Poll results and new brainstorm thread.

[Raaj]

I've been busy and didn't get this up at soon as I'd hoped but heres the basic results from the poll:

Top 5
Improve Taunt - 14.23%
Increased innate Hp/AC/Mitigation/Avoidance - 13.48%
Taunt/Damage DoT's - 7.86%
Discipline Changes - 7.11%
+Hate on Hits / Crits / Procs - 6.79%

Runners up
New Class only Skills - 6.37%
Itemization - 6.37%
Armor / Weapon specialization - 5.84%


From these, we can look at the issues as falling under 3 main categories:

Changing of Warrior Skills and Skill caps - does not include aa.
-Adding of new skills (offensive or defensive in nature)
-Changing of current skills


Changing of Disciplines
-Adding new disciplines
-Changing current disciplines
-Changing the mechanics of "disciplines" in general

Game-wide Changes
-Itemization changes
-Hp/AC/Mitigation changes
-Changing melee mechanics

Utility - roles outside of MT/RT
-

Please list any ideas you have which fall under these 3 subjects. I do not want specific ideas. I want any broad subjects we may have overlooked. Before you post please think "Does my idea fit under one of the categories already listed? If you have an idea for a totally new category - that's fine too, simply specify that in your post.

The plan for after this is done is sketchy at best. Hopefully we take another poll or two to focus in on issues expressed here.

[Hulanta]

Category 1
Give us block, let parry and dodge cap higher.

Category 3
Warrior only stuff that make us unique and stronger in our core areas.

[Bunnie Burner]

Game Wide changes
Addition to current items of new mods/focuses/effects that affect only melee.


--New Subject--
DPS
-Upgrade of attack tables
-Addition of new abilites for greater dps in general.
-Addition or tweaking of defensive abilities that would heighten the tanking warrior's dps drastically. (Ripostes etc.. )

((DPS changes weren't mentioned in the poll,
but with the popularity of Taunt changes, Hate to crits and hits etc.. DPS would make a nice addition, as it's a huge aggro bonus.))

[Valeris]

Personally i'd prefer a New subject but this could perhaps go under new skills.

UTILITY - roles outside the main tank spot.

[Aveen]

Here are a few specific ideas to kick around:

Skills:
at level 40:
head butt -- Melee Damage to the target.
damage: 10+level/2
delay: 6seconds at level 40 scaled to 4 seconds at level 65 not tied to kick/bash/slam timer
range: same as kick
skill cap: same as kick
description: You head butt your target.

At level 45:
rib jab -- Increase Hate
effect: increase hate 100 + 2xlevel
delay: 15 seconds at level 45 scaled to 8 seconds at level 65. Independant of other timers.
range: same as taunt
Skill cap: Same as taunt
Description: You jab your target in the ribs to gain his attention.

level 50
Spit: -- Modify hate list position
effect: move to the top of the hate list + level/2 aggro modifier.
delay: 12 seconds at level 50 scaled to 8 seconds at level 65.
range: twice that of taunt
Description: You spit in your opponent's face to get their attention.

Kick -- increase the damage this does

slam -- make this a warrior skill not a racial skill



Disciplins:
Put the offensive and defensive disc's on separate timers.

Thats pretty much it for now, I kinda used up my brain power comming up with those.

[Raaj]

Hulanta and Aveen - those would be specifics. Save those ideas for the thread when we start narrowing things down more. This is just for an outline.

Valeris - good idea. Adding that one now.

Bunnie yours could probably go under skills, since skills can be both offensive and defensive.

[Aveen]

Oh sorry, I thought we were doing specifics now. Bah. And I worked so hard on those ideas. :(

[Cuthbadth]

Hmmmm...how about an innate haste for warriors only? :)

Alrighty, you wanted big picture, how about fixing warrior agro...failing that, give warriors something fun to do...like an insanely heavy range weapon that only a warrior would think about using like a harpoon gun. ;)

[Oulurok]

Catapult!?!?!? lol j/k

[Bunnie Burner]

Bunnie yours could probably go under skills, since skills can be both offensive and defensive

Aye :), was hesitating about putting them under skills.

Problem is the changing of Damage Tables in general wouldn't fit under that.
Maybe this then:

New Skills
-add/tweak Offensive skills that affect pure damage.
-add/tweak Defensive skills that allow the tanking warrior to deal more damage.

Game Wide Changes
-Upgrade of Warrior damage tables (as well as other melees)

[Beornegar]

I still like the idea of getting rid of /disc defensive, and placing warriors on a separate, defensive-like mitigation table. A less desirable alternative would be to remove the DPS penalty from the existing evasive/defensive disciplines.
Unhooking discipline timers would be a huge one too. Does anyone here actually use anything other than evasive and defensive?

[Hyardgune]

I guess this would fall under itemization. Do something with warrior (and rogue. monk) mana. We end up having hundreds, sometimes thousands of points of mana going to waste on our gear. Having some kind of use made out of it would help in a lot of ways.

If pure melees could convert it to something useful like hp or attack, or be used as mana batteries (to be sucked dry by a necro or something maybe) that would be nice.

[Bunnie Burner]

Changing Disciplines

Auras - group beneficial type disciplines, that are permanent. Only one can be used at a time.
---


The idea was brought up with the poll and went along with Discipline changes.
Discpline changes being in the top 5, I'd say this deserves some looking into.

Not only would it be very group favorable,
but it won't affect raids that much, avoiding big imbalances.

The concept is also pretty tasty. It's not only Original and New, but the possiblities are endless...
and adding/tweaking Auras would make futur melee changes much easier.

[Thaak]

Keep defensive, but like... give warriors an innate 15% reduction in hits starting at maybe lvl 55 or so

And defensive will add another 15% damage reduction, but will increase the % for procs to go off or something.

(Yeah, yeah, no specifics. but just wanted to elaborate)

[Anker steadfast]

I think the changes needed for warrior should be rather fundamental and something they start out with.
I have 3 moderate suggestions on improvements to warriors.



First - Improved Taunt :

Add amount of aggro on Taunt according to Taunt skill, wether it fail or not.
Warrior only skill. (knights get spells to make up for it)

Thus a warrior with 200 skill who makes a succesful Taunt gets moved to top of aggro list, +200 aggro.
And if he fails, he still get moved 200 aggro up.

The refresh time on Taunt will help keeping this from being overpowered, but will help with initial aggro.
Also, since it's locked to the Taunt skill, which is level dependant, it will scale nicely as you level up.
Available at Character creation.



Second - Taunt Refresh :

For every 50 skillpoints in Taunt skill, 5% of Taunt refresh time gets shaved off.
So you get :

Skill 0 ----- 100% refresh time
Skill 50 ---- 95% refresh time
Skill 100 --- 90% refresh time
Skill 150 --- 85% refresh time
Skill 200 --- 80% refresh time
Skill 230 --- 75% refresh time

While skill 230 isn't strictly 50 opints more than skill 200, it's our max cap, and it seems prober.
Also, since it's locked to the Taunt skill, which is level dependant, it will scale nicely as you level up.
Available at character creation.


Third - Basic Combat Stances :

I would like to see 3 basic combat stances added, Aggresive, Neutral and Defensive.
This would be 3 buttons, where only one could be "active" at any given time, if another is choosen, the previous will not be used. Like a radio decks toggle buttons.

Aggresive Stance
-This would increase all damage given by 10%, but also increase all damage taken by 10%
-You deal more out, but also take more.

Neutral Stance
-This Stance wuold give no positive or adverse effects and you would be just like we are now.

Defensive Stance
-This stance would decrease all damage given by 10%, but also decrease all damage taken by 10%
-You deal less, but also take less.

The Stances should be toggable while moving and in combat, though I think there should be a 5 second delay after you switched from one stance until you could switch to another stance, just like there's a 2.4 second delay after a spell caster finishes a spell and until he can cast another.

If you are ready for a stance Change, the change itself should however be instant though.
Available at character creation.




Thoghts and comments on my suggestions are highly encouraged.

EDIT :
**spanks his keyboard for making a lot of typo's**

[uhrlik]

The stance thing worked pretty well in the paper-and-pencil RPG Shadowrun, but it also affected your "faction" with people. The more aggressive you were (5 stances instead of 3 in the Shadowrun) the less people liked you. Kind of like lowering your charisma, making merchants more likely to gouge you on prices and guards a lot less friendly.

[Anker steadfast]

Heh ... don't think we should mess with faction stances in EQ though ... sure would look funny though :

Warrior approaches the local baker.
Warrior takes a defensive stance.
Warrior says, 'Do you have any baked goodies for me, kind Baker ?'
Baker says, 'Arrgh, warriors like you have spoiled your own lands, you will not spoil mine!'
LOADING, PLEASE WAIT...

[uhrlik]

Other way around, Anker. The more Defensive you were, the less people thought of you as a threat. They lowered prices and you were generally more liked, but you did less/took less damage in combat.

All in all, if you take away the merchant part, it sounds an awful lot like /dis defensive. You don't take much damage and unless you can prove otherwise, the mob doesn't think of you as much of a threat. /wave bye bye casters. :p

[Daemonwynd]

Add some form of innate aggro generation on demand. (and no, I don't mean taunt, taunt does something else)

[Anker steadfast]

But Uhrlik, both you and I know, that if they can break bards by messing up a door in High Keep, then warriors would also get more aggro in defensive stance. :p

A bit like a discipline, yes, except it's a constant modifier.
I think stances would make it a bit more tactical for many warriors, which is sorely needed since we have no spells or other form of utility.

One trick ponies, that's us right now.


And I agree with the innate form of aggro, since taunt ni it's current form does not really add aggro if you are on top of the list already - Which was why I made the suggestion of adding aggro according to skill, wether taunt fails or not.

[GorfinML]

dunnu under what catorgy this would go, but its +hate per hit

starting at some lvl, war's get a value(% or raw # based on lvl) of hate added to every successful hit/kick/slam/bash/proc

the value in creases every level, altho minutley. at 61+ bigger jumps occur

maybe an an AA skill that would increase the amount of hate also...2, 5 and 9% for 3/6/9 aa's or soemthing

[uhrlik]

Maybe they should just take a cue from the community. Add a huge aggro modifier to Beg. We all know how much we hate beggars asking for free money and equipment.

[Eoden]

+hate per hit would need to be switchable otherwise non tanking warriors on raids are going to have to lower their DPS / toggle attack off occasionally so as to not pull agro from the MT.

Also would the amount of hate added be a set amount per hit or a percentage of the damage delt as a set amount per hit would favor DW vs 2hnders - undecided as to whether this would be a good thing or a bad thing.

[uhrlik]

I'm still pretty firmly in the camp of "bad idea" with +hate per hit. It's strange, but my DPS is actually higher while DW than when I use 2hs (don't ask, it's a whole skill issue...). To add +hate to my damage would almost certainly guarantee me unwanted attention if I'm not the tank of my group.

[GorfinML]

but if the tank in your group is a warrior too, then he'll have the same aggro benifit as you do

if your having probs with extra aggro, then adjust..change weapons, attack later, dont use kick...you'll have to adjust just like other DPS classes do

[uhrlik]

Except that as a warrior, I have no easy way of shrugging off a mob's tender lovin' care.

Imagine what that would do on a raid. I'll use Vindi as an example. He's a mob that your MT hides in a corner while all melee pound on him from the rear.

MT is defensive, so he's hitting about 40% less. Another group of warriors is standing behind Vindi (where you hit more often and for more damage) just happily whacking away. ALL of the warriors are generating large amounts of hate, while the MT is generating next to none because of the defensive.

Eventually, one of those warriors is going to out +hate the MT. Next thing you know, Vindi turns around, pimp smacks one of the other warriors and then proceeds to slaughter the casters.

+Hate per hit is a bad idea.

[GorfinML]

what do those warriors(present day war's) do now when the MT is def against vindi and the other wars are doing more DPS(and thus more hate) than the MT is?

as of now: you let the MT build aggro...if a DPS war gets aggro, he back off attack, or some other form of reducing his dps to make sure the main war has aggro

if you add +hate to war's hits, it goes to all war's....your best geared/lvl/aa'd war is still gonan tank...he'll be producing the same amount of hate vs the other wars as he is now...but he'll be producing more hate than non-wars(i dont see present day warriors complaining about hold aggro from other warriors...its about holding aggro from wizzy/rogue/monk/dps class)


sure if a non-tank gets a lucky string of procs, or the MT gets stuned 2x in a row, then someone's gonan pull aggro, but that happens now, even with out the +hate added to swings...

*edit for a few word changes to help make a bit of sense...i tend to ramble alot*

[Bunnie Burner]

But why just put +hate? i dont get it....

SOE said they were meaning to change melee DPS...
but you guys want just the +hate?... without the DPS behind it?

/shrug

I'd rather be landing 200hits with my 1handers constantly... and thus generating good aggro...
rather then hit for 50s, but still do good aggro...

[uhrlik]

Oh, beleive me, I'm all in favor of increasing my 'hurt factor,' I'm just not in favor of +hate or a huge (thus unbalancing) increase in DPS.

[Beornegar]

I don't see an increase in DPS as unbalancing. They're "allegedly" trying to balance our DPS agains caster DPS. And lets be honest, compared to casters, our DPS sucks. And I dont just mean warrior DPS, I mean melee in general. I'm all for giving us a boost.

[Isk]

For the moment most of y'all's ideas are a little too specific.

For now, changing the hate value assigned to warrior melee is under "Changing melee mechanics" in gamewide changes.

Changing defensive to permanent but reduced mitigation falls into a number of other categories.

If you feel any ideas aren't covered by the broad topics in the initial post, speak up and we'll see about where those ideas fit.

Also if you guys have any broad ideas for utility, let's hear those!

[Hulanta]

When a mob targets a warrior, they are slowed 10% automatically! Stacks with all other slows. Adds the same amount of hate to the warrior that slowing a mob adds.

[Stryph]

I thought this was a good idea. Concerning the disciplines for pure melees mostly instead of just warriors.

Unhooking the disciplines
Add in 5 new discs for 61-65
Lower all discs to 12 min timers
Allow for one defensive and one offensive disc to be used at one time

Just some ideas for the discs to kick around.

[Bunnie Burner]

Yes, some ideas are a bit specific. But i'll be posting a new thread that will be stickied to replace this one.

Actually, I think all general ideas have more or less been mentioned and i've already updated the 3 categories with them.
I also changed the 3rd categoriee's name from "Game Wide Changes" to "Warrior's Advancement". Since all ideas under it are actually part of how a Warrior advances within the game (items, level influence to ac/hp etc..)

I'll be posting the new post tomorow.
So please keep your ideas for that one ;).

Don't really think anymore general ideas can be added for the categories, since there aren't a lot :p... change stuff, add stuff... that's basicaly it.. unless you want to remove stuff too ;)..

And giving new ideas for Categories other then the 3 we currently have, defeats the purpose of the poll that was made.


In brief:
This Topic will be updated with a new one tomorow.
You'll be able to post specific ideas (or links to ideas) there.
yay yay!

[Beornegar]

Zandorf posted this idea in another thread in the war room, I thought it was worthy of putting here.
Leg Shot - 30% chance to snare target

Arm Shot - 30% chance to slow target 50%

Body Shot - 30% chance to decrease targets AC

Head Shot - 30% chance to lower targets MR

Maybe not those specifically but something close

I suppose it could fall under special attacks, added utility, or expanded roles outside of tanking. And it might be nice to have the percentages listed here increased a bit, but it looks like a good starting point to me.

[Naralli_VoLS]

Myself I am tired of hearing when I am LFG "sorry we are looking for DPS..we already have a tank" and I see a SK/Pally in group.
Seems to me a class skilled in the art of "war" ( warriors ) should be the BEST at dealing and taking damage. Make our melee class dish out the most damage and we would not need to hold our own in the agro war against those pansies that HAVE to cast some spell to make the mobs head turn.
Increase warrior damage tables dramatically. You would find groups WANTING warriors in groups since things drop faster. We cant hold agro as well as a Knight? Who cares I put the mob down faster. This way if a caster has to hold off a bit longer before casting to ensure that he doesnt get agro doesnt affect how fast a mob drops as warriors outdamage all other melee classes. Warriors become desireable in exp groups again with this simple change. This is more realistic to the classes and gives groups choices again. Want to ensure you dont get agro if you chain cast your nukes?.. you grab a Pally/SK. Want to risk agro but put the mobs down faster get that warrior: skilled in all forms of combat and master at inflicting damage upon the enemy.
Brings in the possibilities of having weapons keyed to stats: Must have 300 Strength to lift. Etc. Weapons could do massive amounts of damage. Damage inflicted would be our taunt..and then all warriors would have choices in weapons, you could go for the faster proccing weapon or that Huge ass Axe that does 500 damage on average in a single hit.
I am tired of being known as a defensive class. Seems more like a Knight's thing IMHO. And I am very tired of the "cookie cutter" image of a warrior.

Naralli Ironsmith
Overlord of VoLS
the Rathe

http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=643515

[Battleblade]

Sorry, no specific suggestions. But since this is brainstorming I wanted to share what I thought were the best broad areas of discussion I saw here.

Adjustments are needed for for all Warriors (most badly by those level 50 to level 65)
[It would be good if a significant ability was gained when a Warrior becomes a Mrrmaydidimon and another when he becomes an Overlord. Title changes ought to mean as much as possible.]

The Aggro situation does need to be looked at.

Offensive changes
[Not just DPS. We do also need an offensive ability as impressive and class defining as Mana Burn, Cleansing, or the True Shot discipline]

I believe SoE is capable of fixing things if it choses.

BB

[Raaj]

Post on Bunnies thread.