miss / hit agro

[Casai]

some cut and paste from Gnimwit's post.
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I have found that being disc'd has absolutly nothing to do with my aggro generation. Whether I am aggressive, evasive or defensive. Durring standard exp gorups I've gone so far as to get myself to the borderline of being #1 on hate list (those times when mobs will flip and back forth between two warriors everytime each warrior gets their round of swings in) and have backed off a bit so the mob stops flipping even when I keep my attacks on fulltime (have done this with non-proccing weapons, specifically testing DPS aggro). At these times I've used discs like charge / mightystrike / fellstrike / precise so I could explicitly see if the mob will then flip to me, even though I have the same number of swings as the 60 seconds of previous rounds after establishing getting myself 'borderline'. When I used these discs I got no extra aggro, you'd think if aggro was relying on damage DONE and not a flat ratio/hasted/slowed damage potential that the mob would flip to me for the sudden burst of DPS, but it just wasn't so. Although one taunt later and the mob was back on me and into flip-mode showing me I was still right on the border.

I don't believe actual higher DPS will inrcease my hate more than increased number of swings leading to higher Potential DPS.

EB procs are there to makeup there difference in hate between a Warrior and another melee, or nuker. Crit nukes and heals certainly do not create more aggro than their basline counterparts. It's my belief each nuke/crit/heal is programmed with a very specific amount of hate it will cause, whether it is resisted, whether it lands for full, or partial or even crit. And I honestly beleive melee damage is treated the exact same way, it doesnt matter if we miss, there is hate involved. It doesn't matter if we crit, the amount of hate we create does not increase with the actual damage DONE.

I also beleive that there is a line of code that is missing from the game that would exclude INVULNERABLE attacks from generating as much hate as they do. I've tanked undead mobs with a Reaver (before they were flagged as magic) and have held aggro against players equipped with double feshgrinders which in themselves were great dps for the time. Both weapons were crap for aggro, but even then I suspected aggro was based off potenial damage, not damage done, and I was able to hold aggro more succesfully than the DW FG warrior, both of us 60.

I'm now trying to think of a mob that requires a bane weapon I can go crazy on with a high dps/no proc weapon and pit myself against another warrior with an equivalent ratioed bane weap, just to lay this issue down to rest, and see if I can succesfully pull aggro off him. Maybe I can play around with Valdanov Zefeer or find some other mob that isnt quite seru/emp level and would require a raid to screw around with. If aggro were based specifically on damage done, non-magic arrows shouldn't be able to aggro invulnerable mobs, but they do.


quote:
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2. if you miss with 2h early on while raid give you time to solo mob you wont have shit for agro - thats a fact
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No it isn't a fact. I miss 40% of my swings, by default. That means that there have been PLENTY of times when I have missed and missed and missed for severeal rounds before the rest of the guild engages a mob. I've never had crappy aggro because I kept missing. This is ESPECIALLY apparent when evasive, which is a disc I am a HUGE proponent of and use daily on mini bosses, gods and trash mobs alike. Many warriors skip using evasive all together, it doesn'tmean they hold aggro better than I do just because I am missing more, not even close.
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I think this is well worth deeping into.
My point of view. Misses do cause me to produce agro, very little. DPS is the key to agro along with bash/kick and taunt. Defensive - less agro. I've done mobs with roughly same ppl where I'd go defensive and loose agro and then doing it without defensive I could hold agro much better. Spell criticals do draw agro. I remember wizzie got a critical of 3k early on in fight on mob sure got hosed fast.

On the other hand his test with Reaver are very interesting. I think that things that require bane dmg get agro through the invulnerability. So maybe server still calculating the hits you are doing and just adding them to agro instead of dmg.

Your thoughts plz

edit corrected the damn spelling mistakes:) cant spell to save my lufe.

[Dobbo Baggins]

if a mob attacks you yet doesn't hit you do you not attack it back? i do. i think it would get mad even if you where able to swing. makes good sense. yes more testing is needed.

[EmiliaEQ]

When : 3 hours ago in Plane of Fire
Mob :Arch Mage Yozani
MT : BF/Renderer
Me : BoW

MT Tanks.

At 96% i engage using primal 2H

At 80% Burn mode is called, i get out BoW + Agressive.

30 seconds later , 1 EB proc, .. SPLAT GOES EMILIA

I'm willing to bet anything you want that if i had stayed
with primal and hadnt disc, mob would had stayed on me.

But lets face it, a war dishing 250 dps pisses mobs off

Disc DO HAVE an effect on agro :) They influe on DPS.
And DPS does agro

[Yiktin Voxbane]

There are times, as MT fer my guild (Casual gamers,Post Halls of Testing) when I can hold Aggro just fine using Somborous Claidmore 42/46 With Stat enhancers, yet @ other times I cannot.

there are times, using the Scythe of Sundering and the Ornate Generals Blade That I hold Aggro perfectly well, other times I do not.

Recently Upgraded somewhat, got a Frostbringer and a Spiked Vellium Mallet, Same story....sometimes me a danger magnet :rolleyes: other times me not.

Also been Toying with some axe that has a small damage prevention thingy, seems to be around 70-100 Pts of rune like protection....

What this has *taught* me is that as the warrior you have to be fluid in your thinking,IE the mob seems to not notice ya (lotta SK's and Pallies in guild and I not have me epics yet...Bloody Nutless Golems, mes hatesses themmm....)then ya hafta dive into yer weap bag and try something new. This has, in turn, led me to believe that some mobs have a different series of *Checks* fer the Aggro list.

It seems from my Perspective that some fights the mob cares more about melee damage, Sometimes almost seems as tho Missed hits generate more aggro. Fer some mobs is all about the Procs Generated and sometimes seems to be resisted procs that do *it*

I am guessing this will all change @ I level more and FINALLY complete the bloody epic quest. Just thought I wouuld throw this up @ food fer thought...that some mobs may infact have a differing set of checks fer Aggro.

[thRover]

I don't think different mobs have different checks for aggro, I think it just depends on how much damage you have been doing, how many procs you are landing and what the rest of the group is doing at the time. Sometimes you are going to have bad streaks where you miss a lot while someone else is having a lucky streak and doing lots of DPS, you will likely lose aggro then. Sometimes you hit a lot and proc early and often, then you will be very unlikely to lose aggro. The best defense against this kind of inconsitancy is to raise your attack (via strength and maxing weapon skills), raise your dex (for more procs), and equip the best haste gear you can get your hands on.
As for the idea that dps does not contribute toward gaining/holding aggro, that is just false. I've played around with the evasive disc XP grinding in the planes, and I've found a very clear tendancy. It goes something like this-Mob comes in, I tag it and engage. I taunt and swing away hoping for an early proc to help hold aggro on the slow (I rarely have trouble holding aggro after the slow), once slow is on I put up evasive disc to save the cleric some mana. If there are no undisciplined casters dumping their mana onto the mob I have no problem holding aggro till the end of the fight. Evasive last for something like 10 minute, and this is where the trouble comes in. When the next mob comes in, evasive is still up. I engage the mob and do very little damage with virtually no chance of a proc. When the slow comes in, I have little aggro and the mob jumps. Takes me a while to gain aggro back because my DPS is so low, and my chances of a proc are small too. By the next fight evasive is usually down, now I can do some damage and maybe get an early proc. Now I am holding aggro again. Clearly DPS has a prominent roll in the gaining/keeping of aggro.

[Scaleclad]

As to evasive, I am pretty sure you can at least proc on a miss....though I am not 100 percent sure, I have procced my shm like crazy with his poker and hit very little, where as on my warrior the hit and miss blurs a bit as I have melee and spell in different windows. I am also fairly confident discs make a difference on hate, I have been defenisive on a mobs in PoI (adds or archaics that require some "special" attention) and had one punk of a time with rangers having to jolt more often and monks having to FD or cheals and slows that should not have taken aggro. Have yet to play with evasive alot, grown accustomed to the effect of defensive as an everyday disc. Though the point that intrigued me the most, is the idea that:
Originally posted by Yiktin Voxbane
food fer thought...that some mobs may infact have a differing set of checks fer Aggro.
I tend to agree.....though to what degree I dont know. I have noticed a discrepency in just the PoI (yeah I like this zone) where the rats stick to me like glue, long as I engage first, or taunt off early. Other mobs take some "convinicing" to keep facing me, but rats just stay. I have noticed the same thing in Hates Fury.....I am not sure if its a mob or a geometry with my height to the mob, but darn if rats just love to stay with me as the mt. They dont wander as much as other mobs I have encountered. Anyhow thats my two cents, would love more discussion, as discing defensive and evasive is what makes warriors unique in the battlefield, above innate stat advantages.

[Rodney]

"I engage the mob and do very little damage with virtually no chance of a proc"

I dont understand this why do you think you wont proc?

Rodney
64 Warlord CT

[thRover]

Um...I prolly think I won't proc because I don't. I've never proced on a miss with my Vengeful Yaks. I do remember way back when I used to play a ranger and he was wielding a Wakisashi of the Frozen Skies, he would proc on misses. Maybe its just the weapons I'm using now, maybe it was changed but I've never proc'ed on a miss. My dex is actually higher with my warrior than it was with my ranger so thats not it, and I've been using them for some time so its not a question of it just not happening yet.

[Kamce]

The major factor that I see in maintaining aggro is how much haste I have compared to other melee. I like to think of it as who is most annoying. The faster I am, then the more annoying I am to the mob. This does not mean that it is the number of swings per round but the potential of damage of those swings.

I agree that misses generate some aggro, but I do not believe it is the same as when I connect for damage. I say this only based on those times when I am not the MT. If the MT goes through a streak of misses and I rip off a streak of hits, I will gain aggro because I have become more annoying to the mob. Does this happen every time, no, but it does happen enough to tell me that the aggro generated from misses is not the same as when you hit the mob.

Kamce
62 Warrior
of the Seekers
Tarew Marr

[Khumak]

A swing that misses may indeed generate some aggro. I don't know. But a swing that lands definitely generates MUCH more aggro. Look at some of the big slow 2 handers that don't have procs if you want to see that in action.

I used to use a Windblade. It actually holds aggro surprisingly well for a pre-EB caliber weapon. But if you get a bad luck streak and miss 10 times in a row you WILL lose aggro. By contrast, pop aggressive during a raid with it when someone else is tanking and don't be surprised if you wind up with aggro.

I've done this before using a rocksmasher (47/41 no proc) + aggressive and pulled aggro off our MT who wields Bloodfrenzy + Blade of Carnage. That's about the best aggro combo there is. It doesn't happen often but melee DPS does make a big difference in aggro. Why do you think rogues have evade?

[Derrict]

Originally posted by thRover
Maybe its just the weapons I'm using now, maybe it was changed but I've never proc'ed on a miss.

it could also be that at higher levels, you're hitting the mob at higher percentages than at lower levels and can't tell when it procs (hit or miss). As a rogue, my 2hb skill can't be raised so when I use the OT gate hammer, I miss a ton but it still procs. Who knows.. it could be some weapons only proc on hits while others it doesn't matter.

[Eoden]

I think its harder to tell when you are dual wielding as you are swinging so often that you are consistently hitting the mob, but using a 2 hander it can be pretty clear when you proc on a miss. I know I have had several occasions where I have a huge run of misses but my weapon still procs a couple of times.

I certainly believe that misses can still generate a decent amount of agro, and that discs dont have a huge effect on your ability to maintain agro.

Using JBoW I have had plenty of times where I have engaged a mob and 10 secs has gone by and I still havent landed a hit yet, but other melee have engaged, malo might have landed etc but the mob is still on me despite having dealt absolutely no damage.

As far as discs go I rarely have problems holding the mobs attention while under defensive or evasive though I will concede on the occasions I have lost it I has seemed harder to get agro back.

[Mokor]

yes you get agro from misses. finaly got my ranger buddy and enchanter friend to help me do more testing they hate it. went to ew so we had some green giants to kill something ranger could dank without a healer. broke out the weighted ax and had him go with as much as he thought he needed to keep agro. got sov for haste he has epic haste and i have 21% worn. no taunting from me.

he pulls with bow stands buy me so i don't have to chase the thing. i attack 2 hits get agro. 2-3 seconds later ranger has agro back from dps. i swing again finaly dubble miss regain agro. 2-3 seconds later ranger bank in agro. finaly swing again hit and miss regain agro. mob dies. after the fight we compared dps. he had more but 2 hits at first gave me 578 dammage ook 3 seconds for ranger to have more with spells and procs. at the second swing(only gessing) they counted tward my dps toatal on the mob even hough they didnt hit. 3rd swing same guess real dammage and percived possible dammage by the mob. after 3 tries we guess misses added agro. how much and stuff was unlnown weither min/max damage or inbetween. bu definly get agro from misses.