That's right, another bitch about Knights.

[Glatius2]

I swear to god, where do all the idiot Knights come from? Now don't get me wrong, not every Knight who comes to TSW is completely clueless. A number of them can actually form a valid arguement and are relatively rational, even if many times they wear blinders due to the class they play. Okay, that's fine, we can all do that to one degree or another, no crime there.

But then the 100% pure, unmitigated, unabridged, idiots make an apperance.

"Oh nos," they cry, "Warriors can't have aggro control or it will be back to Kunark for Knights!"

"OMG," they wail, "Warriors have defensive and therefore should never get another change or improvement until the end of time, or it will be back to Kunark for Knights!"

"But, but, but," they stammer, "Warriors have more HP and mitigate better than Knights, even if it's by a small margin, therefore Knights need to completely own aggro control, or it will be back to Kunark for Knights!"

"Look at the huge Warrior DPS," they lament, "it exceeds ours by a full 20% unless we're a Paladin with slay undead fighting undead and then it's dead even! Or if we're a Shadow Knight using offensive spells and then it's superior to Warrior DPS! Oh the pain, the agony!"

And when confronted about utility and spells and additional fuctionality they wiggle and squirm and try and make the spells completely meaningless. "Oh nos, no one picks us because of our spells! No, na ah, never, doesn't happen. No way!" When you talk about how the Paladins can buff themselves to a higher level of additional HP than a Cleric can buff a Warrior, they cry, "Oh nos, Warriors are never without a Cleric! Warriors always have Cleric buffs so Paladin HP buffs are meaningless!"

When you talk about the hidden HP in the mana bar, they wail about how they never have mana to cast heals because they're always stunning. And when you point out how they own aggro control by stunning, they claim they can't do that all the time because then they wouldn't have enough mana to heal. Or in some cases they just outright deny that their spells generate significant aggro! And they do it with a straight face expecting to be believed!

I swear, it could make a man just spit.

[Thaak]

Originally posted by Glatius2
"Oh nos," they cry, "Warriors can't have aggro control or it will be back to Kunark for Knights!"

"OMG," they wail, "Warriors have defensive and therefore should never get another change or improvement until the end of time, or it will be back to Kunark for Knights!"

"But, but, but," they stammer, "Warriors have more HP and mitigate better than Knights, even if it's by a small margin, therefore Knights need to completely own aggro control, or it will be back to Kunark for Knights!"

"Look at the huge Warrior DPS," they lament, "it exceeds ours by a full 20% unless we're a Paladin with slay undead fighting undead and then it's dead even! Or if we're a Shadow Knight using offensive spells and then it's superior to Warrior DPS! Oh the pain, the agony!"
Now imagine those being told by a chubby 8 year old kid from the Netherlands, like the kid on the Simpsons. Makes it MUCHO more funny.

[Aeka]

I see them as bad players before being bad whatever classes. They simply fail to realize that having classes way out of wack is just as bad for them as it is for those in the weakened class. But in their short sighted view of the game, they would rather continue with a broken system than risk anything.

[Kaesorn]

Indeed it does, Thaak. Indeed it does.

I used to play a shadowknight (although I mostly retired her), and my old roommate who helped get me into EQ plays a paladin. Considering how much we talked about our capabilities and learned a lot about our classes, it scares me when some of these paladins say they can't do anything. If you're doing nothing but casting your huge mana cost stuns (the 200 mana ones), then you might have a point...you'd also be an idiot, but that's another story.:D

/agree Aeka. Of course if you're on top, you don't really want people to be equal with you.

[ragnarz]

First Glatius /applaud for your vigilance.

It seems that for every warrior or paladin trying to describe the reality of class balance, there are 2 (or more) who will go to extremes to prove your reality a fantasy. For every reasonable idea brought forth, there are a dozen crackpot ones. The only upside currently is the HUGE BUZZ on the subject. You can find it on all the class boards, in sigs and the comics lol. Hopefully, the buzz will continue and SOE will eventually make an attempt at changing the game. Just be prepared to hate what they do while at the same time you acknowledge the fact that they are trying.

[Carnican]

A few days ago, Glatius, I came into the Outhouse to state the opinion that the "issue" is only exists due to the message boards.

We have great warriors in our guild, they do thier jobs as well as any other class. The observation I made was simply, the warriors I run with have one thing in common. A total lack of desire to read the ongoing "HUGE BUZZ." They, and I play hard, fight hard and accomplish whatever objective is set forth.

I don't need a group of denzians to flame me to prove my point. My point gets proven nightly by logging on and attending a raid, killing "farm grade" or "new" encounters with rarely an aggro issue. And when that issue arrises, it's handled quickly and gotten under control.

Same goes for the exp group. I am rather new to the raiding-grade guild. But, after doing an LDoN mission, with the Guild Leader (a warrior) and not only going into that mission with the "nerviousness of the guild rank" being an issue, and the fact that TSW has me convinced warriors were broke, I really felt like I was dancing on eggshells.

Can I, as a knight, gank aggro? Sure, with effort.
Do I want or need it in a raid enviroment? Occasionally, and that's only temporary.
Do I want aggro in an exp enviroment with a warrior in group? Hell no. It's his.

So, basically, are the warriors that I run with still "broken" because a message board of limited posters hasn't told them that they are broken?

[uhrlik]

Gawd, here we go again. :rolleyes:

The higher level you get, with more AAs, better support/DPS players, better gear and weapons like BoW, the less evident the problems become, to the point of being unable to notice them at all.

Try your stun tricks with a level 60 warrior with half a dozen AA points and no EB weapons. Maybe then you'll see what we're talking about. Hell, watch a druid snare a mob and bring it back for a warrior to tag and tank. 100pp says that a good portion of the time, the warrior will run around like an idiot until someone roots the mob because he can't possibly outmatch the snare aggro.

We're not broken, we're outdated and in need of an upgrade. We've said this before and it's not just playing a semantics game.

[Oogmol]

Originally posted by Carnican
Can I, as a knight, gank aggro? Sure, with effort.
Do I want or need it in a raid enviroment? Occasionally, and that's only temporary.
Do I want aggro in an exp enviroment with a warrior in group? Hell no. It's his.

So, basically, are the warriors that I run with still "broken" because a message board of limited posters hasn't told them that they are broken?

Your point ignores the entire issue here. Paladins due to their snap aggro have become the tanks of choice in exp groups. Not really a problem, the problem is, warrior taunt is so broken, that it becomes hard if not impossible to find an exp group past a certain point. THAT is what is "broken," in that warriors have become an afterthought in exp groups, and no one really wants them in the pickup group unless they have certain AA's. Of course, without exp groups, it's rather hard to get said AA's. I am sure, however, this is irrelevant to you.

[uhrlik]

Of course it is. Carnican can get guild groups, thanks to being in a raid guild, and can get exp groups at the drop of an lfg tag. Why should they give a damn about what happens to another entire section of the player base (a section that might actually come into competition with them if it got upgraded. Oh, the horror! :eek: )?

[Glatius2]

You, Carnican, are an example, a moderate example, of exactly what I'm talking about. You use the fact that on raids you don't want aggro and everyone works hard to make sure the Warrior MT keeps it as an example that nothing is broke. Bullshit. Let me say this very slowly, in hopes that it will sink in.


RAIDS....ARE....NOT....THE....SAME....AS....EXPERI ENCE....GROUPS.

Did you get that? Let me say it again in case it is unclear.

RAIDS....ARE....NOT....THE....SAME....AS....EXPERI ENCE....GROUPS.

Oh, but what do I mean by that? Simple, just because your guild is capable of adapting to a situation where it is in their best interests to let a Warrior tank does not equate to rest of the EQ world being willing to do the same. That is why I say:

RAIDS....ARE....NOT....THE....SAME....AS....EXPERI ENCE....GROUPS.

You use the fact that when you group with a Warrior and want him to tank that you let him have aggro. Yet you completely disregard the question of why do you even have a Warrior in the group to begin with? Many people wouldn't take the Warrior and would just prefer to let you tank, it's easier on them. But no, Warriors are fine because the Mighty Carnican in his infinite generosity is willing to let them tank, when he's grouped with one.

Go away, you're nothing but a troll at this point. Your arguements aren't based on substance and your complete refusal to see beyond anything but your situation where you group with a Warrior (hello, how many groups are really built around two tanks? Even in LDoN it isn't the majority situation) is just you chanting, "Don't confuse me with the facts, I've made up my mind."

[Mokor Leadheaad]

knighs should go back to kunark since warriors never left.

[Daemonwynd]

Then there's the twits that think that returning warrior desirability in experience groups means that they should magically get defensive in compensation, or that we should somehow pay in other ways to be returned to the old balance.

[Bikamar]

Let them have defensive. Just hook it into their casting with the 10 minute reuse. They go defensive - no spells for 10 minutes. They cast a spell, no defensive for 10 minutes.

[Dalantia]

Just do what I do, assume they're biased no matter what. *grin*

[Aeka]

Man, I don't want defensive. Anyone with any ounce of sanity realizes /disc defensive is like the kiss of death. ^_^

[czai]

I came into the Outhouse to state the opinion that the "issue" is only exists due to the message boards.

You came into the Outhouse to loudly proclaim that your anecdotal evidence proves that warriors "should STFU" about aggro issues.

the warriors I run with have one thing in common. A total lack of desire to read the ongoing "HUGE BUZZ." They, and I play hard, fight hard and accomplish whatever objective is set forth.

That's how I play, I fight hard and attempt to accomplish our objective. I certainly don't go around bitching in /rs that warriors are broken. But I do see allusions to warrior aggro. When a knight takes over tanking a mob, there's no need to back off. He has instant aggro. With a warrior, the raid must pause for him to get aggro. There's very little difference in the healing necessary.

killing "farm grade" or "new" encounters with rarely an aggro issue. And when that issue arrises, it's handled quickly and gotten under control.

"rarely" an aggro issue? How is it solved? Do the knights jump in and save the day? Or maybe a warrior is lucky and has AE taunt up? Have any idea how helpless a warrior feels when a goddamn mob is pingponging and you're chasing it all over hoping your taunt works? No I guess not, all you have to do is stand there and cast a stun and aggro is yours.

Same goes for the exp group.

Oh no, aggro in raids FOR WARRIORS is in no way, shape or form the "same" as in an exp group. Not for a warrior at least. Pallies can cast FoA and get their aggro instantly. Low health aggro? NP, root it, toss a Light of Nife on the hurt party, and go back to tanking. SKs deal with it a bit differently I'd imagine, I wouldn't presume to know since I have not played one to the extent that I have a paladin.

Now tell me what a warrior would do in the same situation? Rampage? Not worth it, one extra attack. AE taunt won't work due to LOW HP aggro. We can't root. Disc is useless.

Let's break it down. Warriors are dependent on a group, but groups are not dependent on the warrior, and, except for a few specialized cases, are better off with a knight as a tank in xp situations.

Can I, as a knight, gank aggro? Sure, with effort.
Do I want or need it in a raid enviroment? Occasionally, and that's only temporary.
Do I want aggro in an exp enviroment with a warrior in group? Hell no. It's his.

Well, your parameters are sure black and white....

If my weapon doesn't proc, one FOA can pull aggro off me. Several, and it's glued on the paladin until I get a few procs and well-timed taunts (ones that actually work~). I also think you'll find that grouping with lower level warriors with substandard kit and not as many AA's will change your outlook on things.

Does your guild utilize knights as off-tanks? Ours does.

I LOVE grouping with paladins. One of my best in-game friends is one. With A GOOD knight, or ranger, you can work together to manage aggro. I regularly group with an awesome ranger who knows how to twitch aggro onto him off the slower and when to jolt it off onto me. Maybe if more people were like this ranger, things would be easier. As it is, I'm helpless to control aggro and must rely upon my group utterly.

So, basically, are the warriors that I run with still "broken" because a message board of limited posters hasn't told them that they are broken?

You know, having 8k hp doesn't matter if you can't keep the mob hitting you. That's pretty much the crux of the matter. I don't think we're "broken." I think we haven't evolved along with the the hybrids, priests and casters. Along with their new spells we got... crappy itemization. Along with awesome POP knight weapons we got... /shield. The benefits don't balance, therefore pure melees fell behind. A monk who could once solo upper spiders at Velks with his T-staff now watches bards pull, and sees his DPS threatened by warriors and surpassed in some cases by casters. He, like the other pure melees, has gotten no updates to his class, not even to the disciplines.

Warriors, who once tanked nearly everything, have gone from tanking mobs that hit 100-300ish (depending on zone), and not minding losing aggro, to tanking mobs that hit for 500+, and risking killing the slower if he loses aggro. Aggro has become an overblown issue in POP. Warriors AND pure melee abilities have NOT evolved to better adapt to this situation. Knights, who have had good aggro for awhile, have gotten new spells and the ability (including AA) to tank 90% as well as a warrior, and have adapted quite well to fit the POP scenario.

Warriors arent broken. We were left behind, along with monks, because SOE is too shit-lazy to fix itemization, too lazy to upgrade abilities that dont involve mana, too lazy to think outside the box. We'll see if that changes by next year when WOW is due to come out. We'll see if it's not too late then, to bring pure melees up to the level of casters, hybrids and priests.

[uhrlik]

I'm still going with Mokor's stance.

[Marshall]

Mokor is 100% correct and I agree with him too. :)

[Madronedorf]

sometimes i go overboard (usually in the outhouse; i try to be post more concise realistic arguements in the other forums... and do more of my bitching in the [this] bitching forum...

While I actually agree with most issues, and I think most knights do, when someone has an outlandish claim (IE omg slay undead gives paladins 80% more DPS) despite proven parse's showing to the opposite, sometimes its hard to not get really frustrated at the lack of understand of the class (just as warriors must get really fucking pissed off when someone tells them about their class and post stupid claims also (i've been guilty of that =()

[Firkasse]

I actually use the tools provided by the game in a group ( and in some raids) to my advantage.

I regularly group with a 300+ AA pally within my guild on adventures or a quick trip to single group Doze and other such mobs...
Bard goes and pulls, Pally grabs insta aggro while debuffs go on... pally then hands aggro to me ( and does so within a few seconds) so I can tank out the rest of the fight... very rare that I dont get the aggro when it is due to be mine.

The key to making this work is COMMUNICATION and TEAMWORK as a group. Almost impossible to achieve in a pick up group - but quite easy to hone and a hell of a lot of fun when you play with the same folks on a regular basis.

So my advice would be to get out there, talk to each other, make friends and work with what you got! It's quite easy to use a knight and warrior in the same group to devistating effect.

[lamini]

how bout just calling me out glatius instead of beating around the bush. Id be happy to debate on a lot of your comments with what ive experieinced. big difference between debating and namecalling.

Oh nos," they cry, "Warriors can't have aggro control or it will be back to Kunark for Knights!"
whos whining? bunch of crap to me, i have yet to see a warrior whining about getting / keeping agro (other than warriors here)... again, just what ive experienced.. and again i tanked with a windblade for 4 levels and got / kept agro well... ya go ahead and skip what i just wrote, i wont bother retyping coments like you do. And if i did fine with just windblade which has no procs, how well could a dual wielding agro proccing warrior do more better?

OMG," they wail, "Warriors have defensive and therefore should never get another change or improvement until the end of time, or it will be back to Kunark for Knights!"

you quote, yet i cant find it. I cant find a person here that doesnt agree that warriors should get something glatius.


"But, but, but," they stammer, "Warriors have more HP and mitigate better than Knights, even if it's by a small margin, therefore Knights need to completely own aggro control, or it will be back to Kunark for Knights!"

small my butt lol, if 800hps is small let me borrow some. you have this thing for knights. as if youve never seen other non tank classses tank that can own us in agro.. i dont know, maybe you havent. Im sure you know wizards can own anyone in agro. No they cant tank as well. But ANYONE can tank if they got healers to keep them up, so you can get off the knight thing, and in case you havent seen non tanks such as beastlords, monks, rangers tank in hard LDoN missions THEY DO!, ive seen them! Its not the HPs / AC that allows them to tank, its that they got healers behind them. And they snap agro better than even myself and keep it longer.

And when confronted about utility and spells and additional fuctionality they wiggle and squirm and try and make the spells completely meaningless. "Oh nos, no one picks us because of our spells! No, na ah, never, doesn't happen. No way!" When you talk about how the Paladins can buff themselves to a higher level of additional HP than a Cleric can buff a Warrior, they cry, "Oh nos, Warriors are never without a Cleric! Warriors always have Cleric buffs so Paladin HP buffs are meaningless

find me the person whos saying our spells are meaningless... i assure it wasnt me. I can assure you that no one picks us up for our spells (i know im not, if i cast BSS, everyone already has it, or has rangerbuffs); ONLY casters might want BSS, everyone else is after ranger buffs. About your buffs, i have yet to remember a time i was in a group without aego/virtue, as ive said before, we depend on hps, why would we waste our own 2 peridots and mana when we can pay 20pp for a virtue ANYWHERE that lasts 2.5hours+. Have you ever had paladin buffs on other than brells? I highly doubt it. I know I wouldnt suffer all that loss in HPs but since your a warrior with the bigger HPs maybe you could /shrug. good luck finding a paladin who spent all them points on a wannabe cleric buff that lasts half the time and costs twice the peridots. In reality it isnt pally aego, its pally temperance. tell me an instance where you would spend the hundreds of points to buy this dumb spell when you already got heroic bond and marzin that cost you probably 100pp from NPCs that has more hitpoints and lasts longer, which gets written over by cleric buffs. petes sake throw the PAL buffs > all thing, like you would ever have the buffs on yourself when virtue is virtually anywhere. You can time me from the time i log on and find a virtue and i'll probably have it in less than 3 minutes, or is it that hard to find?

Or in some cases they just outright deny that their spells generate significant aggro! And they do it with a straight face expecting to be believed!

no denying here. straight face here. belive it, its true, unless your wielding a pair of fine steel weapons and dont know where your taunt button is. Nothing new here, move on. Post some parses or something rather than just continuing on with your stun agro thing as I can tell you over and over again chain casting stuns ALONE will not get a mob off a warrior already tanking it... shrug how would I know since im the one casting it and done it numerous times in xp groups and raids. hope you read that line, again. K, now maybe since you had enough time to make an ALT paladin you might have something different to say, but im going on 3 years of stuns here. Ive even had it where another paladin was chain casting stuns and was surprised that i kept agro with just taunt as he, like you, assumed stuns could keep agro; its snap agro, not locked/permanent, now IF you are also meleeing and taunting at the same time, not JUST stunning (which the argument was about) it would be hard to get agro off me, but you can.

[Flair]

This thread is goin in exactly the same direction as the last one that was locked and destroyed....

[Tierleaf]

I think people are missing the point about a regular group and pickup groups, I never have problem with my regular group as a warrior, because over the years they know how much aggro I can produce and they play accordingly. I couldn't tell you the last time I was in a pickup group with my main warrior though simply because of all he frustration involved in trying to get a group.

[Thaak]

Lamini, words cannot describe the sheer lunacy of what you just said.

[Carnican]

Lamini, I'm with Thaak on this one.

My blinders have been pointed out clearly that at a certain level of the game the aggro issue becomes moot. Lamini, you're standing in front of the warriors saying you are superior. Brace yourself against an onslaught. I get the line of crap from the warriors because I stand before the warriors and say we are peers, when everyone does their jobs properly.

****************************************
Clarification on the spellbook (hopfully, non-biased)

Stuns
raid
The one of the main concerns with our spell book is our defining line of spells. The stuns. At the Tier 2-3 raid enviroment, on 65 and under mobs, one pally stunning early is an issue. On 65 and under mobs, 3 pallys on stun rotation can lock a mob. This benifits EVERYONE and hinders no-one. The only thing getting beat on is the mob. Yellow cons and above, you bet, stun is the last spell I want to cast. Unless we are being ripped up by a multi-pull or a splitting mob running rampant within our ranks. And that's just to buy time till a real tank gets on it, or the CC team gets to it.
grindYes, our level 7 and 9 stuns have some serious taunt built in. But more and more, I am seeing less and less lock generated. Quite possibly due to additional AA's of my fellow groupies or... I dunno.

Utilities
Our utility line is nice, but situational, as well. Finally getting RGC, actually took me away from getting in the thick of things now and then. And Crusaders Touch is so perma-memmed that I will need to DKP an Ornate BP now, just to free a slot.

Clerical Buffs
Our "clerical" buffs are insignifigant in an exp or raid enviroment. Any buff we have that can upgraded by a cleric, is.

Heals
Our heals are not "primary" heals. They are great back-ups and spammers at the beginning of an engage, or at certain ecounters where AE DD's or DoT's are of concern. I doubt the paladin could really count as a signifigant "healing force." My focus of AA's are these improvements. I am looking for Conservation focii and I finally obtained an Ext. Range IV item.
****************************************

I feel bad when a warrior uses the "knights have a one up on the warrior because of a spell book" argument. That just says class envy, really. Those are, really the ones that shoulda rolled a caster.

I still, feel to a point the issue stands because some/most message board warriors "want" the issue. Whether it's generated by player skill, gear, or just wanting the world handed to them on a silver platter. To those folks that want unconditional lock, please don't keep wanting to break the game for everyone.

[Marshall]

i have yet to see a warrior whining about getting / keeping agro (other than warriors here)

What a load of BS. Yup, its just the warriors on this board, cause we hate knights and have a secret twisted agenda of our own. Another thingy to add to the knight BS list Glatius. :D

I never whine in the game either to be honest (other than to my close RL friends sometimes). I have no EB weapons but I work hard and try to keep aggro IF I get a group that is. And I am having this very persistent problem of not being able to find a group lately. I have tried things like destroying low level dungeons solo just to kill the boredom and do something while I'm in the game, slay halflings, druids, elves etc. here and there, but recently I have run out of ideas to keep it fun. I couldn't find a SINGLE group this whole week, except for one time when I found a group for 5 minutes and a paladin was already tanking, he wanted me to become MT but the others simply REFUSED even though I had roughly 1000 more hp's and a level over the pally. The cleric had to leave for some reason and the shammy had to sleep so the group split. It's never been so bad, ever. I have been sacrificing my sleep to play at odd/early hours just so I may find a group and it has worked in the past but not anymore. So now I spend my time reading books and playing other pc games and I keep visiting TSW regularly hoping to see good news sometime soon.

[Partha]

grindYes, our level 7 and 9 stuns have some serious taunt built in. But more and more, I am seeing less and less lock generated. Quite possibly due to additional AA's of my fellow groupies or... I dunno.

Maybe because you don't have a level 7 stun? ;)

Away with ye, troll.

[Shikarii]

Originally posted by Carnican
A total lack of desire to read the ongoing "HUGE BUZZ."

10 points for the BTILC refrence :D

[Kadah]

Carn, you almost had me, Intill you said your level 7 stun...
I feel lied to, and betrayed by how little skillz our current paladin trolls have these days, and I had hope that maybe you could set the bar higher /cry
Alas its not to be. troll's please look and learn and try please try, to at least get the level where you get spells correct.
Then when you remember how you actully play your leet ubah class, then come back and fight with Glat , and Thaak, especially Brutal.
Anyway thats my semi rant, and im stickin to it. Hope they nerf knight's mitigation to well im gonna coin a phrase from Uhrlik. "Drop like a prom night dress"

Yours in war
Kadah

(ps. not a personal attack at anyone.. I am just seeing so many of our paladin troll's just becoming dumber and dumber.. Now our real paladin fourm lurker's that arent.. you know... droped on their head at birth etc. Please feel free to keep providing your insight's ^-^)

[Shikarii]

Originally posted by Flair
This thread is goin in exactly the same direction as the last one that was locked and destroyed....

and when it gets to that point it will be but a memory..it won't make it that far.

[Carnican]

/snicker Partha

You know what I mean. =D

7 / 9

9 / 12

Hell, I dunno. castersrealm.com is offline atm

Desist and Cease are the ones I am referring to.

[Marshall]

I never understood the logic behind deleting Outhouse threads. Locking them down is understandable though.

[Shikarii]

Guys; for the record they ain't deleted. They're safe in our place we keep stuff..If you all want them put back than by all means I'll put them back.

I just hate shit festering about and having all that nonsense lurking about just waiting to fuel some new spark of fire somewhere.

[Marshall]

I, for one, don't want them back. You moderators do a great job and you know your stuff. I was only curious. :D

[Raychael]

Just one request: Don't make Shik go all MIGHTYTALK (tm) because it frightens me :p

[Trondir]

Originally posted by Carnican
/snicker Partha

You know what I mean. =D

7 / 9

9 / 12

Hell, I dunno. castersrealm.com is offline atm

Desist and Cease are the ones I am referring to.

9 and 15

omfg

[Glatius2]

how bout just calling me out glatius instead of beating around the bush. Id be happy to debate on a lot of your comments with what ive experieinced. big difference between debating and namecalling.

Lamini, I had no interest in calling you out specifically because you are most assuredly not the only one that does what I'm talking about. You're merely one of the more recent ones. If you want to take it as a personal attack on you, I really couldn't care less. It however does not mean that there aren't numerous other people who fall into exactly the same catagory.

[Partha]

Carnican:

They're your own damn spells. They sit in your damn spellbook. Even Warriors who've never touched the Paladin button on the character generation screen know what levels those spells are.

And now you, a Paladin with no apparant knowledge of HIS OWN SPELLBOOK, are going to come lecture us on class balance?

Away with ye, AGAIN, troll.

:p

[Isk]

wow, he didn't know the exact levels of spells he doesn't really use. omgzor!1!!1

[Partha]

grindYes, our level 7 and 9 stuns have some serious taunt built in. But more and more, I am seeing less and less lock generated. Quite possibly due to additional AA's of my fellow groupies or... I dunno.

How can he see less and less lock generated with those spells if he doesn't use them, Isk? Or even know that they have 'serious taunt built in'? Unless it's all a plot of Warriors to get Knights nerfed......:rolleyes:

[Carnican]

Have as much fun with it as you wish. =D

They get memmed automatically, now. And they were page 3-4 spells since Luclin came out.

Sorry to burst anyone's bubbles, but I don't spend my entire time online with the spell book open, right click-holding every spell in my book.

Jooz make a big deal about nothing... /rolls eyes

[Isk]

ok, fair enough. /shrug, harp on the issue all you want instead of saying something meaningful. whatever!

[Partha]

Already have, Isk. Now I'm sitting here watching Sir Clueless try and refute them. So far, all he's done is prove Paladins STILL are not an INT hybrid. :D

[lamini]

Lamini, you're standing in front of the warriors saying you are superior.
hehe ya it feels a bit different from the game itself where I get kicked out of groups as soon as warriors go LFG :(


[quote]Brace yourself against an onslaught. [/qoute]
Onslaught doesnt bother me, all Im saying is true to my knkowledge, just posting my experience, im sure im not the only one with it (even though im on a warrior board) and that im positive that others will share theirs eventually to support me

[Valeris]

Heh, if you get 'kicked out' of a group I'd suggest there's something else at work than the group getting a 'better' tank class :p

[lamini]

on once instance, I took anon off (I had a cheap all / all robe on, and a mod rod) and enchanter goes.. "oh thought you were a mage"

MAGE MAGE MAGE MAGE CLERIC ENC. I wasnt aware that XP groups didnt require tanks :(

[Glatius2]

And this begs the question why a tank would be wearing a cheap all/all robe and wielding a mode rod when preparing to go hunting for experience.....

[lamini]

i was monk /LFG !

gets old after 200 days played and looking at the same character. Ive been trying for faction in sebillis for crown of deceit whenever i can and it seems my faction it wont change at all. So, until i get it, im looking at myself in a robe (shady silk robe). Just my thing i guess till i get an illusion item... Inspired to me from a high elf rogue :P

[Glatius2]

Hate to say it Lamini, but you've brought your credibility into some question.....

[Kilaara]

Just something to say.

In the past the MA on our raids was a warrior. Now the standard MA on our raids (just killed xegony) is a paladin. Its not the best equipped of our paladins its "only" nr 3 or 4 .

The results: Pullers say WoW the best I can pull. When theres a single I can run imediately and bring next. He casts on income and aggro is locked on him. Casters say Hey why did we do not do this earlier in game ..

We also use Knights for CC if nessessary ... we knew why.

Now for what do we use our warrior? MT for the most mobs. Paladin MT for specials.

Don't ask me where are the places of knights on raids. They have more than warrior have. Btw. when I group for exp with one of our knights I am only in that time the tank when he isn't interested in beeing it.

And for information I am 330 hp behind our mostHP warrior.

[Kaesorn]

Lamini, that was a pet group. Pet groups don't need tanks...because their pets are their tanks. They chew mobs down so fast that it's very scary at times. They're probably the best groups available at this point in the game, stuff dies fast. The problem is finding enough pet classes that want to do one.

[Battleblade]

And we already disposed of the Warriors have 800 more HPs myth. High level Paladins get a self buff and always have Brells available.

If your group doesn't have a Cleric you chose a Paladin over a Warrior because he comes with buffs for himself and you. You do not choose a Warrior who will likely not have Virtue or Brells.

If your group has a Cleric you choose a Paladin because his Brells and self-buff more than make up the 800 HP Warrior advantage that isn't because he doesn't have Brells.

So please, be honest - in experiance groups it's almost always a Paladin HP advantage AND greater aggro control AND a book full of pretty stickers waiting to make your group get m4d xps.

BB