Paladins as Main Tanks [Archive]

Aeka

08-14-2003, 10:28 AM

No one serious about POP thinks Warriors are undisputed tanks. If you do, you cut yourself off from unusual and effective approaches. Heck sometimes you don't tank at all.

You approach every situation with openly because *gasp* SOE knew Warriors are often preferred tanks and *shock* designed encounters to defeat them. If you constantly stick to classic ideas on how to kill big monsters then you are going to find POP very difficult.

So if /disc defensive is defeated what does a Warrior have left? This is the heart of my concerns. All of the mitigation in the world does NOTHING if SOE designs situations where you can't use it. Why paint do some wish to paint themselves farther into this corner?

Thaak

08-14-2003, 01:07 PM

I'm sure alot of people nodded when they read your post, Aeka.

Phantron

08-14-2003, 02:32 PM

I am not quite sure you can say how Warriors are not undisputed tanks of PoP consider just about every mob does an incredible amount of melee damage. It takes PoTime level of gear to even effectively bridge the gap between Warriors and Knights (Raex is roughly 20% as good as Trydan on top of existing differences). A PoTime equipped Paladin is too close to a Warrior than I think they should but I'm pretty sure most people here aren't complaining about Paladins because they're being replaced by PoTime Paladins.

Mofu-Troll

08-14-2003, 02:49 PM

If there going to start designing boss's/encounters where paladins are the tank of choice , maybe they should start designing in a lil bit of utility for us warriors.

Mofu

Boofus

08-14-2003, 03:17 PM

You will be seeing more of this..

Brutul

08-14-2003, 03:24 PM

Good :) If you're a high-end guild leader and you really want warriors upgraded, start killing EP and time stuff with paladins and SKs main tanking, then post about it here. It only enhances the arguments that warriors need upgrades or paladins need nerfs. I don't know if it's even possible, but if it is, we want to know about it.

We used a SK to tank the cursed the other night, but he is far from a top-tier mob.

Aeka

08-14-2003, 10:09 PM

I definately see what you and others are saying Brutul. The guy who does the drop designs for POP seems to "miss the point" on drops and designs.

As for monster designs, its easy enough. Make a monster to that procs a PB silence. You most certainly don't want a Knight tanking vs a monster that silences or mana drains. I know of a few but why aren't there more? Heck why aren't there exp monsters that have these minor effects?

uhrlik

08-14-2003, 10:20 PM

There's an idea. Take the random illusion proc from Luclin one step further. Design a zone where certain mobs have a random proc; from slow, silence, dd, dot, knockback/stun, illusion, mez, root, curse, etc.

Give different mobs different effects to choose from via RNG (yeah, that streaky RNG working against us some more. :p). That would lead to some challenging encounters.

Aeka

08-14-2003, 10:31 PM

Bingo! A big weakness in SOE's expandsion design has always been the same new monster style everywhere. POP wouldn't have punished Warriors as much if POP style monsters weren't everywhere.

Another interesting idea: if you want stop solo-ers forget goofing around with their resists or whatever goofy thing they've tried before. Simply make the monsters use throwing/archery. If monsters would shoot at the target as they close the distance you could effectively make soloing far more expensive than it is now. Suddenly there is justification for making AA hand over foot because it really is that dangerous against shooting monsters.

Just another evil thought to brighten your day. ^_^

uhrlik

08-14-2003, 10:40 PM

You'd have to do that in a completely wide-open area. Can't give casters trees to hide behind (a'la Lake Rathe aqua goblins and South Karana centaurs) or walls in a dungeon. Unless of course, you plan on giving the mob tracer arrows...

EmiliaEQ

08-14-2003, 11:28 PM

There are some Elemental plane minis that can not be tanked by a paladin (and SK).
Unless of course he has EXTREME luck.

If something hits above 2800k, your survival is almost purely luck based once disc drops.

You WILL get one rounded its just a matter of time.

I know once my disc drops, even at almost 10khp, i'm doomed.

Pal/SK make AWESOME trash tanks, and Agro tanks
(where you dont care about mob DPS, you just need to kill it ASAP)
And they make great tanks for "lesser minis" (stuff that doesnt 2K+)

But as soon as things get really hard (2k+ or Water or Stunners).
Absolutely nothing (well maybe a paladin/sk with a BoW)
Will come close to a warrior.

Pal/Sk are perfectly balanced VS warriors for raiding purposes.

Defensive and AE taunt and our small ac/hp bonus are a HUGE
advantage that will make us winners on almost all boses.
Exept if u have a billion clerics and still they can get 1 rounded
very very easy while a war under disc cant be 1 rounded.
Not to mention the fact they will have a very hard time staying
alive once they get agro and until the CH line switches.

Sure they can tank 1800ers, Sure they can tank Trash like gods.
But hey, when BADASS MOFO01 pops ... They ask the wars to tank.

I've used SK/Pal to MT bosses in earth/air .... and guess what ...
Their agro is just as shitty as ours (thx blurrs & burn fights).

ATM there is no Pal/SK vs War issue during raids
(exept for the shielding problem in TimeB).

There is an issue at xp levels.

Please let us not mix everything.

Daddio

08-15-2003, 12:11 AM

There's some mobs where paladins are more efficient tanks.

So what?

My guild is very open about using knights to tank and off the top of my head we only use knights to tank 4 bosses. None in elementals.

Honestly, if you're a raid tank then you should be looking about winning the encounter, not being so self centered thinking you have to do everything. Warriors have roles beyond just tanking, maybe you should figure out what else your guild needs, and focus on that aspect when there's a mob that is more efficiently tanked by a paladin.

Real raiding warriors aren't threatened by knights in any way, so don't get all uppity when you have no idea what you're talking about. Because in the upper tiers, the balance is still there.

Redhenna

08-15-2003, 01:09 AM

Just another evil thought to brighten your day

Very evil, and both those ideas would be awesome fun.

Sure they can tank 1800ers, Sure they can tank Trash like gods
But hey, when BADASS MOFO01 pops ... They ask the wars to tank.
ATM there is no Pal/SK vs War issue during raids

Exactly, raid balance is not even an issue as far as I can see, and I hate tanking during clearing, it is just no fun at all. Yes, there are raid mobs a pally can tank just fine. Raiding is about a mass of people working together, I for one could care less who does what, or what role I play as long as we get what we are after.

Phantron

08-15-2003, 01:14 AM

The only proc that would make it easier for warriors than Knights would be if the mob proced mana drain. But this proc makes no sense because this anti-aggro ability you put in on the mob is useless on what's still the best tanking class in the game.

Silence would simply cripple the aggro of any tanking class and it's really not solving the problem at all.

At any rate the game does not need special measures to ensure Knights can tank. They still don't tank as well as us anyway, though in the high end a Knight with PoTime gear is getting pretty close to be a warrior's equal. Although as long as have discs a Knight won't be tanking anything that hits more than about 2K, PoTime gear bridging tanking too much is a problem that should be addressed. One easy fix is just to make Raex much better than PoTime gear, because currently Raex is already better than most PoTime counterparts, so Warriors have no reason to upgrade while the Knights creep closer with PoTime gear.

Glatius2

08-15-2003, 02:29 AM

Warriors have roles beyond just tanking, maybe you should figure out what else your guild needs, and focus on that aspect when there's a mob that is more efficiently tanked by a paladin.

I find this an interesting arguement. Because it mirrors exactly what Warriors have been saying to Knights for a couple of years. Particularly to Paladins. Paladins have roles beyond just tanking. In fact, far more numerous roles than a non-tanking Warrior. The only role a non-tanking Warrior has is DPS that is marginally better than a Paladin's. Hardly a major claim to fame. If there ever comes a time that Knights are able to safely tank the majority of boss mobs without defensive, or should they ever get a defensive like ability, expect to see Warriors enmass get the boot from raiding guilds. They'll be replaced. Because without the need for defensive a Paladin brings a much better all around package to the table.

Unless you know something I don't? Are there some secret group heal AAXP for Warriors? Are there some rare items we can find that will allow us to LoH or emergency heal a comrade suddenly dropping low in health? What are our other roles, you obviously know something I don't, please share.

And if I may be so bold, if Paladins haven't been happy for three years with their raid role when not tanking, the one that is much more flexible and useful than ours, why exactly should we be happy to let the Paladins tank?

Real raiding warriors aren't threatened by knights in any way, so don't get all uppity when you have no idea what you're talking about. Because in the upper tiers, the balance is still there.

Wow, that's nice. You think the balance is still there in the upper tiers. Yet Phantron, also an upper tier Warrior, says in the post right before this one that PoTime gear is bridging the tanking gap too much and feels it should be addressed. Now, I don't know anything about the upper tiers, mind you, I only know the mid tier game for the most part. But it appears that in the upper tiers the balance might not be as there as you think.

While you may be right, and Phantron wrong, I suspect it's just as likely it's the reverse. And while I'm pleased that you feel that it's balanced in the upper tiers, that doesn't really address anything for the vast majority of players who aren't and never will be in the upper tiers. Balance shouldn't only be found for the members of a class who have managed to get ahold of the very best items in the game. Why? Because it pretty much screws everyone but perhaps 10% of the people who play. This is not "balance".

Shikarii

08-15-2003, 06:25 AM

Warriros need tuning. Especially in the roles of being Warrior_07 or whatever on a raid or een in an experience group..
Warrior isn't a MT
Warrior isn't a puller
Warrior isn't a healer
Warrior isn't a DoTer/DPS machine.

What can a warrior do when he/she is not doing their role being a dmaage sponge?

Adding Lag. The DPS from Warriors is bleh unless you're at least Elemental Level in weapons..and god forbid you use your ULTRAFOOKINGL33T Blade of War you blew ALL YOUR DKP on.

Warriors need to stack better in all instances. /Shield was a nice start. It's very handy. If that is the direction of utility we're intended to go on; than i'm all for it.

I want to be the one the others can rely on and know no matter what; That 9000 hp 1800AC freakzilla is going to save me somehow.

I don't want spells. I don't want l33t disciplines. I want POWER. I want what I spent the last 3 years I spent being the biggest baddest AC/HP monster to mean SOMETHING besides a 3 minute wonder on a raid.

I know it sounds silly; but something along the Warcry skilltree the Barbarian has in D2 is a good start. LEt the Warrior scream a bloodcurdling howl that lets the group ( or AE ) gain a small bonus to atk/ac/hp's or even like Battle Orders that maximizes ( maybe just add some hp's/atk greater than a basic Warcry ) the ENTIRE GROUP/RAID.

Have it on a small timer like 2 minutes or so; like shield.

Even along the /sheld line; make a critical /sheld effect; where 100% of the damage your sheilding be blocked and reflected to whom did the damage; with maybe a 5 or 10% chance of criticaling. Not imbalanced at all. Think of all the thanks you'd get for turning a blow from some critter hell-bent on smooshing your friendly pasty-white enchanter or any_variety_of_gnome :D.

Give Melee Utility. We don't need spells or anyhting of the like. No more AA's. No more 3month refresh disciplines. Class Ability !! Inborn from level 1 p to level 60. Let the new warriors learn these too and let the confidence we have in ourselves grow again.

Bunnie Burner

08-15-2003, 06:31 AM

Sorry,
but when I see 3 Main tank warriors in my guild (whom one has passed 10k) die to reparm before 50%...
and then I see a Paladin tank Reparm the rest of the 50%... I call unbalance.

When I see out MainTank die at around 70% to hydrotha for unknown reasons,
and a Paladin is called to Tank right after.... while there's still 2 other 9.8k+ tanks available....
I call unbalance.

Our paladin can basically Tank everything we can, there just needs a very minor cheal adjustement.

And when big mofucker spawns.... if it's not a PoFire/Xegony type mofucker...
I suggest you use a paladin to tank... they're better at it then us.

Kaesorn

08-15-2003, 06:57 AM

Heh, and even worse, now paladins are getting aego. All they need is a mini-CH (other than LoH) and clerics are essentially dead.

EmiliaEQ

08-15-2003, 07:22 AM

Sorry,
but when I see 3 Main tank warriors in my guild (whom one has passed 10k) die to reparm before 50%...
and then I see a Paladin tank Reparm the rest of the 50%... I call unbalance

I've seen raperm kill in under 30 seconds 5 wars all with disc on :
9800hp , 9600hp, 9600 hp, 9500hp , 9500hp .

Repeat after me .. RAPERM IS 100000% LUCK BASED FIGHT.

Skills hp/ac or any other parameter are completely irrelevant.

He procs ? you loose (or DI)
He doesnt proc ? you Win

When I see out MainTank die at around 70% to hydrotha for unknown reasons,
and a Paladin is called to Tank right after.... while there's still 2 other 9.8k+ tanks available....
I call unbalance.

Send that paladin to rampage on magmaton (when short on healers)
Send that paladin MT blazaax.

Once totally debuffed hydrotha isnt a monster

Our paladin can basically Tank everything we can, there just needs a very minor cheal adjustement.

Well sometimes you dont have those 3-6 extra clerics/druids

And when big mofucker spawns.... if it's not a PoFire/Xegony type mofucker...
I suggest you use a paladin to tank... they're better at it then us.

Thats mudflation :)

Want pics of a chanter tanking slowed SoRZ and IoRZ ?
Want pics of a ranger tanking AoW ? A rogue ?

When we all first entered fire, NO WAY a pal/sk would tank a mini.
Now they can. Its anoying ,but thats mudflation.

I remember changing MT on AoW before disc even dropped.
Now a rogue can tank him (Drexen did) ....
Agreed with Trydan/Grimror mudflation of Pal/SK was faster and harder.
But its unavoidable, and a natural process.

Send 2 paladins to MT & RT on magmaton ....
Now Sent 2 warriors to do the same job ....
Count the number of healers needed :)

Warriors are here to tank :
- When you first enter a zone
- When BADASSMOFO-01 pops

(Didnt say i like it, but i've learned to live with it)

Trondir

08-15-2003, 07:36 AM

BigAlFoxTrot

08-15-2003, 07:56 AM

All the bull about Pallys being useless on raids.

http://pub148.ezboard.com/fpaladinsofnorrathgeneral.showMessage?topicID=1865 1.topic

"Kneesmasher
Wandering Knight
Posts: 313
(8/14/03 8:13 am)
Reply
ezSupporter
Re: We're loved ...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The bottom line is....Paladins are a kick ass raiding class. Our flexibility makes us very desireable. We can off-tank, DA pull, Stun, Wave Heal, Spam Heal, and hold aggro very very well. When it comes to raiding, Paladins kick ass!
Dwarven Lord Protector - Kneesmasher Ayebulger

"Never Mistake Kindess for Weakness"
"

Straight from their own mouth.

Redhenna

08-15-2003, 08:28 AM

I don't think you are actually going to find too many people to dispute that. I love pallies on raids, they do awesome things. Our number one pally poster here has said that pallies have a great raid role.

BigAlFoxTrot

08-15-2003, 08:48 AM

Sure they have many uses on raids and they stack well.

So how come one of the first arguments they use for class balance is "well warriors are more wanted in raids. So we have a better advantage in xp groups"

That was my point. It's the ones who come here and post that bullsh$it.

Anyway, I finally registered here cause I was getting so pissed to hear as I was leaving xp groups "Ok, let's get a pally" (to replace me)

I mean I haven't even left the group yet guys, it's a slap in the face.
(I'm not an uber warrior, 6600 hp buffed with Great Blade of Storm and Copper Hammer of Striking as agro weapons)

Or when I'm in a group that's just forming and get an invite and then they start specifically looking for a Pally. They aren't even thinking of me as an MT, I'm just a filler spot.

It's happening alot. We are second class tanks to everyone, it's not some secret or some small percentage of people that think it anymore.

Redhenna

08-15-2003, 09:16 AM

Again tho, you have a few knights who say wild things like that, but far and away most of them agree, they have a great raid role(if anything better than ours), and that for exp group balancing, something needs to be done to help warriors.

Any yeah, I know the feeling with exp groups. Another is when you replace a knight in group, and you just know that at least the first few pulls are going to be unpleasant, and you hope that the people can actually adjust(alot nowadays cannot or will not). It is worse sometimes when I play my mage, and hearing some of the comments made when the group has to find a new tank.

Phantron

08-15-2003, 03:37 PM

Paladins are exremely overpowered, but their abilities do not stack well on raids where the most important ability to have is DPS. They're typically limited to offtanking but this is something the extra warrior can do (and usually much better, unless you can't kill the mob). While Paladin will get the aggro quicker there are rarely any aggro issues related to offtanking. The Paladin's heals are good for fights that do a lot of AE damage but not all fights do significant AE damage. I have never heard of any guilds trying to recruit Paladins in large numbers. While they can do a lot of good things it is more effcient to replace Paladins with DPS for most PoP fights (but leave 2-3 around, of course).

Paladins in my guild are within 300 HP of me (9600-9700) and that gap will only get shorter since we are still in elemental gear. I do not think Paladins will tank as long as /disc exists at least for the mobs where survival is an issue, but that doesn't mean this balance is right.

Daddio

08-15-2003, 09:50 PM

Yet Phantron, also an upper tier Warrior, says in the post right before this one that PoTime gear is bridging the tanking gap too much and feels it should be addressed.

Phantron and I just have different views on the same situation, I don't compare my usefullness on a raid to other classes.

I can maintain over 200dps; I'm equipped to tank any mob in the game, and mitigate better than any class in the game for a percentage of that fight; If needed I have the knowledge to lead multiple aspects of a raid; I can instantly gain agro on most mobs (aetaunt); I can lock agro on any mob very quickly (if I'm not slowed)

I'm sure Phantron has all these same traits, but then he looks at a pally and feels underpowered, where I just consider what I'm able to do and feel perfectly capable. It's two valid views, we may not be the best at everything, but warriors are still perfectly capable of doing what we were meant to do. I don't really care if a paladin tanks once in awhile, because I know for the vast majority of encounters it's to the raid's advantage to use a defensive tank. I never lose agro so that isn't even an issue for me. Who cares if paladins are somewhat overpwered in the endgame? It doesn't my ability to do my job.

Ainian

08-16-2003, 12:48 AM

Paladin in my guild is at 10109hp and 2200ac buffed.

Warriors undisputed HP/AC kings?

Our Top Warrior is 10200/2100.

It's because of this stupid fucking buff, (http://lucy.fnord.net/spell.html?id=3247&source=Test) that any advantage we get from our greater STA returns is completely negated. If this spell was on a Cleric, it would be overwritten by the Shaman "Focus" line. I seriously do not understand why this shit stacks with raid-level buffs. I can't comprehend the reasoning behind it.

Glatius2

08-16-2003, 01:38 AM

I'm sure Phantron has all these same traits, but then he looks at a pally and feels underpowered, where I just consider what I'm able to do and feel perfectly capable. It's two valid views, we may not be the best at everything, but warriors are still perfectly capable of doing what we were meant to do. I don't really care if a paladin tanks once in awhile, because I know for the vast majority of encounters it's to the raid's advantage to use a defensive tank. I never lose agro so that isn't even an issue for me. Who cares if paladins are somewhat overpwered in the endgame? It doesn't my ability to do my job.

Well I'm happy for you and your macho delusions of grandeur. I'm sure you're just the uber Warrior incarnate, avatar of the true Warrior spirit, blah blah blah, yadda yadda yadda. But I have much simpler expectations. I expect to log onto the game and feel that my time is just as well spent as any other tank class' and I'm considered just as desirable because the game gives me the tools to my job just as well as any other tank class. You may think that's true today, but you aren't the one setting up groups. You're not the shaman, cleric, or enchanter who insists on passing by the Warrior to grab the Knight, even if they're in lesser gear, have fewer AAXP, and are even a level or two lower.

The game is currently unbalanced. Your insistance that it isn't and every thing is just peachy because you're leading raids and so forth doesn't change the reality.

Frodlin7th

08-16-2003, 03:08 AM

Gay double posts

Frodlin7th

08-16-2003, 03:09 AM

Send 2 paladins to MT & RT on magmaton ....
Now Sent 2 warriors to do the same job ....
Count the number of healers needed

A Paladin with a 1 group attainable hammer from Grieg's End will SLAUGHTER anyone else at RTing Magmaton, Krizik, etc. Remember, DA will not wipe you from rampage list.

Varatho

08-16-2003, 03:35 AM

You can delete your own posts you know.

Daddio

08-16-2003, 04:42 AM

Glatius,

I was simply responding to your query about how phantron's and I differed in opinons, I wasn't trying to beef up my ego or put anybody down.

Next thing you need to realise is that this thread is talking about raiding warriors, I'm not quite sure what thread you're responding to here, but the origin of this thread had nothing to do with pickup groups.

So in effect, if you aren't in a raiding guild, you really have nothing to add to this thread, just sit back and try to keep an open mind. I have nothing to gain from decieving you about high end raiding warriors.

I admit I don't have much knowledge about the curent situation of pickup groups, I don't join pickup groups unless they're in the elementals and generally I don't even exp anymore (if i do I box my own group.) Luckily this thread isn't about pickup groups, so I have valid observations.

Glatius2

08-16-2003, 10:42 AM

So in effect, if you aren't in a raiding guild, you really have nothing to add to this thread, just sit back and try to keep an open mind. I have nothing to gain from decieving you about high end raiding warriors.

Well I certainly apperciate the polite way you've gone about telling me to shut up and sit down. I suppose if one is going to have their opinion completely discounted it's best if it's done politely. Thanks much.

But you see, you are stroking your ego. You're trying to claim that because you personally can organize raids this somehow plays into class balance. I hate to break it to you, but being able to lead raids is not a Warrior class balance ability. Even I as a non-upper tier Warrior know this. Why do I say this? Because of this quote of yours just below.

I can maintain over 200dps; I'm equipped to tank any mob in the game, and mitigate better than any class in the game for a percentage of that fight; If needed I have the knowledge to lead multiple aspects of a raid; I can instantly gain agro on most mobs (aetaunt); I can lock agro on any mob very quickly (if I'm not slowed)

"If needed I have the knowledge to lead multiple aspects of a raid". Friend you're stroking your ego, this has nothing to do with class balance or abilities at the upper or lower end of the game. I'm sure there are just as many Paladins around that can make the same claim. Hell, there are probably just as many Enchanters around who can do the same. Which leads me to believe that you're allowing your own sense of self importantance to color your perceptions. Maybe I'm wrong. But you have yet to show me that I am. In fact your attitude in your most recent post just reinforces my belief.

But anyway, I'll go away and let you boys have fun trying to prove who's is bigger than who's. Obviously my non-upper tier member isn't desired in this discussion.

Daddio

08-16-2003, 10:49 AM

I just meant it to show that beyond tanking, warriors can do other stuff on raids, although i see how it could come off the wrong way. No it may not be a defined class abilty, but if you're bored on a raid you aren't looking for stuff to do.

Aeka

08-16-2003, 12:50 PM

I am curious...what do Warriors do in a raid if they aren't tanking? I ask this for information and not as attack.

Chatja ogre

08-16-2003, 02:20 PM

Offtank, shield, taunt, offtaunt !

All that can keep a person pretty busy for a long raid

Glatius2

08-16-2003, 03:06 PM

Offtank is tanking, it's just not MTing. Shield, well that's fun and all for 8 seconds or a bit longer if you have the right AAXP. Taunt and offtaunt? Forgive my non-upper tier ignorance, but if you aren't tanking and don't intend to be tanking, why would you be taunting?

Still in all, it sounds like other than shield everything you mention is a form of tanking. And actually shield is as well, in as much as it's using the Warrior's HP pull to absorb damage. So if Warriors aren't doing some form of tanking, be it MTing or offtanking, what do they bring to a raid other than marginal DPS?

And please don't tell me raid administration. Because that is not a Warrior specific game generated ability.

Valeris

08-16-2003, 03:20 PM

In some ways you could call our lack of extra's a plus I suppose. I always spent most raids (being about 5-6th on the tanking scale) watching the rear of the raid, making sure people were 'with the program' and ready to offtank adds & shield casters etc if neccessary, I like to think i made a difference in such situations, weren't many times someone beat me to locking down an add.

You do have more time on your hands without spells and stuff i guess. I know one of our raid leaders went from playing his wizard to resurrecting his overlord since he felt he could better conduct raids from that position 'on the ground'.

As I say, It 'can' keep you busy, then again I ended up VERY bored on many raids because there's only so many adds to tank, only so much to help with heh.

Chatja ogre

08-16-2003, 03:25 PM

Glatius2

08-16-2003, 05:26 PM

Pipe down guy. What you are saying here is that you either do damage or you tank. Good work of making EQ that simple! I'll leave you to whatever new class or game you hopefully are going for!

Yes, for Warriors it comes down to tanking or doing damage. We'd already figured that out. We do two things and only two things. One thing we do is pretty piss poor, relatively speaking, and that is DPS. The other thing we do we're supposed to be clearly superior at because it is our claim to fame, our reason for existance, our sole significant functionality that isn't completely overshadowed by some other class.

Now, the question was, what do Warriors do when not tanking? You answered with all sorts of different kinds of tanking. Different forms of tanking are still tanking. So your answer didn't address the question. And now you have the balls to tell me to pipe down and insinuate I'm the idiot.

Phantron

08-16-2003, 06:01 PM

When you're not tanking you do damage. It's no different than how a monk gets to do subpar damage (if they don't have the 2H from Time/EPs) when they're not pulling, and especially in Time monks don't really get to pull very much. Phase 2 stuff seem to be too hard to split with FD and phase 3 you just bring everything anyway, and a bard is way better since nothing see invis and virtually everything is snareable or mezzable. I have had a lot of monks who were just unlucky with PoP 2handers saying it seems like I do more damage than they do. I'm not sure if I actually do but if you think it's bad we are relegated to DPS duty, it's got to be worse for a class that typically is considered DPS to be worried about being outdamaged by a warrior. Monks most certainly don't tank anything at all on the raid level.

Just because I think warriors are alright on the high end doesn't mean there isn't something wrong with the Knights, and especially Paladins. Aura of the Crusader basically negates whatever HP advantage we have. My role in a raid isn't threatened by a Paladin, but that doesn't mean they are supposed to creep within 100 HP and sometimes have more AC than I do because they can use a shield without losing aggro.

IMO, Warriors should be about 10% better at tanking, since that's what Raex armor seems to imply (Raex is about 20% better than Knight elemental but Raex is less than half of the slots). So if you say a Knight is 10000 HP/2000 AC, I think we should be at something like 10500 HP/2100 AC. Although it'd be simple to say we should have 11000 HP/2000 AC, that kind of HP lead is not realistic with the current item schemes unless all Raex pieces have an extra 100 HP tacked on them. But I think asking for 500 more HP and ~100 AC than Knights is fair. That translates to around 11% better tanking assuming 1 AC = 6 HP. I think that will be an adequate tanking advantage to offset the ease of aggro Knights get.

We need to be better than Knight by at least a shield or so of stats (which would be 85 AC 200 HP with Time gear) because a Knight can always use a shield without fear of losing aggro, while warriors cannot. Coincidentally, a shield at 85 AC 200 HP + Aura of Crusader is just about the same as the 100 AC 500 HP I'm asking, so I'm lead to believe that the balance was supposed to be there. It's that whoever designed the items totally forgot about the shield advantage and made Aura of the Crusader stack with raid buffs.

Chatja ogre

08-16-2003, 07:03 PM

Now, the question was, what do Warriors do when not tanking? You answered with all sorts of different kinds of tanking. Different forms of tanking are still tanking. So your answer didn't address the question. And now you have the balls to tell me to pipe down and insinuate I'm the idiot.

Hah? Tanking, taking damage, a warriors role is alot more detailed, then what you just made it out to be (in my eyes) You cant just disregard all the different aspects to taking damage and say "But its all tanking and when we dont do that ..." because we clearly cant do anything else *at all* in entire EQ, then do damage or take it! Ofcourse, there is buffing also, but is EQ only 3 things? Each aspect is alot broader and we do have some utility that makes us useful, but it requires max attention and can be very tedious compared to just MTing or nuking as a wizard.

Aeka

08-16-2003, 07:29 PM

Originally posted by Chatja ogre
Offtank, shield, taunt, offtaunt !

All that can keep a person pretty busy for a long raid

That can keep one Warrior and their healer busy. How about other Warriors? What happens if there are more Warriors than tankables? Idealistic raid conditions strive to make this happen.

Phantron

08-16-2003, 07:43 PM

If you can raid with ideal situaiton then you'd have somewhere between 2-3 of every class besides Clerics, Wizards, and Rogues. Since this never happens, you just have to accept some people will just be extra baggage/sub par DPS. The Paladins beyond about the first 2 are excess baggage too unless fighting undead, assuming a reasonably smooth fight (a Paladin's usefulness increases significantly the more messy a fight gets). In general if a fight isn't giving your guild a lot of trouble then by definition a lot of people are baggage because you can replace any non healer person with a DPS person instead.

Besides, a lot of classes feel they're baggage regardless of the situation. I've heard of bards complaining extra bards don't help even though currently in PoTime you can have a bard in a group that only sings either Veeshan or Rizlona and go afk the whole fight and still be more useful than just about anyone else. Just because you feel useless at a raid doesn't mean you're actually useless, at least until the days people raid with 20 rogues and 20 wizards. Maybe then you can say the extra warrior is useless... but then so is the extra paladin or SK or just about any non healers.

Chatja ogre

08-16-2003, 08:59 PM

That can keep one Warrior and their healer busy. How about other Warriors? What happens if there are more Warriors than tankables? Idealistic raid conditions strive to make this happen.

What happens when you have 20 pallies? What happens when you have 20 clerics? What happens when you have .... ?

Kellaen

08-16-2003, 09:31 PM

When you have 20 clerics you shit your pants in joy at that type of turnout. You have 20 warriors you laugh at the lag waste the other 15 cause.

Gimmel

08-16-2003, 10:25 PM

It's far more useful to have more warriors than needed than having more clerics than needed.

Aeka

08-17-2003, 12:57 AM

When a Warrior isn't need to tank then I guess thats all well and good to do what? I really think Warriors lack skills. It is reflected in exp groups and has a side effect in raids.

But I guess I was wrong so I give up. You guys are right. I was foolish to think Warriors needed a little help with things to do during raids.

So keep /disc defensive and embrace your great secondary role: waiting for the Warrior ahead of you to die.

Phantron

08-17-2003, 04:32 AM

I'll say this again, just because you're not playing the hero saving the raid doesn't mean you're not contributing. Just becuase your role is boring, and that a Wizard/Rogue would've been more useful replacing you (or any other nonhealer class) doesn't mean you're useless.

What does a Ranger do on a mob that you can't use bows on (and there's a lot of those)? Rangers rarely win 2H weapons so their DW DPS certainly isn't as high as where they should be relative to the 2H using classes so once again you have a mostly DPS class worrying about being outdamaged by that extra Warrior over there. Magicians still spend a lot of time summoning rods (though elemental pants help a lot). Extra necros usually just end up feeding more mana to clerics.

My role on most raid is to do DPS because a good raid is one that never gets to me in tanking, and I happen to do more DPS than the stupidly overpowered Paladin too. If something goes wrong, then yeah I get to tank and the overpowered Paladins gets to use their cool spells, but I'll gladly be doing subpar damage and never having to tank and win all our fights then hoping the raid will go bad so I get to play the hero.

Glatius2

08-17-2003, 04:33 AM

Ofcourse, there is buffing also, but is EQ only 3 things? Each aspect is alot broader and we do have some utility that makes us useful, but it requires max attention and can be very tedious compared to just MTing or nuking as a wizard.

Buffing
De-buffing
Healing
Damage absorption
Damage dealing
Damage prevention (runes, stuns, and so forth)
Crowd control (root, mezz, off tanking and so forth)

Now you can reasonably argue that off tanking is also a form of crowd control. So Warriors fit into two catagories, damage absorption and damage dealing, and kind of fit into a third catagory in a limited fashion, crowd control. But it isn't as complex as you would have us believe and Warrior usefulness is one of the most limited in the game.

What are we best at? Absorbing damage. What do we add if not absorbing damage in some fashion? Things easily surpassed by any number of other classes. And it really is that simple.

I happen to think it shouldn't be, but it is. And trying to paint it as being more complex than that is self deceit. Don't misunderstand, I'm not saying that raiding can't be challenging and raiding can't be interesting. I am saying that when not absorbing damage Warriors are one of the most replaceable classes in the game. And have one of the least interesting parts to play on a raid.

Valeris

08-17-2003, 04:56 AM

Phantron, All well and good except it's the 'method' in which things stack that's the problem

Compare drop in the ocean DPS with situationally massive damage like a ranger (far more mobs CAN be attacked by a Bow than 'need' more than one or even 3 warriors). Rangers often contribute in other area's also, not a massive amount perhaps but it's there and it's active.

Mages and others may find dropping rods etc 'boring' but it's an 'active' contribution as is buffing, remove curse duty etc etc. None of these activities are unneccessary when the raid runs according to plan.

When you're on a raid and everything is going smoothly you provide very little to the raid, you cannot actively contribute anything toward the raid via class abilities etc. etc. No adds, or only enough adds that you're not required to offtank and you get to sit on your fanny. You can help yourself by 'keeping yourself busy' but at the end of the day there's only so much you can do especially when all the other warriors are looking for some purpose also :) not to mention other people (my old guild used a ranger as Main assist, cause he stood back with archery thus giving him an clear overview, everytime you offtank an add there is often at least 2 other warriors you're 'racing' not to mention any and all of the knights, melee hybrids etc :p )

Steenky

08-17-2003, 07:29 AM

It's far more useful to have more warriors than needed than having more clerics than needed.

This is true since DPS stacks and healing after a point does not.

Valeris

08-17-2003, 08:05 AM

Let em get out their hammers and add DPS then :p

no, this is not a particularly serious post but do you see where I'm going here? :)

Chatja ogre

08-17-2003, 08:40 AM

Glatius,

You started making it all out simple and now add more aspects to EQ? I hope you can see that your 2 points of view do not fit together and that warriors are not useless on raids, but I'll give you that warriors are only good at soaking damage up and everything else we can just do, but not be the best at.

Aeka

08-17-2003, 10:09 AM

It is a question meant to be more rehtorical and get players to think about what do they really do in raid. If you are the MT/MA (these can be seperate) you probably think Warriors are happy and active during the raid. If you are at the bottom of the Warrior totem pole then what do you really do? Are you sure it isn't spending the entire raid waiting for the ones in front of you to die?

We can spend all day asking hypotheticals but I'm not entirely sure that is productive. What does a Ranger when they can't shoot? They melee. That is their backup plan. Once again I would like to point out no one has yet suggested something interesting for Warriors to do during raids as their secondary skill.

I would also at this point like to point out to those that want super mitigation one weakness in the design: it only benifits the top end. If you guild fields many Warriors during a raid the RL will plan to use only the top ones. The rest are "spare tires" kept as rainy day backups. Even with super mitigation that 8th Warrior in the lineup is going to be not used a lot.

That is the reason why this is topical: When you can't use a Warrior to tank what do you do? Times will come when Warriors aren't allowed to tank. It doesn't matter who is tanking. Even if a Warrior is tanking what does your spare Warriors do? If it is "hang around till I'm needed" and you think that is grand, then say so.

Glatius2

08-17-2003, 10:13 AM

You started making it all out simple and now add more aspects to EQ?

Chatja, what you fail to understand is that for the Warrior class it is simple. Mediocre damage or the best damage absorption. That's it. And that has been my point all a long. My stand hasn't changed because Warrior functionality hasn't changed. Nor have you added anything meaningful to your arguement. Warriors either are tanking or you should really have another class there in their place. Much like you really should have Clerics healing and if you don't need their healing you're better off with another class in their place.

So other than the fact that your arguement has no value, you win, okay?

Redhenna

08-17-2003, 10:41 AM

If you are at the bottom of the Warrior totem pole then what do you really do?
What does a Ranger when they can't shoot? They melee. That is their backup plan

Doesn't that kinda answer your own question? When you cannot tank, you stack a little added DPS. It is not great DPS, but it does all stack. As long as I am allowed to go on the raid, what role, or how much I truly add due to the nature of my class is irrelevant. I am there, I am contributing, and I am gaining DKP, and maybe even getting a drop. I will say that currently I am MT 70 % of time, ST 25 % of time, so my views may be skewed just a tad(I relish that 5 % of the time when I can just autoattack and sit back, kinda relaxing).

Mediocre damage or the best damage absorption

Its a tradeoff, and I do not think it will change significantly. If you are the best at something, you simply will be limited in what else you can do, simply for balance reasons. I am glad that the class I finally stuck with past level 12 was a warrior(I knew nothing of these issues then, just got lucky), as I revel in the role of tanking, both in exp groups(when they happen, rare lately, tho I am badly in need) and in raiding. While I do not think that the role of Main Tank is more important than other roles, I do find it exhilerating(and kinda understand why some knights are so jealous of us having that raid role). It is worth it to me to have my other raid role be mediocre damage(and great lag added), as long as once in awhile, I can step forward, and be the best of any class at that one job.

Looking back over this post(no spell checker, so have to proofread, and still miss crap), I don't think I added anything much to the discusion...but it's morning, not enough caffiene in the system, and I am allowed to ramble once in awhile.

Daddio

08-17-2003, 10:44 AM

Our dps is pretty good with a high end 2hander. With BoW I pass 200dps regularly while raid buffed, so I'd imagine that with a superior dps weapon you might be able to maintain 250+dps, which is comparable to a rogue with fennin dagger, or pretty much any caster.

Graal the Dorf

08-17-2003, 10:57 AM

Just wanted to address something that Phantron said:

IMO, Warriors should be about 10% better at tanking

The problem with that is that the tanking difference isn't static; it doesn't scale at all.

When fighting relatively easy xp mobs, a 10% difference in tanking ability is for the most part functionally the same. A warrior with 7700 hp and a paladin with 7000 hp are going to basically tank the same in BoT or PoV. If the tanks are able to easily survive combat without needing an immediate CH, the tanking difference will essentially be small enough to be unnoticeable except in a very few circumstances.

When you get to the point where the question is "can I survive until CH lands" each percentage of tanking difference makes an exponential difference in surviveability.

A 10% difference in tanking (which is what I currently think the difference is between knights and warriors) will have little or no impact in xp groups but make for massive differences in raid tanking.

I kind of like that setup myself, but it makes it hard to qualify what you mean by a "10% advantage in tanking". And of course, there is the gear factor. What is your average? The fact that gear makes up a very substantial portion of hp means that it will not be uncommon for a knight to have more hp than a warrior simply due to gear differences. The problem then becomes defining which part of the gear curve needs to be addressed the most.

And then the question becomes: if warriors and knights tanking abilities are not substantially different for experience groups, what extras does a warrior bring to the group?

Chatja ogre

08-17-2003, 11:14 AM

Mystaviant

08-17-2003, 11:46 AM

Sigh, I dont get what the hell you are all so pissed about.

My main is a bard. There are at best 1 bard for every 50 warriors, so needless to say, I am very very often the only bard in the raid. My actions affect a lot of raids in a big way, and my death can easily mean a wipe...

Ya know what? I hate that shit. My favorite toon is a monk. Why? cause all he can do is /attack, and hit the kick button every now and again. Oh? You say he can pull? Bullshit, my bard can pull circles around him, or any monk. All he is is DPS, and thats great. I also play a shaman, and after debuffs and slow, all I can do is a few weak nukes, maybe a dot or two, if the 30 debuff slots arent full, and a few heals here and there, and mainly sit on my butt and med. And thats GREAT too.

Lets say you are warrior #17, and you are only doing DPS and nothing else....SO WHAT!

You are getting DKP/Gear
You are with your friends and guild
You are helping

Dont bitch about easy DKP. Damn, I would love to go on one raid where I didnt get my ass handed to me simply because all the "tank" gear always goes to the tanks, even tho it damn near all says "brd" on it, and stupid AoE mana/resists pisses the hell outta any and all unengaged adds we get, causing them to make a b-line to me, and damn near one-round my ass.

Daddio

08-17-2003, 11:53 AM

No

Descriptive, but I'm not sure your argument is well grounded.

Redhenna

08-17-2003, 11:58 AM

Mystaviant,loved your post. God a couple chuckles, and you made a good point. As far as bards in raids, the story that sticks in my minds is this:

My guild is pretty new, and was formed by a bunch of people from what had at one time been the top guild on server(basicly from RoK to SoL they had every first on server, or close to it) that disolved a couple months ago. People like I came in thru friends who where in the guild, to flesh out numbers and fill neaded holes. A bard we had picked up logged on one day long enough to say that EQ was just stressing him out too much, and he was quitting game. One of the old school oldtimers commented that it was a pattern with bards. They can do so much, and felt so much pressure to do it all that after awhile, they just burned out.

Like I said in my earlier post, sometimes I love just being DPS, and not having my every(and all too common yet, learning curves suck sometimes) mistake by highly visable, and potentially causing a whipe. On the other hand, I do so love standing over the dead body of whatever mob and being able to say 'I tanked that shit'.

Glatius2

08-17-2003, 12:27 PM

Like I said in my earlier post, sometimes I love just being DPS, and not having my every(and all too common yet, learning curves suck sometimes) mistake by highly visable, and potentially causing a whipe. On the other hand, I do so love standing over the dead body of whatever mob and being able to say 'I tanked that shit'.

Well and good. No one says a particular tank must be tanking all the time. But as you use tanks other than Warriors to tank mobs, you reduce the value of a Warrior even more. For example, if you started using Druids to heal rather than Clerics for some reason, how might the Clerics feel when they showed up to the raid and were told to nuke? It might have novelty value the first time, it might even be a relief at first not to have to deal with the stress, but after a while do you think they'd feel useful and well used?

So not having a Warrior tank once in a while may be fine. But the more that becomes the norm and not the exception the more you reduce the value of your Warrior. And having a Warrior who almost never tanks is like having a Cleric who almost never heals. You're really not getting as much bang for you buck and if you don't need their tanking that much, you probably shouldn't have them on the crew. Unlike say Wizards, a class you can't really have enough of, or Rogues.

As far as Warriors doing reasonably good DPS with high end weapons and maxed AAXPs, can you truly say that a Mage/Beastlord/Wizard/several other examples, with gear of a similar caliber couldn't do more damage?

Madronedorf

08-17-2003, 01:42 PM

A Paladin with a 1 group attainable hammer from Grieg's End will SLAUGHTER anyone else at RTing Magmaton, Krizik, etc. Remember, DA will not wipe you from rampage list.[QUOTE]

Sorry for the derail, but this bit of info seems useful if true.... however it doesnt seem true, I've pulled Solro to be offtank, and then popped DA, and he paged healers once it started, and once it faded it went to back to me, however Its only one case where I tested so its not really an accurate sample....

Redhenna

08-17-2003, 02:27 PM

I am not 100 % disagreeing with you glatius, but guilds will always need warriors for raiding, we do have a role, and I truly do not believe they are going to change classes significantly enough to make every class equally valuable to raid guilds. You will only ever need a very few shaman, a certain number of SK's, a handfull of warrios...if you are not a CH or high DPS class, you will almost always be in lesser demand for raiding guilds. When I do not tank, my role is very small, but I find it is made up for by the times I do get to tank. I admit this is just a personal feeling, but it does color my opinion on this subject.

Glatius2

08-17-2003, 02:35 PM

When I do not tank, my role is very small, but I find it is made up for by the times I do get to tank.

Maybe so, but what if Paladins received defensive or a variation there of? What if it got to the point that mudflation made defensive unnessary or the need for it exceedingly rare? What then? What would happen if a Paladin could easily and regularly step into the MT position with little or no trouble? How might that impact Warriors game wide? And doesn't it seem like with every expansion we get one step closer to this? And how would you, as a Warrior who isn't allowed to tank regularly because you're number 6 or 7 on the list, feel about seeing a Paladin step up and do the thing your class is supposed to be the best at while you're dishing mediocre damage?

Phantron

08-17-2003, 03:24 PM

Warriors tanking 10% better than Knights obviously refers to having the same gear.

Redhenna

08-17-2003, 04:52 PM

Maybe so, but what if Paladins received defensive or a variation there of

I certainly hope that does not happen, it would all but kill our class. If it ever does get to a point where pallies arethe preffered raid tank, then there will be no more use for warriors. I do not think it will come to pass, tho I agree, it has gotten too close to it. But it does not bother me if, occasionally, if they are the best choice, they do get to tank.

Aeka

08-17-2003, 04:59 PM

I wasn't entertaining the possiblity of defensive for any other class. My point is I saw at the start that a Warrior is upset that a Paladin is tanking something big. What I see is a more general complaint.

If a monster is Paladin tanked that is wrong. Why? Because it puts a Warrior out of a job on the raid*. If the monster was Warrior tanked instead of Paladin tanked there is joy and jubilation. What is the difference? There are still Warriors hanging around still not tanking. The only difference appears to be that a Warrior is depricating Warriors instead of a Paladin doing it.

I see this as another aspect of the skill problem. If Warriors had more to do than watch the Paladin tank the monster most might not care who tanks.

* This isn't my assertion but others. There is no real subjective problem with using the best fit for the situation.

Glatius2

08-17-2003, 06:38 PM

The only difference appears to be that a Warrior is depricating Warriors instead of a Paladin doing it.

Well we can't all tank it. And as long as the keep it Warrior only for the most part, then people have something to shoot for. Take it off Warrior plates in the majority of cases and they had better add in a whole butt load of utility functions for Warriors to do instead. Kind of like they have a butt load of utility functions for Paladins, because they typically don't get to MT the big boys.

Me, I'd love to have more to do on a raid when not MTing. I don't see that happening any time soon though, do you? Hell they can't even address the whole aggro disparity problem after almost a year.

Tarean

08-19-2003, 07:17 AM

From my experience in raiding, warriors are viable dps. Imagin having 7 warriors, our current average. 2 end up tanking, the rest are dps. Think about 100dps per warrior, thats 700dps from our warriors at that raid (yes, one CoD pet, not the point). Thats nothing to scoff at, and its does stack.

Keep in mind that a warriors optimal DPS is reached much more easily than just about any class. We dont need mana, the buffs we need to do our top dps are few and last a very long time. We just need to target the mob, and hit attack. Personally, I can sustain my optimal dps for 6 mins straight at a time, then soon as I proc primal, another 6 mins. Just about constant. Other classes depend on certain abilities (trueshot) or mana/agro. We don't need to deal with those to add our dps, so we are more dependable. Granted, we dont do the massive dps of a wiz or a CoD pet, but we are very reliable.

That said, I wouldn't mind some extra things to do when I'm not MT'ing. But I'd rather have our agro issues addressed first compared to our raid roles.

Xarim

08-19-2003, 07:17 AM

/rant on

I am pretty much tired of Paladins. When I am in a group, with a paladin, who is 1 level higher then me, and has 800hp less then me, and I have 100ac more then him, why does he get chose to tank? And this is an xp group. We do a small BoT key raid in PoS. He is MT. Not sure how that worked out. We had only 2-3 clerics, more then enough. But against named mobs that werent slowable. That just pissed me off to no end. I am a WARRIOR. I chose this class because back then we were "needed" to tank. If you look at most pally 1hs weapons, they are insane compared to even the best warrior only 1hs. Guess this helps them "keep aggro." I can go on and on. I stay lfg for hours while all knights in zone get groups. If I am not tanking in a group, for a good reason, I have no reason to be there. That is the only reason I have this toon. And I am being replaced by knights. Someone shoot me.

/rant off

Battleblade

08-19-2003, 09:20 AM

I've seen a number of assertions in various places that I disagree with.

1. Warriors do not have a problem getting groups compared to simularly equipped Knights.

I call BS. There are a heck of a lot fewer Knight than Warriors. In most zones except for PoEarth and PoFire Knight tanks perfectly fine and since they bring more abilities to the group they are the prefered MT. Even when a Warrior is MTing Knights are often included as a melee. To get a group a Warrior generally MT's or sits /lfg. Don't believe me? Do a /who all lfg 65 (class) for a week and check it for yourself.

2. Warrior high end damage is good. *Cough* maybe with 3 different weapons, but if you aren't wielding one of those then your (or a least my) damage is around 120.

3. The Warrior ability to get and hold aggro is fine. Eeek! The vast majority of Warriors use a BoC. Anyone ever check the proc rate on that thing? It is not good. It's low enough that I've seen a number of Warriors wielding it in the offhand with a Bloodfrenzy or even a Copper Hammer of striking used in the Primary. Compare it to the rate of aggro events a Pally can produce by chain stunning. Impressed by BoC still? (BTW I'm VERY grateful for my guild getting me a BoC). High level Warrior aggro weapons are not easy to obtain and every 60+ Pally has the spells needed to out aggro any Warrior.

4. OK, maybe there are some problems, but everything balances out. Not really. When Warriors can get AA as fast as Bards, Enchanters, Necros, Druids, and Wizards I'll agree. When Warriors are included in quick kill groups that regularly assemble and off a mob for ph4t l3wts so that most Warriors have 100k+ in the bank too, I'll agree. When Warriors generally have 200+ in evey tradeskill like many other classes I'll think things are balanced. Until then I'll watch my guild's raid calendar and play an alt. Class jelousy? Naw, just saddened that if there is any character treated poorly by SoE it's Dwarf Agnostic Warriors (<- me).

BB

Phantron

08-20-2003, 01:27 AM

SoE isn't responsible for your group's misconceptions. It's no different from how a cleric is completely unneeded if you have a slower and yet people still refuse to go anywhere without one.

People believe a Paladin is better than you. That's their problem, not SoE's. People also believe Necros and Mages aren't good grouping classes. Doesn't mean the two most damaging XP group classes need to do even more damage just because people are stupid. The reasons you cited are the reasons your group imagined why you suck. If you were tanking instead it is unlikely the group would've ended up in a messy death but if that's what the group wants to believe that's what they do.