innate buffing ability, but where the buffs go to the temporary buff window so they can't stay on zoning. They're activated by hotkey, are instant (can switch them out whenever), and can only have 1-2 on at any one time...how's that? You might consider it spellcasting, I'm thinking it's like /discs, but in buff form.

Hmmm...should this be moved to rants now? =P

[Eoden]

Sure, most people agree that the warrior still shines on raids, and to me thats more important than being the best XP group tank in the whole wide world...

However from the perspective of playing an enchanter in tier 2 PoP and slowing in XP groups I have SKs with 3khps unbuffed (around 4.5k group buffed w/ no shaman) who make more effective tanks than warriors with 6-8k buffed hitpoints simply because I can slow on inc and they never loose agro.

Never having to tank an unslowed mob means any HP/AC deficit they have means jack, and when a 62 SK in pre-NToV gear makes a more effective tank in an XP group than a 65 warrior in Ssra level gear, then its pretty clear that the warrior is getting a raw deal.

Sure warriors can tank and be great tanks, but in XP groups much of what can be moderately difficult with a warrior tanking is trivial with a knight tanking.

[Frax]

We do one thing, and we do it better than anyone, and thats soak up mob DPS. It isn't as sexy as a 6K wizard critical blast or an enchanter with slows/haste/charms/mez/clarity, but it's what we do. That is unfortunately what the game is tuned around is the healing/dps of groups vs of NPCS. Warriors and clerics are the center of this, and you will not see the power of those two classes grow much, if at all.

This game isn't targeted to the 6 person group any longer, it's aimed towards the 40 person raid encounters. Expecting any eye-popping changes to the warrior class now? I wouldn't hold your breath.

[Five]

We're reviewing the tanking ability of the various melee and hybrid classes to be sure each class is competitively balanced with the others. The main factors we're considering are the ability to take damage, deal damage, and the additional abilities of each class. The goal with this review is to find any issues where melee classes are not "bringing enough to the party" when comparing their package of abilities. We're paying particular attention to the avoidance-focused classes such as the monk, to be sure things end up where they should.

Where in this did you see the word "warrior"?

With a Dev team consisting of folks who will readily admit their mains are rangers, rogues, monks, etc. - I've yet to see one that is a warrior and I'm not holding my breath.

State your facts, back your facts up with numbers. Don't even vaguely insinuate that anyone at VI is not a complete genius and attempt to kiss their frail, ego arses while showing them the real numbers and facts, begging and pleading with them to actually address a real issue - then maybe something will happen.

Until then, it's just cheap talk.

[Glatius2]

Sure warriors can tank and be great tanks, but in XP groups much of what can be moderately difficult with a warrior tanking is trivial with a knight tanking.

The truth of the above shows the below to be false:

We do one thing, and we do it better than anyone, and thats soak up mob DPS. It isn't as sexy as a 6K wizard critical blast or an enchanter with slows/haste/charms/mez/clarity, but it's what we do. That is unfortunately what the game is tuned around is the healing/dps of groups vs of NPCS. Warriors and clerics are the center of this, and you will not see the power of those two classes grow much, if at all.

The fact is Warriors are no longer the center of anything except a 40 person raid encounter. While some people feel raid encounters ARE the game, far more feel that raid encounters are but a small segment of the game. I'd go so far to as to say that for 70% or more of the player population raids are a minor part of their weekly activity. To allow Warriors to be shut out of the majority of the game for the majority of the player base to the extent that PoP has done is not just bad development, it's bad business strategy. If my feelings are fairly typical, I'm personally on the verge of leaving EQ altogether based more than anything on the fact that Warriors have not only been historically neglected by the development staff, but to add insult to injury, they've admitted they need to look at the situation and then do nothing.

[Brutul]

/yawn

[Vamcoy]

You all just need to calm down and have some beer. They are not gonna change anything about us. We have to get used to the fact that the devs see us as the baseline class and therefore the class that doesnt need anything done to them. Does it suck?

Yes, but hey deal with it try different things I know I still have a cleric or two out there that want me as a tank for there groups. We might not have the aggro of pallies and SKs but we ussually still have better AC and HP then them.

[wraq]

Agree with the rants. They need to do something, i do not have problems getting groups or anything but it's because of friends. It's not right when a Pali or SK can take and hold aggro with a higher level warrior right next to him maxing his dps and taunting his butt off. It is beyond a bandaid repair anylonger and although I like /shield, that just isn't cutting it.

/gesture Devs

[Solinar]

I can only speak from a high end raiding warrior's perspective, but I believe at the level I play at, I am actually overpowered compared to other melee.

I tank far better than any other class in my guild. I can out-damage monks and almost match rogues DPS with agressive for 3 minutes (and how many PoP fights last past 3 minutes).

Warriors, at the top end at least, have absolutely nothing to complain about at the moment.

[Eoden]

Light at the end of the tunnel from Solinar~

I did state that my comments were from my own perception where Tier 2 PoP zones make up the bulk of my XPing time.

[Casai]

ALL BITCHING AND NO PLAY MAKES CASAI A DULL BOY
ALL BITCHING AND NO PLAY MAKES CASAI A DULL BOY
ALL BITCHING AND NO PLAY MAKES CASAI A DULL BOY
ALL BITCHING AND NO PLAY MAKES CASAI A DULL BOY
ALL BITCHING AND NO PLAY MAKES CASAI A DULL BOY
ALL BITCHING AND NO PLAY MAKES CASAI A DULL BOY
ALL BITCHING AND NO PLAY MAKES CASAI A DULL BOY
ALL BITCHING AND NO PLAY MAKES CASAI A DULL BOY
ALL BITCHING AND NO PLAY MAKES CASAI A DULL BOY

On the other note warriors are just fine I can tank much better then any pally and I've grouped with 1 as recentley as today. I need MUCH less healing and hold agro just fine same with SKs.

[Glatius2]

On the other note warriors are just fine I can tank much better then any pally and I've grouped with 1 as recentley as today. I need MUCH less healing and hold agro just fine same with SKs.

You're entitled to your delusions. But the people who say it isn't true (as far as holding aggro 'just fine') aren't just other Warriors. But hey, Warriors are known for chest beating machoness, regardless of the facts.

[Frax]

Originally posted by Glatius2
The truth of the above shows the below to be false:



The fact is Warriors are no longer the center of anything except a 40 person raid encounter. While some people feel raid encounters ARE the game, far more feel that raid encounters are but a small segment of the game. I'd go so far to as to say that for 70% or more of the player population raids are a minor part of their weekly activity. To allow Warriors to be shut out of the majority of the game for the majority of the player base to the extent that PoP has done is not just bad development, it's bad business strategy. If my feelings are fairly typical, I'm personally on the verge of leaving EQ altogether based more than anything on the fact that Warriors have not only been historically neglected by the development staff, but to add insult to injury, they've admitted they need to look at the situation and then do nothing.

I agree with your assessment, warriors (along with clerics) are the cornerstone of raiding. I also agree that the vast majority of the player base IS NOT raiding ubermob00 every night. There are tons of things to do in everquest other than raid, which is why I posted on the FOH board that the bandaid fixes that are applied are almost all in response to uberguild whining. These fixes actually making the average player feel left out more and more. I, for one, hope the next couple of expansions are more kunark like, with varied things for all levels.

Warriors won't see any massive changes that will make a difference in our daily playing because they could potentially throw raid balancing far out of whack. Just like clerics won't get a 10K CH back.

[Kalantek]

ok look at when PoP launched, how many classes got horrbily mauled by the nerf bat, SoE flat out released a statement saying that increasing one class' ability to match anothers just makes for another upgrade because the first got upgraded too much,

so they nerfed back, instead of tweaked forward

they jacked mod rods, heals, and other stuff i was to drunk to keep reading,

but what im getting at, is that the new mind-set of nerfing competition instead of buffing the disadvantaged is roadblocked by the apparent attention to the whining of the knight classes, im not bashing the classes, im just saying when the hybrids as a group whine, they get more results, and if they oppose getting nerfed like im sure they would, it wouldnt happen

look at the monk nerf, then the partial (hah!) un-nerf, i dont know how dramatic the nerf was, or how dramatic the un-nerf was, nor do i care, but it just shows me that most other classes get results

am i whining? no, i will whine when i cant do my job under the simplist of circumstances, til then i will continue to to yell at those who cant manage their aggro, the only true disadvantage i REALLY feel is being put into a situation of being a drill sergent to my group

but im a newb, dont read meh posts

[Boofus]

/Rant on

How long have we been discussing this for now months? and the only word we get from a Dev is spam?

/Rant off

[Crist0]

That sums it up Boofus. It's really nice Absor can drag his ass here to PR a new server but can't do his frickin JOB and be the go between for our class and the dev team.

Oh ya, you missed listing paladin Five.

[Boofus]

We're reviewing the tanking ability of the various melee and hybrid classes

Various melee.

I fail to see how this does not include warriors, do we not tank?

[FarlanderB]

It does include warriors. I do not, however, think that the dev's are intentionally ignoring warriors. MAYBE they really feel since we raid-tank, knights should group-tank (although I hope not).

Sure... I'll believe that the next time I'm asked to join a group 'cause of my DPS or to play the /shield-bitch.

[Dobbo Baggins]

i raid about 35% of my time group 35% do other stuff 30%. i can hold aggro on raids good. i can hold aggro on groups good. if a pally/sk joins the group i let them. it's funny sitting back relaxing with a coke watching good ol' Rush Hour 2 or a movie and not having to worry about positioning,slowing,tagging etc etc.

[slyse]

Originally posted by Dobbo Futreet
i raid about 35% of my time group 35% do other stuff 30%. i can hold aggro on raids good. i can hold aggro on groups good. if a pally/sk joins the group i let them. it's funny sitting back relaxing with a coke watching good ol' Rush Hour 2 or a movie and not having to worry about positioning,slowing,tagging etc etc.


Ok, so you let hybrids tank when you share a group because (I assume) they hold aggro better. So let me ask you, when you tank can your shammy/chanter slow the mob before it ever gets a chance and not get hit once? Can your nukers go on full burn for as long as they have the mana and never get summoned or even have the mob look at them? Can your rogues and monks do as much dps as they want and never have to touch their evade/fd hotkeys? I know the answer already.

The real problem is that if a pally/sk is tanking, the answer to every single one of those questions is yes. The rest of the group can do whatever the hell they want and not worry one bit about aggro because knights have flawless aggro control, while when a warrior tanks, the rest of the group simply can't operate at maximum efficiency in order to keep the mob looking at the tank most of the time. How many hits unslowed do you take, on average, in xp groups? How many hits does your shaman/chanter take after slow lands? how many do they take when they have to recast after a resist? With a hybrid, the answer is 0.

[Crist0]

I *do* think the dev team ignores warriors, both in the fixing and in avoiding any sort of relationship with the warrior players as a whole.

Look at other class boards and see how often someone from soe stops in there(well, possibly with the exception of shaman)..if they cared at all about our class they would at least stop in to say WHY they don't feel the need to change it, or that they were doing something to fix it.

[Arthyr]

Have we invited the Dev's over for some ribs and 'lemonade'? Or are they afraid they will end up on the grill?

[Smohg]

Quote from above:

Ok, so you let hybrids tank when you share a group because (I assume) they hold aggro better. So let me ask you, when you tank can your shammy/chanter slow the mob before it ever gets a chance and not get hit once? Can your nukers go on full burn for as long as they have the mana and never get summoned or even have the mob look at them? Can your rogues and monks do as much dps as they want and never have to touch their evade/fd hotkeys? I know the answer already.

The real problem is that if a pally/sk is tanking, the answer to every single one of those questions is yes. The rest of the group can do whatever the hell they want and not worry one bit about aggro because knights have flawless aggro control, while when a warrior tanks, the rest of the group simply can't operate at maximum efficiency in order to keep the mob looking at the tank most of the time. How many hits unslowed do you take, on average, in xp groups? How many hits does your shaman/chanter take after slow lands? how many do they take when they have to recast after a resist? With a hybrid, the answer is 0.

End of quote.

I play a warrior 99% of the time now and usually on raids. I've been turned down for groups because Im not a pal/sk even though I have one of the better aggro set-ups. But Im going to tell you now that they above isnt exactly true.

Due to some unpleasantness in a guild I really liked - I left and then for last summer I didnt raid and instead leveled all my twinks to 51+. So now I have a PoN, PoD, PoI, PoJ capable ranger, rogue, monk, SK, BST, cleric, shaman, wiz, mage, enchanter, and necromancer. (yes, its easy to level now - a few of those are close to doing the POJ trials)

Yes, I know its true that a SK or Pal can hold aggro better. No doubts about that. But its not absolute - especially for the shaman/enchanter.

Playing my SK - I can regain aggro within seconds - but I can with my warrior also. Just with my SK, I regain it FOR SURE - with my warrior its not even 50%.

With my rogue and wizard - I can nuke or BS at will and get off the top of the aggro list fairly quickly. The wizard has to be a little careful though because he can get to LH aggro range in the 2-3 seconds it takes a SK/knight to get aggro back. These classes seem to be at the best advantage for having a knight.

Shaman/enchanter - Knights definately get aggro back more reliably but I still draw aggro ALOT from slowing/tash/cripple. But if I got a warrior, I wait much longer before slowing the mob - and I dont get aggro. Knights I try and slow right away - warriors I give about 10 seconds. How easy is that?

Clerics - warriors are SOO much easier to heal. I play my cleric when I feel bad about the knight/war issues. I found its very obvious. Was healing a group in PON with a 58 pally, nicely equipped. He was replaced by a lvl 55 warrior with inferior gear. Warrior required much less healing when he had aggro - but the enchanter was slowing as the mob came in - so if taunt wasnt working then she was getting hurt. This enchanter started complaning and I suggested that she wait a bit before slowing. So she says sure, and then refused to slow the next two mobs. I kept the tank up - although with much more difficulty - and didnt say anything and figured her little game was soon to be over. She actually got mad that the warrior didnt die and gated out and said "I dont need someone to tell me how to play my class" before she disbanded.

Well hell, if she would have waited 10 seconds before tashing and slowing then the group would have been golden.

I hate to say it - but that's not a warrior problem, sony problem, enchanter problem, etc. That's an intellegence problem.

[Dobbo Baggins]

We're reviewing the tanking ability of the various melee and hybrid classes to be sure each class is competitively balanced with the others. The main factors we're considering are the ability to take damage, deal damage, and the additional abilities of each class. The goal with this review is to find any issues where melee classes are not "bringing enough to the party" when comparing their package of abilities. We're paying particular attention to the avoidance-focused classes such as the monk, to be sure things end up where they should.


The goal with this review is to find any issues where melee classes are not "bringing enough to the party

they talking about us right there.

[Five]

LOL! If you believe that for one millisecond, I have a *great* deal for you on a bridge with a spectacular view of the ocean.

I listened to a ranger in Test chat last night go on and on about how an SK or a Pal is the preferred tank in exp groups but gee, don't worry because Warriors will always have a place on high end raids.

And exactly HOW the F are warriors supposed to get exp to be high level with AA to do their jobs on raids if they are the substandard choice for exp groups?

Puleeze. Beat this dead horse all you want. I have never, ever, seen a Dev with a Warrior main. Seen every single one of them with a monk or a paladin or a wizard or a ranger ... Bringing that fact up to the Lead Dev got me a warning to shut up or get kicked from beta and be replaced by someone more "cooperative".

The day they walk the walk is the day I'll believe the talk they talk.

[Crist0]

Personally, I believe dev members playing knights are the reason why the warrior class has been ignored and even screwed over since kunark. They've been purposefully boosting their pet classes.

After all, we all know dev members have a history of overpowering the classes they play.

[Shikarii]

Either way; I still have fun. I hope no one takes offense to this next statement I am about to make but I gave up a long time ago trying to believe or have someone prove to me that a Warrior is a necessary class in EQ in any way, shape, or form besides some other mofo hogging up mana and one more fuckwit rolling on lewts.. We're long lost remnants of a forgotten day and to those who still choose to follow the way of the Warrior; here's to ya. To those who no longer all I can say is "I really can't blame ya".

COme to read Five's statements she made; it also irons out cut and dry why I chose to no longer play on my old server. It's hard being level 65 and 500K AA points like all my old friends loved to put in their signatures when you even see in guildchat "Looking for DPS to join group in <zone>" or "Any Pal/SK need a group? while the 5 or so warriors that were online either PL'ed themselves a healer to make their own group ( or get asked to them with their healer NOT their main toon )...or to just log off.

[Boofus]

Hell, I have a BoC and primal and have been passed over for an SK/Pal more then once in pick-up groups.

Now it's public perception, and I find that more disturbing.

[Aveen]

Perhaps we should start an email campaign, petition, /feedback campaign to SOE. Perhaps they would start listening.

All it would have to be is when you log in on your warrior type /feedback I am unhappy with the state of warriors.

Do that each time you log in, a few thousand feedback's a day and they are gonna have to start paying attention.

[Shikarii]

lol aveen. that last sentence was pretty funny. :D

[Gunrack]

been thinking that since I started reading these boards.. has someone actually wrote a letter petition style? signature and such.. or maybe got together and said ok.. starting today all warriors plz feedback etc...

[Aveen]

Here is Absor's email. Tell him off about the warrior issues. A full inbox might make him want to smash something.

avancouvering@soe.sony.com

[Splaktar]

If you don't like your class, quit or make another char. With exp being so easy up to 61 now, it's almost a joke to start a new char.

If enough people quit their wars, then maybe they will do someting. But then again... you can look at the massive # of cleric's who have quit since PoP opened... and VI is still not doing anything about Clerics....

I'm surprised that Brutal has managed to ignore this thread :P (sans a /yawn).

Warrior's aren't flashy or fun in EQ. It's a job, it's a chore, it's a task. If you want to have 'fun' and do 'cool stuff' then you should be some other class. If you want to die, die, die.... die... hit some stuff.... die... die, die.... get healed and buffed.... die... die... die... then you should keep playing your war ;P

As for exp... I've given up on groups... no one wants warriors and we can't solo. There's usually 5-10 62-65 War's LFG during prime time, and I've spent 6+ hours in the mornings LFG many times... Either you need close friends dedicated to exp'ing with you or you need to be able to 3-box plevel yourself (which is what I do now).

I'm still not holding any glimmer of hope that VI will make any useful changes to PoP and warriors in the next few months. Seems like we're getting close to EOL to me.

[Aveen]

It is funny you should say that Splaktar. Clerics would have shouted bloody murder had warriors posted dribble like that when they were trying to get their epic quest changed, or when druids and shaman were given complete heals.

So, kindly STFU. I am a warrior. I don't like what sony has done with the class. That doesn't mean I want to play another class.
And I am sure a lot of warriors who have workd to get where they are don't want to just shut up and die, or start another class.

Other than that, you just made the point of all the warrior complaining.

[Boofus]

If you don't like your class, quit or make another char.

Warriors don't quit.

[gulug]

at the end of the day its a bit about perspective. sure pallys can hold aggro better but all it takes is a bit of adjustment. today i had a 56 ench in poi factory.

i told him to hold off fora while before casting slow and made sure i had max dex. i was proccing my wc/frosty a few times off the bat and by the time slow hit the mob didnt even flinch. i then swopped out to a 2 hander. earlier i had a lower pally in the group. i could have sat back and said go ahead and tank, but instead i said just cast a few stuns on inc to get attention then i taunted off her. worked perfectly each time and ench never had any problems.

id love a fix, but not holding my breath and think we just have to make the best of it in the meantime.

[Gunrack]

Exactly! Talk to these other classes, make them work their agro control to help you! This to include telling paladins to do things such as what was mentioned above, or telling your enchanter STFU and slow 10 later than normal plz. Truthfully if the person takes offense I wouldn’t want them in my group any damn way.

My best friend IRL is the cleric that I am going to have when my warrior reaches adequate level to group. From his excperience in the last 3 years of EQ (60 lvl Cleric) he has told me that no one.. he means NO ONE compares to a warrior in tanking being close due to spells and extra buffs does not matter close isn’t IT. Now I think we all agree on this and the point is agro control.. well to have agro control most hybrids including rangers use spells… spells use mana.. and before someone tells me OMFG but they have a lot of mana.. NO.. this is BS.. in a normal casual xp grind just about anywhere these people aren’t equipped THAT good… if they are.. they are already 65 and farm AA’s with guild anyways…

The worse thing for my friend to hear which he has told me himself is when you have a tank that says “give me a sec to med up a bit” I mean SHEESH we go through the trouble of keeping you healed.. slowing the mob.. buffing you and now our tank has downtime? FU… If you count the supposedly inefficient time the group spends holding their actions a bit for a warrior to get and lock agro, it usually equates to the gay time hybrids spend saying they gotta med or the DPS they give up while casting said spells, healing themselves etc…

So, why go through the same shit you are going to go through with the warrior with an inferior meatshield? Only reasons I see is because you are incapable of working with a warrior and refuse to put MIND into the game instead of have the lazy ass hybrid simply lock agro with a spell. So please do not think its you… most of the time is them.

My last words Warriors life rocks thanks.. my 2cp

[Aveen]

Funny Gunrack, there is a post in the PoP section of the cleric boards that you should read. (http://eqcleric.gameglow.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=15231)
I counted all of 3 people who prefered warriors to tank thats out of 38 replys.

Also I think you're a little underqualified yet to fully evaluate the problems warriors have in pop. Earlier on this board you said you were level 12. All the classes rock at level 12.

[Hussar]

If you don't like your class, quit or make another char

That is one of the stupidest things I've heard. Warriors are broken, and should be fixed. How are they supposed to know we're broken if we don't say anything? We have to have threads like this, feedbacks and emails sent. Though I personally don't believe they are going to change anything, except maybe a minor gimmick that costs aa. Yes, their message sounds like it should include warriors, but I really doubt it does.

[Crist0]

To the people saying we should send feedbacks and let them know...


WHERE THE FUCK HAVE YOU BEEN?

Jesus people, not like this hasnt been beaten to death across 2/3 of the class boards out there, and a lot of us DID do the daily feedbacks for a long damn time.

I quit with the feedbacks after several months of it. When they're getting that sort of reaction from that many people, and STILL can't make the time to try to communicate with the warrior class..it becomes obvious they are purposefully ignoring us.

[Boofus]

I think those Warrior /feedbacks end up in the great void.

Of course, unless its somthing very important like a door that needs fixing in East Freeport.

[Hussar]

Actually, I sent a feedback about a door. For two reasons... one, I wanted to check if feedbacks from warriors are sent to the trash immediately, and two... ST doors annoy the hell out of me. Why must one side close before the other, thus if you click it again, the open side closes and the closed side opens. You have to wait for the damn things to close on their own on both sides before you can open properly again. I swear, those doors drive me beyond insane =\

[Eoden]

Talk to these other classes, make them work their agro control to help you!

I dont think anyone here doesnt believe that a warrior can still be an effective tank, the point is not that it can't be done with a warrior but that with a knight is can be done faster and more efficiently which leads to less chance of a wipe, less downtime and more XP.

As a chanter with an SK pulling and tanking I can slow on inc which means the cleric never has to heal a tank who is tanking an unslowed mob. Consider that the SK also performs the role of FD puller, snarer and pumps mana into the group with zeefers (100 mana/100hp group tap every 2 mins) which works out to an additional 5mana/tick for the casters. Now the warrior is looking like a pretty poor choice of tank.

When I play my warrior (and am fortunate enough to get a group before someone starts begging me to log to my chanter because they need a slower) it is hard work for me to XP grind. I dont have great gear, huge HPs or high DPS though I do have an agro proc on my weapon which is an absolute god send ( <3 epic 2hs ). The gripe here is why should I have to have the concentration of a stone, and a group who has to time their spells, use FD/evade/jolt so as not to pull the mob off me so that I can play my part in an XP group when a knight can cast a couple of spells and have agro locked down for the whole fight, and the whole group can just leave auto attack on while they go make cups of coffee and the cleric presses the CH button between wine coolers ?

Love my warrior and Im not gonna quit playing him, but I sure am happy I have a 'group friendly' alt to log on after an hour of LFG.

[proteg]

In response to the first post, here the quote regarding tanking fixes: "We're paying particular attention to the avoidance-focused classes such as the monk, to be sure things end up where they should. "

Stop your whining, they said they were going to focus on Monks and not warriors. Whine to Verant, until we do they will continue to ignore us. Spam them with email and give us the address to do the same.

[proteg]

In response to the mention of the thread of Clerics preferring Pallys to MT, well they keep saying they like pallys cause they can heal. Sorry but if a Cleric want a Tank that can heal I dont want to group with that cleric at all. Good riddance to them.

Other clerics who dont have a preference are saying that anyone can pulll agro...

[Tarlor]

either tribunal is weird (nothing unusual), or the proactive omg i never get groups people are looking for drama.

i go pickup groups exclusively, and the only competition i get is from other warriors.

edit: are knights better choices? definitely. i realize some warriors don't have great equip and struggle with aggro, but damn...the doomsday garbage is repetitive. when was the last time a group told you to piss off cuz a knight was lfg?

oh right, sorry, norrath and beyond is out to get you.

[Wilhelmm_Lanys]

new board, same old clueless trolls. So, let's get into it:

"either tribunal is weird (nothing unusual), or the proactive omg i never get groups people are looking for drama.

i go pickup groups exclusively, and the only competition i get is from other warriors.

edit: are knights better choices? definitely. i realize some warriors don't have great equip and struggle with aggro, but damn...the doomsday garbage is repetitive. when was the last time a group told you to piss off cuz a knight was lfg?

oh right, sorry, norrath and beyond is out to get you."

The above would be #3 on the Typical Knights Whine to Suppress Warrior Improvement. I'm almost disappointed you didn't resolve to "Well, warriors have /disc defensive and can tank %1 of game content better than knights" or "Remember how bad hybrids used to be in RoK" and complete the entire trio of popular knight whines. How non-hybrids still manage to resolve to these is beyond me.

Anyways, onto your actual post. First off, you say the proactive people are doing nothing but searching for drama. Then, you come here and post an apparently utterly baseless argument, stock-full of drama. "I'll take hypocricy for 200, Alex.

Next, gear is not the solution to the problem. First, it's extremely unequal. Second, gear (you're talking about Enraging Blow here obviously) doesn't resolve the problem of agro generation, especially without the ability to swing or do damage (a.k.a. on mezzed mobs).

Third, yes, this is certainly not a doomsday warning. Then again, neither was the knight complaints to fix them and nerf warriors. Neither was the current complaints about how broken Rathe was, or how easy elemental min-bosses were. Yet, all these things were fixed.

Fourth, no one ever tells anyone "piss off, there's a knight lfg." Those who do are arrogant pricks. That is a poor indication of anything though, they can just simply take the knight and say, "sorry, the position has been filled"


Now, onto the rest of the post. At this point, anyone who still doesn't realize that warrior agro is extremely handicapped is either not playing Everquest, not playing a warrior, or still living in the RoK/SoV times. There is simply no way of avoiding this anymore, it needs to be fixed, along with other aspects of the class. Unfortunately, it does indeed seem like the devs don't care. I would advise those who haven't to send petitions and letters. Hell, even resolve to the whining from monkly business or the mage forums if that works. I've already sent countless petitions to the development staff. Gonna send one out to Absor personally (thanks for e-mail link). Maybe after enough letter they will consider implementing some changes. It's doubtfull, but we can always hope.

[Zandorf]

Although I am not an avid poster I do agree with 99% of you, but there is one thing I disagree with. Most of the guys saying taunt is fine are in high end guilds dual wielding 2 eb weapons or weapons with better taunt procs(not saying anything is wrong with that), on my server rant board warriors in the highest guild say its fine. Thing is they don't have to sit lfg hours on end, they have groups waiting for them, they have great gear etc.

There is a problem, I have played my warrior exclusively for over 3 years now and I too can see a problem. It drove me to quit eq all together and just this week I decided to come back after a few months off. Anyhow just my 2cp worth.

Zandorf Turkeyslayer
65 Overlord
Poison arrow
Brell Serilis

[Five]

As much as I keep telling myself I won't reply in this thread, I want to point out a few things.

1. I never, ever (did you see that, I said NEVER) have to LFG.
2. I have never, ever, ever had to LFG.
3. I am warrior of an unholy quintette (cleric, rogue, enchanter).
4. I can pull aggro off the enchanter most days.
5. I can pull aggro off the rogue because he is smart and evades.

So, you might be thinking to yourself, 'Well there ya go, Five just basically said she's got no real problems with the class so she's just bi'ching'. You might be right unless you consider...

I am not the typical EQ warrior.

My resource of friends are not typical.

People, take off the blinders and move away from the mirror. It's not the window. Go look out the window beyond your own small universe and consider for a moment that there are other people having a great deal of trouble.

How many guilds are losing MT's because they are bored sitting around for hours LFG?

How many guilds turned away warriors because they didn't have XXX amount of AA?

You cannot have one without the other. You cannot make a class whose sole purpose in life is to handle one single encounter scenario and yet make them completely undesireable on the group level.

Didn't SOE learn that lesson from Necros? They learned from Druids but it took what? 3 yrs?

Taunt doesn't need to be "fixed". Taunt needs to be reworked completely. The percentage of hate, the time it lasts, the recycle factor - all need to be addressed. Taunt needs to have a much higher success check - in the neighborhood of 85%. Taunt needs to not only put the warrior highest on the hate list but needs to *deaggro* and drop everyone else by 1 slot on the list.

Yes, I know some folks would like some new flashy AA and I'm sure SOE would be more than happy to justify Dev hourly wages against potentionally prolonging income from players fees. But bottom line is, a classwise, non-level-limiting solution needs to be put in place.

Agreement amongst warriors goes a long way to being either listened to or ignored.

[Zandorf]

Thats the whole point alot are making from what I see, taunt all together needs to be reworked. I for one know others have my problem, I know other classes have problems too.

To me warriors should have weapon/defensive/offensive skills cap alittle higher then everyone else. In my definition I thought a warrior was a living breathing monster of combat, so why not make us alittle more like that? Problem is warriors have always been used to "balance" against and thus left behind.

The lfg issue will never go away, but you have to admit if your one of the people that sit for hours literally(as I have) hoping for a group and never get one it can be frustrating. Many times I try to start a group with people lfg and anytime I ask people the answer is always "no". now I don't know if they said that because I'm a warrior or if because they don't want to(can't read minds!).

I too can pull aggro from anyone in game, but that depends if taunt succeds, which is another arguement in whole heh.

In ending, I love my warrior. If it weren't for him I would have been done with EQ long ago and never looked back, but theres something about being able to take a beating like no ones business that I like. Lets face it, we are warriors, masters of combat. A quote I once saw on steelwarrior when I first found about about it...

"warrior isn't a class, its an attitude"

I try to live by those words.

Zandorf Turkeyslayer
65 Overlord
Poison Arrow
Brell Serilis

[Glatius2]

Stop your whining, they said they were going to focus on Monks and not warriors.

1. Your definition of whining is my definition of observing the facts and commenting on the negative reality they reveal.

2. If you constantly comment on this negative reality SOE may still ignore the situation and do nothing. If you stop commenting it's certain they will ignore it.

3. If you don't like what you read, don't read it. Having people constantly pissing and moaning about how they don't like the 'whining' accomplishes nothing. You disagree? Fine, disagree. You don't want to participate? Fine, don't participate. But you don't get to decide what is and isn't valid commentary and who can and can't speak up.

[wraq]

What would be a good solution. I'm not sure why we do not get something more in line with the way casters get spells. Why not give us a better taunt ability (not AA, not dicipline) for level obtained. All the casters get upgrades to spells to help them land and those are not AA's or disciplines that take 30 minutes to regen, why not a taunt upgrade (oh...and not a whole damn area taunt but i guess that goes under the AA part)? Just an idea...

[Wilhelmm_Lanys]

there were a couple of good ideas mentioned for how to address the warrior agro issues. Here were some of the better ones, in my opinion:
- Add agro component to kick/bash. Give it say 50 or something like that hate points
- (this one I think is the best) An additional taunt button, call it "agro" button or sometihng. 30 second refresh, give an instant 400 or 500 points of agro, which equals about 4 or 5 jumps on the agro list
- Bigger agro component on arrows/ranged attack

I think a combination of a few of these, and on a personal note, especially the 2nd idea would be a HUGE step to improving warrior agro abilities without nerfing hybrid agro or making agro genration trivial

[Aveen]

I like the idea of updating kick/bash. There really isn't a lot of point in using kick unless the mob is running away because you have a chance to stun. It would be nice it if either did a little more damage a little more often, or gave like +100 to your hate list number.

I'm not sure about bash since I am a small race warrior and can only bash with a shield. But since they are on the same timer, I think it should work about the same once kick can stun.

I don't think a second agro button would be necessary. However, for warriors only, I think something like the monk progression though kicks should be done with taunt.
At such and such a level it is just taunt, then at such and such a level you get flying taunt, etc. Just like monks get kick, eagle kick/tail rake, etc. Some of that stuff isn't on the same timer (some is) so they can can do combo kicks.

Something like this would serve two purposes. The first would be having something to look forward to in the 40's. The second would be to give us a little more control over the agro we generate. Cause any monky with an index finger can press taunt repeatedly waiting for the rng to kick in.

[Glatius2]

Has anyone else considered the fact that taunt never really improves as you go through the game? It takes the same amount of time to refresh at level 10 as it does at level 65. It's about as effective against the mobs you're fighting at level 10 as it is at level 65. While everyone elses nukes, stuns, dots, and so forth, all become more powerful, more effecitve, take less time to cast, and so on, taunt stays exactly the same.

Why doesn't the refresh time on the taunt button go down as you level? Why must it be set in stone as a 6 second refresh? Why not 4 or 3 seconds instead as you reach a certain level? If we're going to be required to rely on taunt, shouldn't taunt get better? Every other class gets better with spells as they level. Taunt is the closest thing to a spell under our control that we're allowed, yet it never improves. Why?

[Brutul]

Originally posted by Splaktar
I'm surprised that Brutal has managed to ignore this thread :P (sans a /yawn).

Hehe, this thread has been going on for at least a year now, just under a few different subject headers. I don't really read it, it's the same thing over and over and over again. Personally I don't think it serves any purpose, which is why I occaisionally get irritated with seeing it every day and make a "STFU crybabies" style post.

I play a warrior every day, several hours a day. I still have fun. I have no desire to make another class. I know there are some imbalances in the exp group game. I want them to be fixed. I don't want to read a bunch of repetitive whining every day on my favorite message board.

I recently started up a new warrior that is now level 55 (no powerleveling). When I hit my 40s I couldn't solo effectively anymore and had a very hard time finding groups(more because of the server population than because I'm a warrior), so I leveled up a cleric to 2-box with him.

If you really believe that warriors are not viable tanks in all situations or that they are not fun to play anymore, well...I just have to disagree with you, and no one can say it's because I don't have experience playing these un-fun warriors. I have spent more time playing warriors than the vast majority of the people in everquest. If you believe that warriors "can't" get pick-up groups, all I can say is that has not been my experience. I get tells almost nightly to join groups, although that is partly because I am a tank+healer now heh.

What is my point? I don't know. I would like warriors to have some kind of reliable way to get initial aggro in exp groups. I seriously doubt repetitive whining on this board is going to get it changed. I don't want this board to turn into a whine forum like MB, so I'll continue to post the occaisonal "STFU crybabies" when I think it's getting out of hand. Nobody has to listen to me :D.

[Shikarii]

Hmmm...

Originally posted by Aveen
I like the idea of updating kick/bash. There really isn't a lot of point in using kick unless the mob is running away because you have a chance to stun. It would be nice it if either did a little more damage a little more often, or gave like +100 to your hate list number.
.....i'm lost. no sense in kicking? oh okay, let's lose more of our already miserable DPS because there's no sense in kicking unless the critter is running away.

I'm not sure about bash since I am a small race warrior and can only bash with a shield. But since they are on the same timer, I think it should work about the same once kick can stun.
.....i dunno where you went there. making bash and kick on seperate timers so you can kick and bash simultaneously? or make the chance to bash and stun the same as kick and stun? or maybe just tying a shield to your boot?

I don't think a second agro button would be necessary. However, for warriors only, I think something like the monk progression though kicks should be done with taunt.
At such and such a level it is just taunt, then at such and such a level you get flying taunt, etc. Just like monks get kick, eagle kick/tail rake, etc. Some of that stuff isn't on the same timer (some is) so they can can do combo kicks.
Kick is fine. We're not gracious magical pajama wearing nancys. we're warriors with the lead filled boot. let's just keep kick as a kick resembling kicking a steel toe boot through a wall. powerful and awfully devastating without any of the lights and buzzers.

Something like this would serve two purposes. The first would be having something to look forward to in the 40's. The second would be to give us a little more control over the agro we generate. Cause any monky with an index finger can press taunt repeatedly waiting for the rng to kick in.
Here's an idea...JUST FIX TAUNT PERIOD MMKAY? No need of this extra mumbo jumbo when a total revamp and reassociation of hateX(x_var)x pressing_taunt=aggro as a solid and true number with at LEAST an 85% chance of SUCCESS...what to look forward to in your 40's? 50's. What to look forward in your 50's? 60. There's no puzzles or lightshows going to go off at any time for the warrior class. Just an awfully pathetic line of disciplines that 8 out of 10 are FUCKING USELESS AND NOTHING BUT EYE CANDY and the AA route that is anyhting but Mediocre at best; maybe a bit better for talking shit on messageboard about how many hit points you got.

It's the dead horse syndrome. As soon as the head assclown decides that "hey the warriors have been complaining about this since, well shit, KUNARK ERA; maybe they have a clue"....which by the looks of things they're too busy laughing at the warrior class from behind their favourite_class_GM_toon they use as benchmarks to MAKE THEIR PUSSY HYBRID CLASSES MORE VERSATILE.

[Brutul]

slam/kick actually significantly reduces the damage you take on mobs that you can actually stun with it. Go to the arena and stand toe to toe with a friend and hit auto attack.

Then do it again hitting slam every time it pops up.

There is a significant difference in your health at the end of the fight if you use slam. And if nothing else it's free damage.

[Crist0]

Which was already covered by glatius(much cooler head than mine, by far):


If you constantly comment on this negative reality SOE may still ignore the situation and do nothing. If you stop commenting it's certain they will ignore it.


It's been proven over...and over....and over...and over again that the dev team only listens to players when there is a large amount of people complaining.

[Aveen]

quote:I don't think a second agro button would be necessary. However, for warriors only, I think something like the monk progression though kicks should be done with taunt.
At such and such a level it is just taunt, then at such and such a level you get flying taunt, etc. Just like monks get kick, eagle kick/tail rake, etc. Some of that stuff isn't on the same timer (some is) so they can can do combo kicks.
Kick is fine. We're not gracious magical pajama wearing nancys. we're warriors with the lead filled boot. let's just keep kick as a kick resembling kicking a steel toe boot through a wall. powerful and awfully devastating without any of the lights and buzzers.


I am pretty sure you missed the point I was making. It didn't have anything to do with kick here, or monks for that matter. Somone had mentioned that taunt should be reworked so it gets upgraded like other classes skills, I compared a way that this could be done in comparison to the way monks get upgrades in kicks an punches. I was not suggesting that our kick should turn into something like what monks get. I was mearly expanding on an idea for revamping taunt mentioned earlier in this thread.

As for kick, it refreshes about every 6 seconds, that average hit is about 15. Thats just over 2dps, thats if it landed every single time. 2 dps really isn't doing much. I use kick, there isn't any reason to not use it. I think it needs some upgrades. Not a bigger fancier kick like the monks get, because then we would be monks. But perhaps, as Glatius mentioned with taunt, as your level increases the timer refresh gets smaller. A bigger chance to stun would be nice as well. With the skill maxed, it doesn't land all that much.

As you said, Shikarii, were kicking something with a steel toed boot. It should hurt, it should stun, it should make our oppenent mad as hell, and we should be able to do it more often than we can.

Do I expect things to change, hell no. I lost all faith in them when they said warriors were happy at the October Fan Fair.

My origional post was nothing more than a rant cause I was and still am pissed off at the devs. I'll beat this horse until the cows come home, just as Glatius and a lot of other warriors have on the paladin board. After all, I need something to do while I'm lfg now don't I?

[Shikarii]

hehe i forgot to mention my tirade wasn't directed solely at you; my apologies.

it was just a gripe in light of a lot of things you brought up that makes sense where it need simprovement yet VI turns away

[Meety Da'Shield]

Well yes i also get pissed when a group turns me down for a Pally or Sk 5 lvls under me to tank in PoD or something yes got turned down for a 47 Pally to tank BECAUSE HE HAS STUNS.

BAH we need a modified taunt button where there is a comand you cna activate it so it works 90% of the time and another were you can turn it off so no accidental Taunts on raids.

[Smohg]

Wow Meety - you want the developers to play the game for you too?

[wraq]

I like the taunt progression idea really. Seems the simplest and something that they already do for all/most other classes. Maybe something like the Assasinate for a Rouge.

I do not see how this is really whining. I mean if Verant is going to say they know there is an issue then why not try to give them ideas for how to fix or atleast push them to fix it themselves if they do not like the ideas. What happened to the day that Verant wanted classes to give feedback? I like my warrior and have only played a warrior for the last 3 years. I will not change because of the problems nor will I 2 box a cleric. If they do not want feedback (whining) then they should just do away with that link on the web and the other in game. To put up the links and then say do not really give us feedback unless it's good is just ...well u know. Anyway's, off to send a few more useless emails to the box of no entry...

[Aveen]

No hard feelings then Shik, it just seemd you missunderstood me a tad.

[Beornegar]

I'd like to see both kick and slam do some real damage. I don't use kick much, but when I bash I tend to do really low damage(highest non critical hit is about 20, highest critical is about 40, and usually do much less on average). The problem I have is that I have not seen a significant increase in how damaging my slams are in about 33 levels now. I really wish they'd add damage to the extra attacks in increments as you level (I'm assuming that they already do this to some degree, I'd just like it to be more noticeable). I'm not asking for a 75 damage flying kick or anything, I'm just sick of seeing crits for 18 dmg :). If they did this they could then make kick/slam have a certain degree of added aggro based on how much damage the blow does, and whether or not it stuns the mob. That alone would be a big help, although just fixing taunt would be even better. :) Oh, and in response to what Aveen said about the devs at the fan faire saying the warrior community is happy with the class; I suppose if the sample of warriors I talked to about the class were warriors like Furor, I'd come to the same conclusion. :) They just seem to have tunnel vision and only talk to the "uber" warriors who don't have most of the problems most of the rest of us are seeing. But based on that, I too have lost what little faith I had in the devs.

Beo

[Wilhelmm_Lanys]

I realise feedback and the like often does nothing. But, here goes anyways. I sent this one to absor himself also. I think if the rest of the people here have not done so, they should. Enough e-mails will illicit a response. if you don't feel like writing one out yourself, feel free to copy my own and replace name with your own and edit as you wish:

"Dear Absor and other game developers

Hello. My name is Wilhelmm D'Averam. I currently play a warrior in one of the higher-ranking guilds on the Lanys T'Vyl Server, and I write to you once again (I sent in a letter right before the announcement that melee classes are being looked at).

Well, it has been nearly 4 months since the promise that melees were to be examined. That day brought hopes for the warrior community not seen in years, perhaps of developers finally willing to address our agro issues. At that point, warriors and monks stood as arguably the most broken XPing classes in Everquest. Warriors could not compete with the agro generation abilities of paladins and shadowknights, or the damage, HP and agro abilities of charmed pets. Monks, well, with their mitigation nerfs and the ease of singlue-pulling in PoP had their rolls diminished.

Since then, monks have received an un-nerf to their mitigation. Don't get me wrong, I do not oppose this. However, many warriors were looking forward to this promise, thinking it would bring something in the way of upgrades to our class. Unfortunately, it has not. In fact, truth be told, negating the addition of physical enhancements to our SoL aa's and a 15-point increase in the dodge skill, warriors have not had a major boost since prior to the Shadows of Luclin expansion.

At this point, it is nearly impossible to argue that warrior agro is substantial to fulfilling their tasks. The hard-hitting mobs in Planes of Power require instant agro generation more than ever. Yet, with the introduction of PoP, warriors received no boosts in generation to stay on par with the increasing necessity for taunt. Moving forward to current times, warriors are still at a massive disadvantage in the XP tanking field as compared to knights. Any superiority in defensive and offensive capabilities that warriors held over knights vanished with the coming of SoL, when 2-hand weapons became far superior to duel-wielding for damage output, knights were put on the warrior offensive tables and were given increased defensive skill caps, bridging the defensive gap between them.

Our lone superiorities remain in the narrow advantages we have in damage output, avoidance skill caps, which sum up to a very minor difference in damage taken, and hit-points. THe damage output aspect is easily negated considering the knghts' massive agro abilities help raise a group's damage potential far higher than the extra damage brought by a warrior. Even the HP gap between knights and warriors is closing with the introduction of all/all gear, the very minor HP differences between warrior and knights, the removal of sta to HP ratio once different between the two, and the similar HP-boosting AA available to both classes. These differences are pitted against the spell-casting abilities and far superior agro abilities of knights in both instant agro generation and agro maintenance.

With the heightened importance of agro in XP groups, the balance of power shifts heavily in favor of knights. Simply put, warriors ahve very little chance of performing even the fundamental necessities in a group, pulling agro off the slower (a class virtually irreplaceable in PoP exp groups), or puling agro off the healer. Considering how hard mobs hit, this inability to draw agro often leads to detrimental results. While these problems don't occur on every pull, they occur frequently enough to make warriors a far more questionable choice for tanking in groups. Even with the addition of Enraging Blow weapons, the problem remains, particularly because these weapons are not available to many warriors, and because they simply do not solve the problem. EB weapons leave warriors heavily reliant on a random number generator dictating their procs to do their jobs, and even an Enraging blow proc occasionally fails to do the trick in pulling agro off another class.

From first-hand accounts, and testimonials by knights themselves, these problems simply do not exist with knights. Even lower-level spells that do not require much mana expenditure provide significant amounts of agro, allowing knighs to maintain agro effectively off slowers, healers and damage dealers.

Warriors are not alone in their concerns. Search through archives on the ranger, shaman, and enchanter forums and you may find similar comments about warrior agro abilities. even popular message boards, such as the safehouse or the Fires of Heaven message boards make constant references to warrior agro issues. For an example, you may examine the cleric message boards in this post: http://eqcleric.gameglow.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=15231
here, in a survey conducted asking clerics which tanks they prefered, out of 38+ replys, only 3 people prefered warriors over hybrids, while most of the other posters prefer a hybrid tank.

One would be hard-pressed to claim the agro issues don't exist. While some argue that improving warrior agro will be extremely damaging to knights, and make EQ trivial, I feel by-partite solutions do exist. Fellow warriors on the new Steel Warriors message boards, located here:
http://steelwarrior.xwarzone.com/index.php?
have mentioned numerous interesting solutions to fixing the agro issues. Some suggest putting higher agro component on kick and bash, others mention putting greater agro on ranged attacks, or improving taunt itself.

My personal opinion, again heavily discussed on the steel warrior boards is to either put a hate increase component on taunt itself, where each taunt adds say 100-200 hate points, irregardless if successful or unsuccessful in taunting the mob onto the warrior. However, I feel a better solution is to add an additional taunt macro. The macro would have a 30-40 second reuse time, and would instantly give the warrior anywhere between 400-600 hate points. Coupled with the regular taunt, and used correctly would allow warriors to draw agro off a slower or early healer whenever necessary. However, the long reuse time forces warriors to make a careful decision about when to use it; whether to use it on a slow, or an early heal, or multiple mezzes. In my opinion, this solution would create balance for warrior agro without trivializing the game.

While far less important than agro, mitigation is another aspect in need of some consideration. There are many specialist classes in the game; cleric, enchanter, shaman, etc. that excel over other classes at their abilities, healing, mezzing and slowing respectively. Warriors supposedly are the specialist mitigation class. However, our mitigation abilities, aside from /disc defensive, are exactly the same as those of knights and other classes. There are two possible solutions here in my opinion, either give warriors an innate 5% boost to damage mitigation, or give a 12-15% boost, but remove /disc defensive entirely. I don't know if the second option is feasible considering how hard certain boss mobs in Planes of Power hit, but it is certainly a possibility I think.

In summary, in order to restore some balance to the warrior class, I feel an additional taunt button for agro generation and a small innate mitigation boost should be added. Obviously, there are other solutions out there that would have success as well, but there is no denying that something should be done.

There is another aspect to this letter however. Warriors hope for some changes to be put into effect, but the reality is these changes may not occur. If nothing else, we would at least like to know where we stand. From visiting other boards, I have noticed on several occasions, developers posting there to discuss the status of certain aspects of the game. In my history at Steel Warrior, spanning nearly 2 years, I have yet to see a developer post anything on our forums. Even if to say that the developers feel the warrior class is perfectly balanced and require and have no intentions of being upgraded in the near future, this would be far better than silence. This way, at least those that remain with their class, holding out for a possible upgrade can understand the truth and either switch to another class or go on about their business and make further decisions.

The state of warriors in everquest is currently extremely fragile. Over the course of 2 years, we have gone from the benchmark melee class, and the basis of upgrading/nerfing others, to arguably the most hurting class in Everquest. We have basically been denoted to accept a massively reduced importance in experience groups, with importance solely in the field of raiding because of our disc. Raiding, however, is not the cornerstone of EQ, and massive amounts of experience is required to reach the raiding level. Warriors testify to cancel their accounts on a daily basis, and more will likely continue to do so under current conditions.

I realize developers currently have to fix issues with plane of time and the like. However, after nearly 4 months of what has thusfar proven to be an empty promise, and nearly 18 months without any significant changes or status reports about our class, many feel we at least deserve some kind of recognition of the problem, or at least a status report. Many grow frustrated, an emotion common among posters on the steel warrior boards. Our class has a single virtue, to stand between the mob and everyone else. Over the course of the last 18 months however, this ability has solely diminshed to a sense where in experience groups, we the specialists are an inferior tank than a non-specialist hybrid. Our demands if you will are simple, just let us do our jobs and tank.

Thanks in advance for your time
Wilhelmm D'Averam
Overlord of Lanys T'Vyl"

We can always hope right.

[Boofus]

just pulled this off eq live..

We are going to look at improving the damage capabilities of melee classes, as they've fallen behind their magic-using counterparts at the very high end of the game. Some options being considered are:

Improve melee damage-increasing disciplines
Improve Planes of Power melee weapons

[Shikarii]

Wilhelmm, hat's off to ya man. Beers on me for composing that.

[Aveen]

/cheer Wilhelmm
Well said.

[Wilhelmm_Lanys]

thanks all. Although I fear its all in vain if others don't send out similar message (or as indicated in my post, the same one if you wish, just edit name).

[jaxxym]

Those of you who have given up on keeping this issue in front of the developers (aka we already tried that and it didn't work) - fine - no need to continue reading this post.

Those of you who want to do *something*, keep spamming SOE on this issue. The truth is that we have no idea what is going on internally with the developers, and you never know when one or more might finally look up and say - OMG there's a problem with warrior aggro! Duh!

This is a simple issue to sum up: holding aggro for a warrior is totally dependent on the RNG (procs/taunt) , for pally/SK it is not (spells). This leads to pallies/SKs being consistently and vastly preferred over war's in 60+ planar xp groups, and in so doing results in a severe class imbalance for tanks.

Put it this way - sending e-mail to SOE can hardly hurt, can it? Here is what I am sending to SOE just in case cut 'n' paste has been your hurdle to sending this message...(sending to eqmail@soe.sony.com - please post any other appropriate e-mail addresses that you might have)

**********

I play a level 62 warrior on Cazic-Thule server, and it is becoming increasingly clear that at 60+, especially in PoV/PoS, etc, warriors as a class are suffering significantly in comparison to the hybrid tank classes (pally/SK), when it comes to MTing for an xp group, leading to a serious class imbalance problem.

The central issue is that warriors are almost totally dependent on the RNG to generate aggro (procs, successful taunt), while pallies and SKs have a near-guaranteed way to get to the top of the hate list (spells) - no RNG for them. The practical effect of this is that SKs/pallies are vastly preferred by groups looking for the fastest, most efficient use of their time when it comes to xping (and there are not many gruops to which this does not apply in tier 2+ planes). And the much-vaunted AC/HP advantage of the warrior is really very slight (i.e. negligible) at high levels especially considering how hard PoP mobs hit - often, the HP advantage I have over a comparable pally is less that one hit's worth of dmg from one of these mobs - and that's after I spend all of my AA's on defensive skills!

There was an excellent thread on the steel warrior that apparently aged out, but a new thread there includes the following post excerpt, which is dead on target:

"Warrior gets in group, every slow the mob makes a run for the chanter/shaman/whatever. Cleric goes oom a lot because she has to heal many people. Paladin joins up after warrior leaves, he's 3 levels lower (61)...yet cleric is FoM almost all the time because she only has to heal one person. Thinking objectively, who would you want to be the tank, the higher level one where there's lots of downtime and can't hold agro, or the lower level hybrid who can keep all healing on just him? Warriors, the best tank in the game, are nothing without being to hold [near]guaranteed agro, and a good amount of people are spoiled on hybrid tanks and not having to hold back their agro generation. In exp groups, they want to kill as fast as possible...warrior tanks are a liability there, I'm very sorry to say."

Interestingly, the clerics see things exactly the same way. From CLERICS posting on EQCleric forums, excerpted posts:

***********

My opinion as cleric is : maybe warrior has more HP and AC, but paladin have wonderfull heal spell, i prefer 100 times a pal to a warrior for this. With a paladin I am almost sure we will live and the group will work good. Paladin have stun too, rezz that can help during a wipe, they can pacifiy pull not badly etc ... Paladin is the first MT i search for when i look for a tank in a group.

***********

My preferences go pally - SK - warrior, modified by gear, AA and skills. The beefier hp of a warrior are totally and completely useless if the mob doesn't stay on the warrior or if mob has to be at 50h before anybody dares to slow it.

***********

i seriously think that the WAR is THE class who need a fix . even before clerics.

***********

If we're talking about comparable gear/levels, when it comes to exp groups, I would rather have a paladin or SK tanking for me...hands down. Warriors have great AC and hitpoints, but if they lose agro for any reason, they suck at getting it back...that's not a slam on the people playing the class, that's simply bad class design overall. Now, if SOE ever fixes warriors and brings their taunting and agro generating abilities in line with knights, I may think differently, but for now I'd take a knight over a warrior every time.

************

Enough already. I have 3 accounts on EQ and all the expansions. I pay 6 months in advance which gives SOE nice visibility in terms of revenue stream. I am the type of customer that I would have thought SOE would consider 'good'.

I would like a straight answer as to whether, and/or when, the developers are going to take this issue seriously and plan to address it - if so, when?? Everybody playing anything close to a high end game acknowledges that warriors are broken, but I have yet to hear this officially acknowledged by SOE (the latest dev corner notes that 'melee damage-increasing disciplines' improvements are being look at - this does nothing to address broken warriors). And frankly all the warriors I know are sick and tired of hearing the old 'we are looking at it' excuse.

Tell those of us who love playing a pure warrior if you see this aggro-as-compared-to-hybrids issue as a serious class balance problem and if so what you are going to do to fix it, because otherwise, out frustration *will* walk us out of the SOE door along with our dollars - into what is fast becoming a *very* competitive online gaming marketplace. Wouldn't you really rather lock in our contribution to your revenue stream by addressing what all agree is a real issue and at the same time achieving your stated intention to "bring more fun back into the game"?

[Frax]

Improved 'taunt' would trivalize an already fairly trivial process. It would make xp groups even more boring than they currently are. Agro control is not brain surgery, it's relatively simple on any mob that doesn't memwipe it self in some manner, as long as players pay attention.

I've thought about this stuff and i'm not really sure what a viable 'fun' and 'useful' upgrade for warriors would be.

[Glatius2]

Improved 'taunt' would trivalize an already fairly trivial process.

And yet the fact that our two competing tank classes have trivial aggro control is not in any way shape or form out of whack? How exactly is it wrong for Warriors but okay for Paladins and Shadow Knights to have trivial aggro control?

[Frax]

If anything (and shadowknights and paladins will hate me for this) those abilities need to be toned down. If taunt *always* worked there would be minor risk to anyone unless the tank died. We don't need more instant 100% agroing abilities for anyone, much less the single class that is built to tank uber mobs.

[Brutul]

Glatius,

You wake up on the wrong side of the rock this morning? Between this and the flag thread I'm afraid you're gonna pop a blood vessel.

[Glatius2]

So I'm feeling a little fiesty. PoN hasn't been giving me any good arguements recently so the SteelWarrior is picking up the slack. :P

Besides, I firmly believe that one of the two options needs to happen, either Warriors need better aggro control or Knights need worse aggro control. There isn't much anyone can say that will convince me otherwise. The difference between the two is too extreme given all other factors.

And I also firmly believe that opening up more of the PoP zones will over all be a good thing, something that should have been there from the beginning. Closing down a major portion of an expansion to the majority of your player base is just bad business sense.

[Aveen]

I agree with glatius.

How is it less wrong for a different tanking class besides warriors to have trivial agro control?

total agro + good mitigation = bad
The class isn't supposed to matter. But I guess its ok for knights and we are just supposed to roll over and accept it.

[jaxxym]

/agree with Aveen and Glatius. The issue is not absolute in the sense of how good/poor war aggro control is; the issue is relative in the sense of how war aggro control compares to that of the hybrid tanks.

If they all suck, then no class is prefferred over another as tank in planar xps groups except based on AC/HP where war's have the (minimal) advantage. How to ever so slightly balance this advantage so that pallies/sks don't get screwed like they were before?

If all have near guaranteed aggro control, things are just too easy.

This is unfortunate, because the obvious conclusion is that for any one class to have near guaranteed aggro control is not a good thing, and there is no way I see SOE extending a bad idea to additional classes. Much more likely to rescind that capability via a nerf.

Which means the knights and sk's better be praying that SOE does not listen to nor address this particular warrior weakness.

[Boofus]

Heheh I saw that coming from Glatius :D :D :D :D

[Gnomb]

And in zones like tactics where regular mobs hit for 600+ the improved agro control wont matter ?
Dont get your hopes too high, in those zones knights are even more looked for because a chanter with resisted slows is a stain on the floor even faster.
Fortunately i dont have that much agro issues but having access to a non bazaar weaponry helps a lot.
On the other hand i can imagine how hard it must be as i have seen the situation when i do pickup groups with my cleric first hand sometimes.
Warriors with windblades trying to hold agro while the necro/druid merrily dot/cook the mob.
Try a playing a cleric and sit after that first Complete Heal and you know what i mean.
This is (almost) a non issue once enraging blow comes into play but without a proc its the same as hitting mobs with a decent ratio non proc weapon.

[Kaesorn]

/agree with Aveen, Gladius, jaxxym...(this is gonna get long after a while). It's not so much that hybrids have guaranteed agro...it is really hard to change that without completely and utterly destroying it. It's the relative difference between the two. The tanking ability sans defensive/evasive is already pretty negligent, why does the agro ability have a gap the size and depth of The Hole or 2 between Knights and Warriors?

Take small steps...a small tap/nudge down on hybrid spell agro...a small lift in agro for warriors...follow Kaizen...baby steps man....baby steps.

[Kaesorn]

Oh I just realized I got quoted...and not for anything bad for once. Woo!

[jaxxym]

OK, no question that I'll be blacklisted by the knights and SKs for this suggestions, but it seems to me that to bring their aggro-holding ability in line with that of warriors, their aggro-generation simply needs to be made to be as dependent on the RNG as a warrior's is. Make a resisted stun non-aggro generating - make the terror spell line succeed only randomly ("you're not terrorizing anyone"), at a frequency comparable to a proc, something like that. Just make all tank aggro *primarily* RNG-dependent. I know these 'workarounds' are half-assed, but at least they would begin to address the issue. I would not even mind if pallies and SKs had somewhat better overall ability in this area than warriors - but I would like to see it as a range with some overlap - so that a highly skilled warrior who has put a significant amount of effort into learning this critical aspect of his/her trade would be able to hold aggro better than some e-bay pally who barely grasps the concept.

I know this is a nerf, and I'm sorry SOE saw fit to do something so stupid as to give 2 classes near-guaranteed aggro control in the first place, but frankly in my view, the casters should *not* be free to slow, snare, dot, stun and nuke away to their hearts content in full confidence that there will be no consequences, and this is what that control permits.

Because it seems to me that there *should* be a significant element of risk to casting aggro-generating spells like these that should cause their users to have to use them wisely - and would cause groups to look for casters who have proven they know their business.

As it stands, tanks are near interchangable, as long as that tank is a pally or SK, and casters are too. This means that putting arduous effort into learning to play your class effectively brings little in the way of reward. What I am suggesting would make the whole damned thing more dependent on individual player competence and less dependent on the overpowering class abilities that let incompetent players off the hook.

This would make the xping process a bit more challenging, but I don't see anything wrong with that. In fact, I prefer things to be challenging - it forces us tanks (and everybody else) to develop our abilities to the max, to devise and use every trick in the book to keep mobs off of our casters and I think that makes one a better player.

Put it this way: when I put my LFG tag up and ooc, I want every group looking for a tank to race each other in getting a tell to me, not because I happen to play a certain class that they know can hold aggro no matter how lame the brain behind the keyboard, but because I've established a reputation for working my ass off to do whatever it takes to protect my casters and keep the group alive and xping. As it stands now, I can be the best goddamn warrior there ever was, and yet groups will choose some dumbass e-bay pally over me for high end xps groups based solely on the fact that all he needs to do is to throw a low level spell on the mob once in a while to keep them alive and raking in the xp.

Flame away....

[Kaesorn]

Slight problem on your suggestion...stuns and the terror line aren't the only thing hybrids use to gain agro. The SK and Ranger's snare lines, as well as the paladin's group heals give them a good amount of agro. Nerfing either one will nerf their "parent" classes on a lot of tactics they use such as agro kiting, since they use the exact same spells. Clerics will be stunning a lot more if they wouldn't get agro from it.

[Frax]

Originally posted by Kaesorn
Slight problem on your suggestion...stuns and the terror line aren't the only thing hybrids use to gain agro. The SK and Ranger's snare lines, as well as the paladin's group heals give them a good amount of agro. Nerfing either one will nerf their "parent" classes on a lot of tactics they use such as agro kiting, since they use the exact same spells. Clerics will be stunning a lot more if they wouldn't get agro from it.

Thats EXACTLY the reason warriors can't be given a huge upgrade in power.. it will change the dynamics of the game.

[jaxxym]

Kaesorn I realize that stuns/terror are not the only aggro generators that hybrids have at their disposal. But rangers being chosen over warriors as MTs in tier 2+ xps groups is not a problem, and so their spells are not relevant. ;-)

I am not trying to figure out how to get war's and hybrid tanks to exactly the same level - I am trying to figure out how best to dramatically reduce the current differential - to close the gap which leaves warrior's so disadvantaged - which is most severe in the case of pallies, and second most severe in the case of SKs.

Put it this way: just because we'll never see war/pally aggro balanced at 50/50, that's no reason not to figure out ways to change it from 90/10 to 70/30, or even 60/40.

Pallies low level stuns are the most egregious example. They generate a ton of hate for very little cost. I am suggesting simply that the hate go down or the cost (mana) go up. I don't care which - either will have the effect of making pallies more comparable to war's when it comes time to choose that MT.

[Kaesorn]

As am I, no problem there. I know that warriors shouldn't have the best agro. Tradeoffs must exist, or there is no balance. I was just making a statement in case someone forgot. That's all. I do know that changing snare and group heals will change too much workings to be healthy. Wasn't my intention, I'm sorry if that's how it sounded.

I made a suggestion on those paladin stuns that might work...it's in the other thread. There's also an idea on giving taunt a boost that's sorely needed. http://steelwarrior.xwarzone.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=605&perpage=15&pagenumber=3

Only solution I can find here is to remove the agro generated by stuns to which "mobs are immune" (I've stated this before, I believe). This forces Paladins to use their more mana expensive stuns (costing between 90 and 200mana, more or less), creating a natural downside to having a paladin that doesn't lower their effectiveness. If a mob is immune to the stun a paladin is using, why would he care if he was using it?

[Gnomb]

Kaesorn, removing agro from resisted stuns is a two-edged thing.
A lot of weaponry mid to high end warriors use have procs of this very kind.
Take Blackout for example i am using in offhand.
The proc is a low level sk spell that included a low level 0 second duration stun that is basically resisted everywhere in PoP.
Same for BBotE or SoD.

[Kaesorn]

Read again real quick...I said immune, not resisted. There's a difference. And Terrifying Darkness is in no way a SK spell...just sounds like one.

[Jedediah]

That'd pretty much kill my agro with the GBoS too....good thing we're killing in Ssra now, I can pick up a BF or HG