LDoN and the death of Class Balance [Archive]

Battleblade

10-18-2003, 08:02 AM

When LDoN was first released I started a thread that was intended to clearly state Tank balance issues in experiance groups
Knight/Warrior Class Balance (http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3093)

Since that time I've seen some pretty far reaching changes driven almost entirely by LDoN. Class Balance is irrelevent in this expansion IMO. This is not to say Knights and Warriors are balanced in this environment - they aren't. But often groups are just looking for another body and someone to get hit is desireable. It's a come-as-you-are slay-a-thon.

I wondered how other Warriors felt about this expansion.

Pickup groups are far more common than before and while Warriors are not real popular, we can get groups. Since LDoN pickup groups tend to be a grab bag, we can not expect to have anything except a mixed assortment of buffs. Being able to self-buff Major Shielding, Marvelous Visions, and a Damage Shield is actually sometimes useful.

The YKesha and Anger augments help warriors quite a bit in obtaining and holding aggro. Any Warrior that had aggro weapons and has been able to add these augments should be pretty happy with them. However every silver lining has a dark cloud -

A lot of classes are weilding Copper Hammer of Striking now and even augmenting it with Force of YKesha. While in some cases its because this gives them a good aggro weapon, and many more classes are tanking in this environment, Warriors do end up grouping with them. Aggro weapons and even augmented aggro weapons are more of a requirement when many more classes weild weapons that proc an aggro effect. Casual Warriors take note 8).

BB

Valeris

10-18-2003, 11:08 AM

Not sure if the LdoN environment was specifically designed to eliminate knight aggro as an effective means of controlling the mob or what, I've certainly noticed every tank having more difficulty peeling mobs off casters, very in two minds about this development, it reduces peoples reliance on single mob aggro lock but makes my job even more frustrating :p

Bunnie Burner

10-18-2003, 11:21 AM

Thanks to LDoN,
we still suck, but it's less obvious.

It brings out other problems though:

Paladins -
-have equal or higher hps vs warriors, thanks to ghetto groups.
-has a gigantic advantage in aggro
-has an insane advantage vs undead, which is more then 50% of the content.
-have self and group heals, diminishing external heals by a lot
-has root for parking adds or stopping runaways.

Shadowknights-
-some dungeons drastically need FD pulling, yay SKs
-they got snare, which is a definite need in all dungeons.
-lifetaps, dimishing external heals by a lot.
-lifetap/manatap, which helps a bit.
-more dps, which is always better.
-great aggro

Warriors-
-a tiny bit more hp, if we're in a buff solid group (cleric+shaman at least, we'de need to ask a generous paladin for bss though)
-a tiny advantage in mitigation, which is completely pulverised by sk's lifetaps and paladins heals.
-and... erm... that's it I think, the two above points are actually handicaps and not advantages.
- OH WAIT!... if we're in Hard adventure, and if it's a assassination adventure... THEN maybe we could be usefull on the boss... thanks to Defensive.
woowoo

Can we use warriors in LDoN missions? sure....

Should we use warriors in LDoN missions? ... why??... well if there's no SK or Paladin around, then.. sure..
Or if you're looking for a 6th member... might as well take a LFG warrior... remember, 6th member doesnt leech exp anymore!

Darkoan

10-18-2003, 11:36 AM

Paladins also provide nice pullers in LDoN because of Pacify. Once again, that utility that they claim they don't use comes into play.

Glatius2

10-18-2003, 12:05 PM

Are people really single pulling LDoN dungeon adventures? Because I have to be honest, every group I've been with that's won an LDoN adventure did it by pulling whatever happened to feel the need to come along (1-4 mobs typically) and dealing with it, often times by split tanking, root parking, pet tanking, occassionally mezzing, often times by Shaman slow/tanking.

While several of the adventures I've lost have been with groups that tried to single pull. I've seen a case or two where splitting a boss mob away from a group of trash mobs has been useful, but other than that it seems splitting mobs is far more likely to lead to failure, in my experience. But I'm not a LDoN expert, so enlighten me, is splitting all that useful?

Graal the Dorf

10-18-2003, 12:11 PM

Paladins also provide nice pullers in LDoN because of Pacify. Once again, that utility that they claim they don't use comes into play.

A paladin can't pacify any mob over level 55.

Partha

10-18-2003, 12:37 PM

Which only applies when the average level of the group hits, what, 57 or so? There's plenty of people under 57.

EDIT: Just got done with a group averaging 60.2. Paladin could pacify the large majority of the mobs. So the over 55 argument carries even less weight than I thought.

Battleblade

10-18-2003, 12:51 PM

And yes, people pacify/soothe on Assassinate and Rescue regularly.

BB

Glatius2

10-18-2003, 06:52 PM

And yes, people pacify/soothe on Assassinate and Rescue regularly.

Ahh, that makes some sense. Most of my adventures have been slaughter or collection.

Ender

10-19-2003, 01:13 PM

Best tank without a doubt in my mind in LDoN normal adventures assuming elemental guild is beastlord. Adequate tank, no worries over slow aggro, highest DPS tank out there. Lower end you get in gear/level/AA the more knights take over the lead until you hit rock bottem when you might actually need the warrior to tank.

cuedyen2

10-19-2003, 05:00 PM

has an insane advantage vs undead, which is more then 50% of the content.

Hmm, could have sworn most of the parses I have read show the Paladin DPS coming up to (in some slightly exceeding) a warrior's dps. Don't see how this is an insane advantage. It does provide a lot of eye candy though - which admittadly could be screwing peoples perceptions. Perception is all that really matters.

Glatius2

10-19-2003, 06:32 PM

Strange, but I have listened to Paladins systematically claim that the fact that Warriors typically average 20% more DPS than them is an insane advantage which justifies receiving no improvements what so ever regardless of how out of whack the game is otherwise. And now Paladins receiving a 20% DPS improvement in a large part of a new expansion and thereby rivalling Warrior DPS on a consistant basis is a trivial thing.

It seems to me that you guys need to take a logical stand and stick to it. Either 20% more DPS is an insane advantage or it isn't. If it is, then Warriors have every right to be POed that Paladins have been gifted an improvement which nullifies a Warrior advantage to a large degree. If it isn't, then Paladins need to STFU about how Warriors do 20% more damage then they do against live mobs.

Ender

10-19-2003, 07:04 PM

Most Paladins don't claim 20% is an insane advantage, they point out that it is indeed an advantage which many that argue balance seem to ignore. Countless times I see someone here post give me </insert list of every paladin ability no matter how minor it is here> and I'll trade you defensive, and of course they never list warrior DPS as part of the trade. That or they will say give Warriors Paladin aggro and Paladin's will still be better because of the utility, while ignoring the warriors DPS advantage.

Not saying SU isnt' an advantage it is, just saying I see as many Warriors being hypocrites about DPS as Paladins.

Glatius2

10-19-2003, 08:15 PM

What exactly have you sacraficed Ender to reap this 20% damage increase in a large part of LDoN? It seems you've kept all the traditional Paladin advantages, those things that Paladins get instead of things like Warrior DPS, while also gaining in most of the expansion parity in DPS to Warriors. So where is the trade off? The fact is, there isn't. Paladins received a free upgrade, thanks to LDoN.

Ender

10-19-2003, 09:59 PM

As I said both classes are hypocrites about it. SU is an advantage especially in LDoN, never claimed it isn't. Point is you calling out Paladins about whether 20% is significant or not and how they are hypocrites can be compared to the very fact that a large majority of warriors ignore DPS as not important to balance when they discuss the issue. Either its part of balance or it isn't. To me its an advantage for both instances.

For the specific example

has an insane advantage vs undead, which is more then 50% of the content

If paladins have an insane advantage vs undead then warriors have an insane DPS advantage outside of undead, which of course isn't true, its a moderate advantage at best. And to say 50% of the content in LDoN is undead is a misnomer as well as if you balance your raiding between the 5 its much less than 50%.

Gerick

10-19-2003, 11:02 PM

i can get groups, it is better than it was before it came out, but that is like giving a homeless person a hat because he is cold and his cloths are threadbare

Mokor Leadheaad

10-19-2003, 11:26 PM

20% is irelevent since the pally can hold agro the casters can nuke that 20% away sooner.

Battleblade

10-20-2003, 12:20 AM

And Warriors have to use aggro weapons so they aren't choosing the best DPS weapons in the first place. Usually they are 2-1Hdrs, knocking the DPS down further and because of the 1Hdrs their *cough* HP advantage gets eaten up by the first reposte.

Even when a Warrior uses a 2H aggro weapon unless he has access to an endgame item he still has problems. Compare Greatstaff of Thunder (31/30) weilded by a Warrior and a Windblade (50/44) /w a Divine Might (60?) buff weilded by a Paladin both at level 56 and no AA's. What DPS advantage?

Heck, to TRY to equal a Paladin's aggro generating capability with those level 9/15 mana stuns they can cast forever, poor Timmy the Warrior adds an Anger III proc (most Hate he can get with that weapon) to the Greatstaff and keeping up with the Jones's, the Paladin adds a Force of YKesha 125 DD proc to the already mighty Windblade /w Divine Might for a 2nd damage proc. What DPS advantage?

A DPS advantage is pretty situational isn't it? And even when a Paladin is outgunned in his personal ability to do DPS, a few stuns allows his group to make up for his "deficiency".

Warriors aren't pretending that "20% DPS Advantage" they have is trivial - it is and it often doesn't exist in the first place. On the other hand, the Paladin 20% increase of DPS against undead is on top of being able to use the best DPS weapon they can get.

BB

Superchum

10-20-2003, 04:01 AM

Just some observations ...

"Paladins -
-have equal or higher hps vs warriors, thanks to ghetto groups.
-has a gigantic advantage in aggro
-has an insane advantage vs undead, which is more then 50% of the content.
-have self and group heals, diminishing external heals by a lot
-has root for parking adds or stopping runaways."

The hit points issue isn't that big a deal in LDoN. I've seen rangers tank, I've seen bards tank, I've tanked. And rangers, bards and monks all lag behind HP-wise. The mobs aren't like PoP mobs, churning out such insane DPS that you absolutely need an optimal tank setup. At least on normal adventures. For hard adventures, well, there's a thread on MB right now showing a time-level monk tanking a named on a hard adventure.

So the HP disparity isn't too great an issue for the groups I've been in.

Paladins have a gigantic advantage in aggro, yes, but I've noticed aggro in tight knit dungeons like LDoN has been a lot iffier than before.

The undead advantage was addressed in the last patch, as many mobs in Mistmoore were changed to animals instead of undead.

Heals and crowd control are obviously going to be something a paladin does better than a warrior. But then again, I didn't think warriors wanted to do much healing. Heh. :P

"Shadowknights-
-some dungeons drastically need FD pulling, yay SKs
-they got snare, which is a definite need in all dungeons.
-lifetaps, dimishing external heals by a lot.
-lifetap/manatap, which helps a bit.
-more dps, which is always better.
-great aggro"

I personally have no problem with some adventures needing FD pulling. For obvious reasons. Heh.

Snare's good, yes. But Rangers and Druids have it too. And root works just as fine, and a whole crapload of classes have root.

Lifetaps I have no observations on. The SK I group with most has emp sword, and he gets a lot of critical lifetaps off. He still gets beat up a lot.

The DPS thing ... well ... I mean, warrior DPS is mana free. And time and mana are a constraint in LDoN.

"Can we use warriors in LDoN missions? sure....

Should we use warriors in LDoN missions? ... why??... well if there's no SK or Paladin around, then.. sure.."

The odd thing about that philosophy though, is ... I see it in practice. A lot.

Groups form up. And tanks are LFG. And they get picked. LDoN really has gotten people active and grouping again, and that's even trickled down to monks and warriors, who in PoP had some severe LFG woes.

"Or if you're looking for a 6th member... might as well take a LFG warrior... remember, 6th member doesnt leech exp anymore!"

Heh. There's nothing wrong with being the 6th man. You add DPS. You HELP the group kill faster, no matter what.

Anyways, I don't know if LDoN is really worth raging at regarding warriors.

At least not until people start to get elitist and super-efficient about their grouping habits.

And they haven't yet.

Bunnie Burner

10-20-2003, 04:57 AM

The point of what I had posted, was to show that paladins and shadowknights got advantages in LDoN (as well as new spells),
while warriors still have no advantage whatsoever.

The only thing giving us warriors a group spot in LDoN,
is the fact that there are more groups.

Hell, even if we were a naked enchanter with no spells.... we could still get a group.

Fact remains, we're still crap. Not entirely useless, but almost.

EmiliaEQ

10-20-2003, 05:16 AM

From my own experience ....

Paladins/SK do NOT tank better than warriors in LDoN.

LDoN is not 600+ hitters that have to be slowed.
LDoN is not FT40+ casters (kei+horse).

LDoN is PROXIMITY AGRO
LDoN is Endurance

Put a Pal/SK in a group, sure you will be able to burn down shit FAST.
But after 30 mins the average caster will be OOM dry.

Pur a war in a group, stuff will die slower, but since you
wont need a med break, overall it will be the same result.

As for utility, well they do beat us in that departement.
But AE taunt + Rampage + Multitanking + Proximity help a lot.

I wont even mention anger/ykesha which are a blessing.

EmiliaEQ

10-20-2003, 05:21 AM

Fact remains, we're still crap. Not entirely useless, but almost.

Totally wrong, you're so far from the truth its not even funny

landrain

10-20-2003, 05:34 AM

Originally posted by Superchum

At least not until people start to get elitist and super-efficient about their grouping habits.

And they haven't yet.

It's new, and they Will...

It took a few weeks until PoP problems because clearly evident, as they will soon in LDON.

Why? Because none of the problems have been addressed or fixxed..

Valeris

10-20-2003, 06:22 AM

hmm, what 'is' 20% more DPs than a pally in terms of actual impact on a groups effectiveness?

Anyone got parses on overall percentage of DPs done by a tank class in an average adventure?

Bearing in mind that i'm still gonna be wielding my dual wield aggro set up to have some slight hope of gaining aggro on adds (:p) that 20% is gonna be reduced in the first place.

....and really it's not a bonus I can (or my group can) see. Nobody likes to feel a 'fifth wheel' otherwise Monks wouldn't be grumbling eh? They provide more DPS than I after all :p

Battleblade

10-20-2003, 07:28 AM

Emilia,

Certainly a 65 Warrior with PoTime gear, a BoW, and all his relevant AA's like you is not crap.

Timmy the Level 56 Warrior with a Greatstaff of Thunder compared to Sir Gallahad with a Windblade IS crap.

Somewhere in the middle are people like me who are competing with Paladins for groups in Miraguls and DGuk. When MAing my Ornate Greatblade gets put away and my BoC with Strike of YKesha and CHoS with Anger II (working on Anger III for a BoW should I ever get one at which time I'll put Force of Yak on my Ornate Greatblade) get used.

My Paladin competition when MAing survives as good as me, still has much better aggro control, can buff the group, spot heal, root park, res the dead Cleric so we aren't delayed and lose, stun, out damage me (he doesn't have to put away his DPS weapon), and in the 2 zones I need for Anger III and Force of YKesha out performs me in every catagory by quite a margin.

I've grouped with a Cleric, Paladin, Necro, Bard, and a Rogue in DGuk. It was a romp. If they had dumped me in favor of another Rogue it would have been absurd.

We aren't crap, but most of us aren't very competative in LDoN.

BB

Arathena

10-20-2003, 07:34 AM

LDON mobs seem to have highish dodge, parry and riposte abilities. Whoever's on the front plummets like mad, excepting warriors with Tactical Mastery 3. Our nightly group consists of a warrior, a monk, a ranger, and an SK for damage, with the SK doing most of the tanking on normal missions.

The warrior, from the back, will do about a quarter of the total melee damage, the monk and the ranger each do about 30%, with me doing the balance. Under agressive, the warrior spikes up to about 35% of our total damage output. Switch us around, with the warrior tanking, and the group overall does a little less damage, the warriors dropping to about 18-20%. My melee DPS rises, but my mana DPS does not, and with a paladin, mana based damage is a null factor.

Battleblade

10-20-2003, 07:50 AM

This might explain why the group I was in seemed so powerful. Cleric, Paladin, Necro, and Bard queuing up mobs. Me MAing a live mob with the Rogue and Necro Pet already going to work on it while crowd control did it's thing. Rogue, Paladin, Necro Pet and Cleric all meleeing in the back.

Dump me, have the Paladin MA and add another Rogue and it clearly gets even better.

BB

Valeris

10-20-2003, 09:08 AM

Aye i was most interested in a caster heavy group not a melee based - more tanks you have, slower stuff dies, larger portion of the pie for each melee involved.

Arathena

10-20-2003, 10:35 AM

That's debateable, BB, depending on the need to offtank. We've frequently found that having not one, but two, well geared plate tanks in the group is the difference between one or more people running/rezzing and that lost time. I don't like it when we rep the warrior with the rogue, but that's part of my coloring on it, mostly because it's what I'm used to. As well, I can and will die on LDoN missions, and I don't like panicing, wondering if the monk is tanking well, or if they're drilling him. Your groups will vary.

Drunken Mick

10-20-2003, 10:37 AM

Finally got into some LDON here recently. IMHO, best thing to happen to warriors I've seen is LDON. I used to have a FUCK of a time getting groups, or I'd have to make my own and take tons of time doing it. Now, I'm a casual gamer (former hard core), so it has been an utter blessing to go LFG, get a group (whatever makeup) head on in and get some xps, AP's and cash.

The downside being, however, that aggro generation / sustained is still fubar'd. Rangers / Shammy's / Ench you name it pull mobs off me even after multiple EB procs etc... I know I know, I need a better off-hand wep and / or need to aug my BoC... but still. It's ruff when you got a lot of DPS.

EmiliaEQ

10-20-2003, 11:00 AM

Battleblade you partially right, but again you are missing the main point.

Paladin Tank with wizard dps:
Burn , Burn , Burn , Burn , Med , Med , Med , Med

Warrior Tank with Wizard dps:
Nuke, Nuke , Nuke, Nuke , Nuke, Nuke, Nuke, Nuke

I am willing to bet , that the 2 have the same mob per hour kill rate.

You DONT HAVE to SLOW ASAP in ldon (which was the case in valor)
You DONT HAVE to BURN in ldon (which was the case in valor)
You DONT HAVE FT40+ in ldon (which was the case in valor)

Of course a wizard can nuke at 100% with a paladin tanking.
But he'll need a med break every 2 mobs.

Or he can nuke at 50% with a war tanking.
He will need a med break every 4 mobs.

You fail to see that killing FAST is not crucial.

Killing 20 mobs in 20 minutes, then having to med for 10 mins.
Is exacly the same as killing 20 mobs in 30 minutes.

Of course the 10 min breaks good if u want to go take a leak.
But in the end you will have killed 20 mobs in 30 mins.
And thats all that matters for LDoN.

The War56+GSoT VS Pal56+WBlade is flawed.
Because again you are not looking at the global picture.

When you have a melee oriented group : Pal = War in tanking
When you have a caster oriented group : Pal = War in tanking

(We do get shafted in utility but thats not the point of the discussion)

Superchum

10-20-2003, 01:27 PM

Emilia stated what I was trying to get at much clearer than I ever could.

Thank you.

"It's new, and they Will...

It took a few weeks until PoP problems because clearly evident, as they will soon in LDON.

Why? Because none of the problems have been addressed or fixxed.."

Call me optimistic, but I think the variety and flexibility of the instancing sort of allows for less than optimal groupings.

Which means the efficiency freaks won't dominate as MUCH as they did in PoP.

And what Emilia posted sort of gets right to the heart of the matter.

In dungeons, with a timer, melees are indeed useful for what they do.

Warriors are by no means "godly" and of course there's problems with the class that still need to be addressed.

But, it's very refreshing to go LFG with my monk OR my warrior, and get more than just groups with friends offered.

landrain

10-20-2003, 01:43 PM

LOL...

Then I guess you dont look at the 'Standings'

Currently the top 20 people on my server are All either pure casters or BST/Knights I dont even see a Warrior in the top 30.

Why? Because they DO THIS >> BURN, BURN, BURN, BURN, BURN
They finish 90 minute mission in 30-40 minutes and then do another...

Superchum

10-20-2003, 02:33 PM

"Then I guess you dont look at the 'Standings'"

Oh god.

For once I am speechless.

My advice, you'll feel MUCH better about yourself if you TOO do not bother with ... the "STANDINGS."

Gerick

10-20-2003, 03:07 PM

look at my set up, 4000 unbuffed(doesnt show augments) CHoS/SotB and a GoFW, also augmented with proc's, and i still have problems getting groups, why? because warrior overall suck untill they finally get the best gear they can, and because that is so rare most people see shitty taunt mashers or poorly geared warriors and think "hmm that class sucks overall" and then we are all fucked because of it, that is unless i can start putting my weapons and procs in the LFG comment window, shame i have to shit and piss over what combo im using to get a group.

Gerick

10-20-2003, 03:09 PM

Originally posted by EmiliaEQ
Battleblade you partially right, but again you are missing the main point.

Paladin Tank with wizard dps:
Burn , Burn , Burn , Burn , Med , Med , Med , Med

Warrior Tank with Wizard dps:
Nuke, Nuke , Nuke, Nuke , Nuke, Nuke, Nuke, Nuke

I am willing to bet , that the 2 have the same mob per hour kill rate.

You DONT HAVE to SLOW ASAP in ldon (which was the case in valor)
You DONT HAVE to BURN in ldon (which was the case in valor)
You DONT HAVE FT40+ in ldon (which was the case in valor)

Of course a wizard can nuke at 100% with a paladin tanking.
But he'll need a med break every 2 mobs.

Or he can nuke at 50% with a war tanking.
He will need a med break every 4 mobs.

You fail to see that killing FAST is not crucial.

Killing 20 mobs in 20 minutes, then having to med for 10 mins.
Is exacly the same as killing 20 mobs in 30 minutes.

Of course the 10 min breaks good if u want to go take a leak.
But in the end you will have killed 20 mobs in 30 mins.
And thats all that matters for LDoN.

The War56+GSoT VS Pal56+WBlade is flawed.
Because again you are not looking at the global picture.

When you have a melee oriented group : Pal = War in tanking
When you have a caster oriented group : Pal = War in tanking

(We do get shafted in utility but thats not the point of the discussion)

bard+KEI or beastlord+bard in group=

paladin tank

nuke nuke nuke nuke nuke nuke nuke nuke

also it only takes 2 to 3 min to med to full for most classes no where near 10

Bunnie Burner

10-20-2003, 06:04 PM

Where does having a warrior in the group save mana?????

Paladins and SKs spend virtually 0 mana if they only stun.
And they can save clerics mana with their own heals... hell, SKs can even feed clerics a bit.

And if the group is ghetto, the paladin will have more hp then the warrior, hell, the WHOLE group will have more hp, then if a warrior was with them.

And with aggro lock, casters won't get hit.. saving cleric mana... again.

I fail to see why you interpret Warriors with Mana savings... its not the case...
unless you take the case of wizards going oom on paladins,
but staying at 50% with warriors....

Wizard nukage isnt the only thing affected by aggro lock....
clerics needing to heal others more,
rogues needing to back off a sec due to aggro...

again.... we dont have a HUGE disadvantage in LDoN, like we had in PoP...
but where the hell is our Advantage for having 0 spells, for having 0 heals, 0 roots, 0 pacifies, 0 buffs etc.....

Hybrids get all that, and they still get an advantage over us, at being maintanks in LDoN.... (and 99% of the rest of norrath)

And now people are saying it's OK, because we get groups.
We are years behind hybrids and casters... but its O K, as long as we get exp?
Is the fact of getting a group really all that matters????

Deadalus

10-20-2003, 06:21 PM

Admittedly my wizard's only 56, but in his ldon groups, he doesn't need a med break with a paladin tank. Between KEI, pot9, bl or bard (sometimes both) the ONLY thing limiting his dps is tank agro. He's usually under 10m by the time the last mob falls, but that's because he doesn't take any breaks during fighting, only sitting between pulls.

There are so many easily obtainable mana regen spells in the game, going OOM is not much of an issue. Well, at least for the wizard; clerics can and do go oom when mobs start ping ponging around the group because warrior loses agro. Quick heals cost close to the same mana to CH on my lvl and heal 1/3 of what a CH does, at least at my level (DL 350 vs. CH 400). Gets worse higher up (400 Sup Remedy, 500 Eth Light... etc).