SOE to unlock old zones [Archive]

Battleblade

04-03-2008, 09:16 PM

It doesn't do anything positive except to devalue the effort of people who got flagged and then got items - be that 7 years ago or last week.

Seriously, look at the zones being unlocked - they are either ridiculous to think there's a need (Sebilis) or so much need and justification (PoTime) it's beyond belief they'd be unlocked.

It's flat out appealing to non-achievers is what it is and apparently devs think THAT'S going to bring them into EasyQuest in droves.

Ya know IF devs had been sensible:
fix any flagging that was difficult to sustain at 85/15 with a full raid force (ala Demi)

up the drop rate for a couple of GROUP (for heaven's sake, EASY group) drops - shards

no one would have complained or commented.

BUT they had to warm up the Welfare EQ Busline and GIVE away months and months and months of people's hard effort like free candy to starving non-achievers......

well that frankly reeks. It reeks as bad as Dain MM's. Heck it reeks WORSE than Dain MM's. Nobody that actually played EQ and respected it would do it.

Benlin

04-03-2008, 09:38 PM

No need for me to repeat here everything that I'm posting there.

I truly hope it's as beneficial as they wish it to be. But for me it will remove a chunk of EQ from EQ. And when I ask myself 'do I still want to play', there'll be less mass in the Yes response.

NB: I'm prepared to be wrong and wake up in 5 weeks and find it made no difference, btw.

I also hope it is as beneficial as I have been arguing (and others) that it will be.

Of course there really is no going back once the changes are made.

Like you I am also prepared to see what the real impacts of this change will be.

Jyllian

04-03-2008, 09:47 PM

I posted in the other thread at SoE, figure can as well post here.

I see a lil bit of both sides, am a lil bit on both sides. Add to it i'm often a raid leader in that content so i live through it a bit.

It may not be 100% positive but i think it will do more good then bad to a level.

I also believe that it will not affect fabled very much, in that it was already stated fabled would stop at pop, and start over from classic next year. Altho they can always change their minds.

It all depends if it's gonna be repetitive or not. What i'm hoping is that at least for a few years this is the new line drawn in the sand. Giving those who want to enjoy content behind the wave time to explore oow, dodh and more. But it's not something i'm overly worried about. As i feel that's exactly what the developer team has in mind. Else they wouldn't have stopped at god in my mind at this point.

As to pop, we almost done with it, wont really benefit from it, and god, well what i read raidleaders would still need the progression coz else they cant get raid instances. So no benefit there for me either.

VT, ST, VP, well maybe VT is a bit to far but it won't really change much for me either.

VP. Here i'm sorry, but the way VP was revamped to begin with obseleting those who were keyed and were raiding there was screwed to start with. And yeah at the time my guild was there and we were mad. Even if it was old to many it was where we really started kicking the curve. And to get that cut short and to be cut out of a zone ye farming.

ST. No one will go there, after checking out the loot for 5 seconds, not even for fabled. People will miss the one or 2 good drops in zone and just be blinded by the drops that are so far below par.

VT. Already a dead zone even during fabled, i dont expect this to change one bit. Even though some kind of quest would've still been nice. Maybe equate emp kill to vt key.

Time, well i wouldve prolly disabled pre elem flagging and kept time requirements god kills. If it had been my call.

GoD really know nothing bout that expansion as it hasn't been in my focus yet.

Mophios

04-03-2008, 09:55 PM

how are they going to redo classic fabled in original EQ again? I didn't know they were planning on stopping fabled in PoP :( like Bedavir says i am a Sad Panda

Grayhelm

04-03-2008, 09:56 PM

Flagging in GoD is a pain in the arse, and I doubt anyone would argue it couldn't be improved, but removing it entirely just destroys the structure to the expansion.

The only reason GoD holds any 'shape' is because of the flagging.

Jyllian

04-03-2008, 10:00 PM

how are they going to redo classic fabled in original EQ again? I didn't know they were planning on stopping fabled in PoP :( like Bedavir says i am a Sad Panda

Well the official line at this moment is,

Ykesha nothing to build fabled on.
LDoN nothing to build fabled on.

And from there on scripts are to hard to make fabled. Also that the current dev team went active after pop, so they feel it isnt right to do fabled for em. Doesnt feel the same.

Off course things are never set in stone, i understand they didnt plan on doing pop fabled this year at first. But then the drive to get pop fabled prolly was much bigger then ldon or ykesha or even god.

Varalla

04-03-2008, 10:09 PM

Was GoD worse than PoP flagging wise?
I was under the impression that after PoP flagging got a lot less retarded.
For clousure I dont like leaving expansions behind even though I know some of the newer expansions are somewhat easier flagging wise.

Was hoping after PoP we could quickly catch up.
Always figured Time flagging was the ultimate obstacle for expansion progression.

Grayhelm

04-03-2008, 10:32 PM

The theory with GoD is that the flagging is easier, the reality is that keeping a raid force flagged for GoD is hard. Here goes.

1. You need Kod`taz (static), currently you get that by single group beating the Tipt trial (instance).
2. You need to launch the four Ikkinz raids, you get those by 1 person doing 3 single group trials (instances) and some quests.
3. You beat Ikkinz1-3 (instances) raids to allow 1 person to trigger Ikkinz4 (instance) raids.
4. Ikkinz4 (instance) is the first 'raid flag', everyone needs it.
5. While you're doing Ikkinz (instance) you also bash away at Uqua (instance). You beat Uqua, that's your second 'raid flag', everyone needs it.
6. In combination, those two flags get you into Qvic (static).
7. In Qvic you can zone into Inktu`ta (instance) which you beat to flag your raid.
8. Uqua + Ikkinz4 + Inktut`ta = Txevu (static) flagged.
9. You beat a bunch of stuff in Txevu (two keys required to unlock doors) to get to the final guy. The final guy drops stuff which lets 2 or 3 people request the Tacvi (instance) zone.
10. Tacvi is the final zone.

There is no 'Tacvi' flag. The flag is Txevu, the Tacvi zoneline is inside Txevu, so that's how they restrict it.

Here's the kicker.

Initially, incorrectly (and everyone knew this), you didn't need *previous* flags to get to *subsequent* zones in GoD, and so you could 85 people through zones they weren't flagged for.

Imagine, you have 24 people Qvic flagged, but you want to bring 40 people on the Inktu`ta raid. No problem, as long as you run them through Qvic 2 or 3 at a time, it works fine.

But then they fixed it (1 year ago, laughably now), and it nailed a lot of guilds who did the minimum flagging possible to 85 people in Tacvi.

And the *real* problem is the backflag quests are crap. You need a drop from Tacvi and then some kind of quest to get the Txevu backflag, but you also need the Qvic backflag now (because it's a pre-req to get into Txevu as well), which is even longer. I have no idea how the quests work, we avoided the whole problem by flagging everyone.

Grayhelm

04-03-2008, 10:33 PM

I'm not sure if that counts as 'more simple', it's more 'linear'.

http://samanna.net/eq.progression/prog.god.shtml

Grayhelm

04-03-2008, 10:34 PM

And why do I know this? Because we beat Tacvi in January of this year, the 'hard' way, flagging 50 casual raiders raiding once a week.

Adropt

04-03-2008, 10:45 PM

Honestly, if I want to start and play an alt now, or level up a bot, I do not want to go through 8-9 years worth of flagging on that character. The older stuff isn't hard, I have done it before, and it is dull as £"%" for the most part.

I don't understand the whinging that this makes Everquest in any way easy. What, it is going to trivialise EQ by taking alts into VT to get gear that has 1/3 of the hp of current non-flagged zones? Do I seriously want to do that key for the 5th $%£$% time !?

You are unlocking, for the most part, unused zones. For old players it helps with alts, for new players it helps on some of the harder flagging, where there are no longer raids catering for that content, allowing the needed drops for progression.

Whilst I think the idea of unkeying seb is a tad silly (considering it is a 5 min quest), I see no reason to keep the likes of VT, VP, and QViC locked anymore.

I can't really say I will miss the progression aspect of GoD when it is unflagged, nor PoP. If you have done it once, doing it again means precisely squat. I am also not that much of a git that I would make others jump through hoops for old content just because I had too. That is known as being a wanker.

Oh, and something I wanted to say for a while. Climbing a mountain is hard, running a marathon is hard, playing a computer game is NOT HARD! If you consider play a computer game is in anyway difficult, then you need to take a good long look at your life and put things into perspective.

Grayhelm

04-03-2008, 10:51 PM

Please don't lump me into the same group as others who are upset it makes it 'easy'. I couldn't give a hoot how easy it makes it.

It detracts from my potential goals. It removes things I have yet to do.

It's not about what has been done, but about what has not yet been done.

I want the challenge, but it's being removed.

And I said I wouldn't repeat what I'd said on the Sony boards, so there you go, now you made me a liar too.

If you can't understand my point, it's because we look at the game in a fundamentally different way, it doesn't make me wrong, nor you wrong, it just means we look at it differently.

It is so hard to accept that I may feel this detracts from my future enjoyment of EQ, without it being about easy or hard or lazy.

Grayhelm

04-03-2008, 10:55 PM

When we beat Tacvi in January *of this year*, after flagging for about 12 months on and off, it was the *journey* that we remembered most.

The shared experience.

The time we, as friends, spent together, beating stuff, getting past it, getting everyone up to speed. The late nights helping friends through Tipt just in time to get them into Kod`taz the next day. The late nights throwing ourselves against Ikkinz 3, knowing we'd never have to go back once we beat it so we could trigger Ikkinz 4. Asking everyone, to give just 10 more minutes for one final go at Ikkinz 3, that this time we'd do it, we'd beat those damn golems.

The memory of that, of friendships forged in that moment, of conversations with people (*people*, not computer graphics), that they were staying until it was beaten, will last me a long time.

We did that because the flagging requirements required us to, and without them, we would have not had that chance, because by nature, people choose the path of least resistance, and hence, they will choose to click into Tacvi and kill the loot droppers they care about.

Brabble

04-03-2008, 11:16 PM

I actually checked to see if the first dev post in that thread were dated April Fools. It is not.

Dshiz

04-04-2008, 12:07 AM

Ive been thinking over this the past few hours, and I still feel very torn. I feel the craptastic flagging that is required, and the incredably poor drop rates, and the retardedly long runs to get to zones you actually want to do something in are what unfortunatly make the game..... I see this as another way too what grayhelm put.

I too remember my "journey" through pop, my idol is maxed and it took the guild I was in then near a year and a temporary alliance with a similar guild to make it, I got GoD with a entirely differant guild, but that since of acomplishment I felt after finishing all that flagging could never be replaced by a freebee.....

For the few like Grey that are still working through this content that they plan to unlock well... its going to rob them of a experiance.

As others have said most of these zones are unused by the larger part of the population, most "raid" guilds are way past these and dont visit these relics.

For the most part this will keep these "memory" zones from fadeing away completly maybe they will become farming playlands for alts and such, but if not.....well they might as well not exist for the most part....EQ is not going to suddenly get a flux of new players that dream died already.

kdpfo

04-04-2008, 02:39 AM

This is really like getting upset because 7th grade is easier now than when u came thru. I am proud of doing my flag and will not be any less so after this.

romin

04-04-2008, 03:28 AM

When i first saw this i was thinkin F**k ya!

After goin to the link and seeing the zones that will be opened my jaw dropped. I totally dunno about this ya there are negs and cons but i'm a firm believer in getting what you worked for and this kinda throws that to the wind.

This year on fableds we werent able to raid the elemental bosses kinda pissed me the off that so many weren't flaged or just didn't give a rats ass. Once the links of fabled bosses started floating around and guilds waaay further behind us in progression get gear equal or better ppl start to think twice.

K went on sort of a rant there and i was getting at saying maybe opening the ep's and other zones is a really good idea. Now that i look at it i think the guilds that did there flagging and stuff are way more deserving.... i dunno maybe its a good idea or bad one but w/e idk really. Personally will be great to not think about flagging friend bot or noobie i just meet for those and concentrate on demi/anguish/soltiers flagging etc.. That would be kinda nice actually.

Oh one more point besides i think emp in ssra vt and lower can be solo'ed right? by competent ppl anyways. Also the pops and elementals all gods can be one grped. So in the end its doable without a crazy force behind you so i think it'll be cool to open these zones.

PS: with decent grps and pick up raids i have seen regular grpers get mmm+crystallos key in under 2 or 3 days with like 6hrs of real effort put in for 500hp gear zones. So by all means i think open em /shrug.

Adropt

04-04-2008, 05:33 AM

Sorry, my rant wasn't aimed at Grayhelm, and I do understand the fact that some people feel their keying has been devalued by this. I just don't overly. I have done my keying, I know it did it and I honestly do not want to do it again for future characters. Even thinking about doing the VT key again makes me feel ever-so-slightly ill.

If removing keys from old zones gives people more places to go, adds more fun to the game and makes it easier to access places they would not otherwise be able to do I see no issue.

I am not sure I would really have opened zones as high as was done, but, tbh, I don't play there now, and I don't really want to stop others from experiencing zones that they may not be able to get too now due to lack of raids in that content.

I am fairly sure I would not like to solo Emp. Bane weapon limitation would make it a nightmare fight, it would take a freakin age to kill him.

Grayhelm

04-04-2008, 06:13 AM

"and I do understand the fact that some people feel their keying has been devalued by this."

I'm obliged to repeat this is not how I feel.

I feel Sony has taken away the option for other people to feel the same achievement I did, not that they have cheapened my achievements.

If there was an amazing tough challenging ski-run in the alps that you had to work hard to get to, through lesser ski-runs, that I had done. And those lesser ski-runs were in themselves challenging and fun, I would be sad to find out that people no longer had to do them, because they would be missing out on the full experience.

Humans naturally choose the path of least resistance, virtually no one will flag when they don't need to, resulting in content going to waste.

And now I really *am* going to shut up on this topic.

Adrian

04-04-2008, 07:18 AM

My opinion is split, like many.

The positive aspects of this change could/will allow me to visit almost all of these zones while never obtaining the keys/flags. I could sight-see, explore or camp some gear. This change will hasten my ability to do these things.

The negative feelings I get from this outweigh the positives. I have been working on progression from several different years-old expansions for quite some time. This change will completely wipe out all the work I have done up to this point in an anticlimatic open zone change.

I should be happy, right?

I am the type of player that enjoys the "struggle vs time and lack of power." My magelo will give you an idea. I feel disheartened about this.

The result of this change could result in my "struggle vs time and lack of power" against people with greater power but lack the things I posess. Contested camps could result and due to my playstyle, I would likely have to wait. If you don't think this will occur, reassure me.

I don't understand the point of unlocking all this content. I have heard all arguements but I still don't see it.

Without the progression what is the point?

Silthrix

04-04-2008, 07:34 AM

Well here goes--I know some of my views are not wildly popular here but they make sense to me.
IMO This will do NOTHING to increase the playerbase-duh. While I wish I could see some of this content that I never really had the opportunity to see, I understand why those that went thru the long haul of doing the flagging would be pissed-I would be also...

That said, IMO IF SOE wants to increase population, they could do the following:

Lower subscription rate to under $10 a month. I think Guild Wars is $6 although I would never play it. I have
always believed in selling more cheaply than a few at high cost. Volume wins IMO.
Start toons decently equipped at a higher level.

However those disclaimers aside, and perhaps cause I am a dumbass, I never liked some of the flagging that needed to be done. It made no freaking sense I guess because it had no paralell to any game I played before or any book I read, etc. So maybe, just maybe, instead of eliminating flagging, which I am not really a fan of (eliminating it that is), they could streamline it. It never made sense to me that I had to download a 3rd party program and run it based on text I got from the seer in POK just to figure out where the hell I was on POP flagging which was entirely cryptic and intentionally so I suppose.
So I think they need to compromise-make flagging easier and more linear but don't remove it. Hell, maybe they could put flags for the older zones as an AA you can purchase for say 30 or so AA pts. I dunno, but I do see both sides of the issue and felt like chiming in.

Ouruk

04-04-2008, 09:03 AM

If this change is implemented it will likely do only 2 things:

1 - Make competition for fabled PoP mobs insane next year (if it happens - no idea on that front)
2 - Open up Tacvi to people who haven't managed to grind through GoD flagging

I do feel this is a LoCoDe change... I mean Sleeper's Tomb? Old Sebilis? How hard was it to flag for those zones? It's just allowing for the path-of-least-resistance to take a real stranglehold on the game if it hasn't already.

I for one would take advantage of this change - I would love to revisit Tacvi, pick up those few extra clickies I wanted and introduce my friends to a great raid zone. This change will allow the less experienced have fun in a place that was "restricted access" since guild turnover prevented us from ever fielding enough flagged people to do Inktu'ta (had some great tries, kudos to those who did it at 65).

Sorta makes me sad though, as Grayhelm said, some of my best times in EQ were those hard as hell flagging events - Emperor Ssra at 55-60, Rallos Zek at 60-65 and then the EP gods at 65... Corinav's adds will be remembered forever, god the number of times we tried that raid... The list goes on, but you get the idea.

*sad face / happy face*

Arylle Pixiecrippler

04-04-2008, 09:52 AM

I don't see anything wrong with it. For the most part you can buy better gear the bazaar. It will make finishing BIC easier, getting overhaste for newer players easier, getting the BST epic that needs the phoenix drop easier, and stuff like that.

Someone is always going to have it easier than you did as time goes on. It's like grandpa's "back in my days we walked 8 miles in the snow . . ." type deals :p

Aramelus

04-04-2008, 10:16 AM

I'm in a MMM guild, and I don't see anything but positive about this change. If new or more casual players want to experience that content, a lot of the hoop jumping is nigh-impossible for people like that.

That content is 4+ years old now. I don't really see the point of unkeying stuff like Sebilis, but I do certainly see it as a positive that they're opening some of the former high end raid zones (yes I am aware that Sebilis was a high end raid zone in Kunark) up for people. They're not high end anymore, and perfectly doable for more casual guilds -- just the logistics of getting into them was the problem.

This will allow more people to be introduced to the raid game, and will benefit high end guilds in the long run, as well as more casual guilds in the short term.

Cowboyatheart

04-04-2008, 10:36 AM

Phax

04-04-2008, 10:57 AM

I'm going to have to disagree with you Grayhelm, yes people are lazy but why did you go through the content you did? Probably for the same reason I did, to do the content even though it is no longer relevant. It was for that sense of accomplishment and this change will do nothing to lessen it. If a guild wants to work through GoD the old fashion way nothing is stopping them from doing it.

What really makes me like this change is for some of these zones I've flagged a couple different toons and don't ever want to do it again for other alts. This will allow me to go hang out with friends or join an open raid with an alt and not have to worry about if they are flagged or not.

Bruenorg

04-04-2008, 12:37 PM

I totally understand where Greyhelm is coming from but I think his raiding alliance is an oddity in EQ. The reality is that GoD and below zones on the vast majority of servers are ghost towns. The effort it takes to get a guild flagged for Tacvi doesn't make sense for guilds looking at progression paths. So, opening them up does no harm since, in general, people aren't going there anyway.

It is sad that people won't experience the progression in those expansions anymore but it is not realistic to think we can control this evolution. Older content will over time get used less and less. This change will hopefully rejuvenate these older zones for a little while longer.

With that said, Sebilis? WTF? I don't agree that flagging/keying changes should be made for zones that require trivial effort to get access to.

Dont think I would ever use a DBotW, FB, or BBoB nowadays due to craptastic ratios

BBoB still owns Swiftcleave for aggro. :p

Vanidor

04-04-2008, 12:45 PM

I'm in a guild that will be raiding in Deathknell after fabled are done(we got flagged the week before fabled). I'm kind of happy this change didn't go in earlier since it left a lot of elemental mini's up for us, but I do like the idea.

I don't see this diminishing my guild flagging for VT/PoP/Tacvi. We did what we did and nothing that happens after that will make me feel bad about that. The same is true in RL, if they started handing out Bachelors in Physics to every 8 year old that came by for a visit it won't make me feel worse about mine. For the guilds that did this stuff on the bleeding edge a year or two earlier then me, I still think they should be proud for what they did. My doing Tacvi with 5 levels extra shouldn't make them feel cheapened, so I don't see how this does.

I understand your point Grayhelm, but I think if you guys bond so well that they will continue to do things with you. Especially if you motivate them individually. Hopefully the rewards they are talking about giving for people who are fully flagged are cool. Though I'm easy, I'd settle for a prefix that meant I was done every flag/key that was just opened (I'd have to go do the Cobalt Scar key though, not sure if I every bothered for myself, just others).

Missa

04-04-2008, 12:47 PM

I don't have a problem with the giving away keys to little used zones.
Doing the quests isnt hard if you want or have need to get in. The only part of them that takes time is finding the mobs up that drop the key pieces. SO those dont bother me at all.
The one's that bother me are the (at the time) endgame zones.
Time should still require the 4 piece quest (or 85/15 loot).
Tacvi should still require the Cipher of Txevu (its only three or four mini raids at this point). Open up the ability to get the raid, dont lose the raid.
VT bothers me the most. Open the door to the emp, so you dont have to waste time collecting the parts for the Ring of Shissar and the other two keys in SSRA. Open the Assassins door so you don't HAVE to have a lockpick skill. But you should still have to collect the pieces. Heck increase the drop rate to 100% on each of the Lucid Shard holders, that will make it ten times easier than it is now, and more people, the one's interested, will do it.

I have never raided anything prior to VT so I can't say how to change ST and VP, but ST key took less time to get than the Hand of Glory.

PoP flagging is a pita, and I have no arguments that due to the lack of ability to get people to desire to do it should not limit a person who wants to to complete it, I do think that a solo individual should fall short of gaining access to the final zone of each expansion, as a general rule. For those that want the story, you can still do the whole run of flagging if you want. Those that want easier access get it. And those that want there to remain something special about access to the end of the story get that too.

I would also rather the keys worked for a group as opposed to be non existant, but I can live with the difference there.

Now remember this is from someone who has been raiding less than a year... I've felt the pain of flagging and keying in unnecassary zones, killing green and grey mobs for hours just to have the named spawn without the piece Im after.

Bulbous-BB

04-04-2008, 01:39 PM

I don't think this will bring in any new players. There are some folks in my guild that would like to get some easy decent (?) loot for alts or possibly some clickies for mains. Other than that, nobody touches any of these zones. Impact on me = zero.

Imaim

04-04-2008, 02:29 PM

I'm in favor of these changes, but mainly due to my playstyle. While Grayhelm and others reminisce about the fun they had as a raid attempting a lot of this content, I rarely raid (outside of some Anguish raids and occasionally shots at Demi flagging events within our raid association) but I do like to attempt to kill old world raid mobs with one group or less. Similar to learning a raid strategy (less complex with less people, I'll agree), we'll often wipe a number if times while figuring out a strategy that works for killing a particular raid named (i.e. dealing with the SSRA cursed cycle DTs w/o a tank for one).

The unflagging of these zones will help me get some tangible value -- for my alts, mainly -- of having killed mobs that were formerly raid mobs with much less. I also get a lot of personal satisfaction from killing things with a few that were once top tier content, and using those kills to help my two alts be 'great' for their respective levels of progression.

I've been working up my war/shm box combo slowly and deliberately, getting all of the AC augs I can find, planning AAs, spells and gear progression at each level. While I do hunt/farm gear on my main, the majority of the xping (and thus, learning how the classes work) has been done on those two toons by themselves.

Does my warrior alt "deserve" a DBotW? Did my shammy box "earn" a Time's Antithesis? Probably not, but if my necro main and some of his friends can drop the named mobs in Time, should not one of our toons be able to benefit?

I could just race to 70 (or 80), get signets done and get my alt/box 85'd into Anguish for a seal and to start gearing up from there, and/or farm the heck out of DSH/LP/HoS/BMK on my main, but I'm really enjoying experiencing a lot of the content that was current before I started playing EQ... or after I started but before I had any idea what the hell I was doing (not knowing anyone who played irl before I started, it has taken a looooong time).

I think that opening up this content to avoid flagging requirements will allow more people the opportunity to do as I am doing, instead of encouraging them (via the path of least resistance) to rush to the end game in order to have decent agro/clickies/augs/dps. That's not to say anyone else will... but I, for one, will enjoy the ride sans the flagging requirements.

Brutul

04-04-2008, 02:41 PM

From a progression standpoint, there is no reason to go to any of these zones other than nostalgia. I'm actually somewhat impressed that you got 50 people to go through the GoD flagging nonsense for gear that's worse than what they can get in the bazaar. I'm glad you had fun, but I don't really see too many people doing that. Opening up these zones will make some people do them that wouldn't have bothered if they had to do the flagging. A lot of people will get to enjoy them that wouldn't have with the flags. In my mind, putting in single-group loot that is better than all but the highest level raid gear did a lot more to lower the sense of accomplishment for the guilds raiding lower-end content than removing flags does.

Grayhelm

04-04-2008, 04:05 PM

In my mind, putting in single-group loot that is better than all but the highest level raid gear did a lot more to lower the sense of accomplishment for the guilds raiding lower-end content than removing flags does.

That mudflation was certainly an issue, we actually rode it pretty well until TBS/SoF. We got into PoTime just as people were getting group gear from DoDh missions. We got into Qvic just as people started getting TSS tier 2 loot. We got into Anguish just as people started getting TBS gear. SoF blew it out of the water, we beat Sendaii last saturday (first Sendaii win) to complete our Blood raids, and we will finally beat Daosheen (please!), but looking into Demi and PoR, and it's hard to justify that raiding effort based on the loot.

Luckily for us we don't raid for the loot, we raid so that people can say 'hey, I saw this mob, never thought I would'. But we'll be taking the advice of a couple of people on these boards, I should think. We'll have a look at Demi/DK but we'll be thinking about TSS pretty soon after.

kilitnow

04-04-2008, 04:37 PM

I have long thought this was something very needed to keep eq alive.

I think keeping old content as hard to do as when the first guilds did it is counter productive. Think of it this way, when UBERGUILD_1 started doing oh say GoD it was brand new the rewards were the best gear around and doing things over and over and over till you got it right was easy to sell to the guild because it was for the best gear ever.

Now what motivates the guilds that come 2, 3, ... 7 years later? Its not the best gear we all know that. Some are motivated to do it as intended. Is that the majority tho? Do most people in eq want to pay 40 dollars then spend 4 years catching up to the pack?

I would say no so instead what happens is they join a guild till they get to level 75-80 then bail and join the uber guild and never enjoy 90 pct of the game. How much longer would they stay in the game if they got to explore all the things that eq is with out having to spend 3 years to do it? Frankly I see no loss to this. Those that want to grind it out still can, tho I am sure that won't happen much it is possible.

Kudedor

04-04-2008, 04:51 PM

I don't like this change.

I don't really like how flagging for zones works in the first place, either.

I think I'll just remain a malcontent on this subject.

Yelt

04-04-2008, 05:23 PM

I havn't looked at the whole list, but in general I like the idea. Of the zones listed, removing the seb key will save me plenty of frustration.

"Ok people, wait here 20-40 mins or so while we log on the trackers to get newbie_01 his key and hopefully still have time to play when we're done"

The key sits in your guild bank until someone needs keying, then they just take it to the zone and are keyed. No time needed by anyone as they were going to the zone anyway, right? And getting the one key for a guild is a solo task, no need for rangers or such - it's really trivial.

kilitnow

04-04-2008, 05:47 PM

Eq dont need slowing down and thats what keys in 7 year old expansions do. Its fine for new things to be slow because they are new old things need to be faster or people will just move on to a nother game that dont make them feel like they missed the boat.

Brokkah Narrow

04-04-2008, 06:00 PM

Cant see the problem with it myself. I flagged for all these zones the hard way and nothing will ever take those memories away from me.

If others get to experience the same content without that work, well their experience will always be tempered by the knowledge they didnt do it the same way that I did.

The only reason I visit these zones now is nostalgia and in some cases (ie Tacvi) to pick up clickies and augs for my alts. The fact some mains can now take an easier route to the same rewards frankly has no impact on my gameplay whatsoever.

Yoda

04-05-2008, 04:38 AM

well I haven't read all of your post (both on soE and here), but what they could have done to decrease the plus and cons is an automatic flagging when your level is more than 30% above the requierment.... so that lvl 46 req zones would be unlocked at worse at lvl 60, and so on. copy pasting the list of raytan, one would get this :

Required Level 46, Automatic Unlock at level 60
The Howling Stones
Old Sebilis
Cobalt Scar

Required Level 55, Automatic Unlock at level 72
Veeshan's Peak
Vex Thal
Sleeper's Tomb
Locked areas of the Temple of Ssraeshza

Required level 57, Automatic Unlock at level 75
Bastion of Thunder
Halls of Honor
The Temple of Marr
Tower of Solusek Ro
Drunder, The Fortress of Zek
Yxxta
Kod`taz

Required Level 60, Automatic Unlock at level 78
Plane of Water
Plane of Air
Plane of Fire
Plane of Earth
Uqua
Ikkinz

Required Level 62, Automatic Unlock at level 81
Plane of Time
Qvic
Inktu`Ta

Required Level 65, Automatic Unlock at level 85
Txevu
Tacvi

with the next expension bringing the level capat 85, you can see the unlock procedure being rather stead and sufficently away from current content to let people that want to make their own flags possible.

daw4888

04-05-2008, 03:35 PM

I really think its only a positive. All the zones they are unlocking arnt anywhere near the current progression of most of the EQ players. This allows all the small family guilds, and single group players to see more of EQ. What is wrong with that. And the people that accually did the progression. Gratz to us, we still have a huge eq peepee. There really isnt a reason that the lower end people shouldnt get to see these zones to. 99.99% of the loots in those zones are now far below the single group attanable content, so wtf is the problem.

Battleblade

04-05-2008, 05:38 PM

There really isnt a reason that the lower end people shouldnt get to see these zones to.

They are perfectly capable of seeing such zones by obtaining flags.

There's nothing less sacred about an old flag than a new one.

Nothing justifies me having to spend the entire month of February getting flagged while Nora nOObie potentially marches into Fabled VT and PoTime without doing a lick of flagging ever .

Grats to them - they have a small EQ pee pee that they did not even grow themselves. Even killing Foragers to get into Sebilis is Tooo Haaard(tm) for them.

Varalla

04-05-2008, 07:10 PM

I actually like your model better Yoda.
Rather than just unlocking an entire expansion making it zone specific by level requirements can make it interesting. (Like if there was only a particularly troublesome obstacle in the progression path, it could help bypass it and continue a form of progression rather than just unlocking the entire expansion)

It also adds predictability and seems easier to code.

Provided level increases and level requirements remain a constant.

cerrena

04-05-2008, 09:22 PM

Looking back, the moments I remember the most in EQ are often the moment we beat that final mob to get into some end zone. In fact, those fights were often more memorable to me then beating the end zone it's self. My husband was involved with a low level raiding guild last year. They ran two raids a week one for progression (they were working though mid-PoP raids) and one for loot (mostly Shyra at the time). I would think that a guild new to raiding would still be well advised to work though the PoP and GoD raids as I think they teach you a lot about how to raid.

All that said, I think this is a generally positive move, however, I was surprised at the lvls chosen. For example, I think 62 is a good lvl to unlock BoT and I don't really understand why they are lowering it. As it stands now the lvl is just high enough that it may be worth it to key for the zone for some players.

Jyllian

04-05-2008, 10:41 PM

Altho a tad bit of higher levels are nice, i do not think that's really an issue.

I mean with the percentage thats above level 75 these days, not to say level 80, its only a very small margin of players that are at those levels.

Then you could contend that with nowadays gear chars are ready for those zones earlier then in pop.

All by all. The levels may not be the best choice. But they will only have a small impact in this.

As to the choice of the way. What i feel was the goal, was once it was decided to move toward unlocking, to do it in such a way to minimise the work involved. So that as little devtime as possible is used up by it.

I would've prefered a better worked out plan to. But in the going of things, that was probably not an option, plus that any extensive new system would require much more work.

Still it wouldn't have been bad to also do any unlocking by stages. Meaning for example unlock everything up to except the last zone, possibly create a new event to obtain a new similar key to said zones. Easing it up as need to, but still involving some work to get in that zone.

Yoda's plan may have worked even better. But either of those would've prolly meant more work and such. Maybe more dev time then is available for the project.

The unlocking in itself isn't really a problem to me. As i see it those expansions went into the legacy stage, which means basically, like with software which goes into legacy, you can get it for muchly lowered prices, or even for free. This could be compared to getting to zones for muchly lowered effort, or no effort at all.

I applaud that the raidleader in many cases like time, or god will still require flagging to get instances. Maybe it would've been a better alternative to unlocking to. Where the raidleader would've required the flag, or the raidleader and each groupleader. but well. The decision has been taken :) and it doesnt make me mad, and in some cases will make life on me as a raidleader much easier.

daw4888

04-06-2008, 12:55 AM

They are perfectly capable of seeing such zones by obtaining flags.

There's nothing less sacred about an old flag than a new one.

Some of the flagging events require strait zerg. This is something smaller guilds, and single gorups cant do, ie ikutta*sp*. They shouldnt be kept out of these zones due to stupidly designed mechanics.

Grayhelm

04-06-2008, 08:55 AM

I applaud that the raidleader in many cases like time, or god will still require flagging to get instances.

That's not set in stone, that's like that because it will take more effort to remove. Rytan may well just get rid of it as well if he finds the time.

Goror

04-06-2008, 04:34 PM

Personally, I would have rathered they tweaked the keying/flagging process a little, instead of making it level based. For example, instead of praying for the 1 in a million chance at a shard dropping from the ME mob, why not have it drop 100% of the time from those few named. I am sure with some thought and very simple coding, that all of the keys/flags could have been simplified.

On a side note, does the Emp in Ssra still require bane weapons to kill? Are some people going to be in for a rude awakening when they try without them?

The first major con that I see is that more of the boss mobs will be on a "PoF Golem" farm cycle.

daw4888

04-06-2008, 06:41 PM

cerrena

04-07-2008, 06:40 AM

I wish I'd run a parser last time I did Emp but from observations I'd say I was doing far more damage with my current raiding weapons then with the bane weapon I dusted off from my bank.

Mendler

04-07-2008, 10:33 AM

Its about time! I'm really excited that they are doing this since I just dont have the time to do the flagging, keys and what not for the zones. I haven't been in half the zones due to this and I welcome the change from the casual side of the arena.

Dukimin

04-07-2008, 01:56 PM

This is the perspective of someone that is in year 4- 5 of the game. I have spent a fair amount of time flagging, to the following point (x # is number of alts):

Qvic access x 4, expect Inktu'ta raid this week x 2
SSRA emp acces x 4
Time x 3
Anguish x 3
DSK x 3
Fire x 3
ToSR x 4
DBoB x 1 (expect Queen raid this week to mean x2)

I split my time between two guilds, one raiding at Demi or so, the second is finishing Qvic flagging (third set of both raids) and Inktu'ta (second raid) this week. After that I doubt it will go back and redo those raids anytime soon.

As a result, I have a pretty good perspective on just how hard it is to find guilds that will support flagging, e.g.,

The second guild is the only one on my server doing GoD progression. The only other group likely to do GoD is our raid club 'Ring of Steel,' but I do not expect it will do the Qvic raids again and it never had enough attendance to do Inktu'ta. In short, most players on my server will not have much opportunity to get GoD flagging done.

My main guild cannot put a raid into VT because too few in the guild have bothered to get the shards and the Emp key and therefore not enough are VT flagged. Before you say that is just a choice, consider that a year is a long time in the life of a guild; it may not make much sense to flag people too early, and it may be that time runs out if you start too late. I spent several weeks to a month getting three (and a fraction) of my toons their shards, their orbs, and Shissar Ringed. It probably cost me, all in, a hundred aa's per toon to do that in lost time.

I have been SSRA keyed for about a month during which time a couple of guilds have taken the emperor but were unthoughtful enough to do so while I was not playing. This flag, as much of a PITA as it is, however, can get done, but putting it on a priority list for a once a year event does not seem to appeal to most folks.

We can raid Fire, Grummus, Bert, ToSR and Time, although with our numbers we struggle in some of those and have no hope at all in Time. We did do some backflagging before the Fabled season, and I fully expect that if the flagging change does not go through, we will bite the bullet and do more Elemental flagging to be ready for next year. I bet we don't do that until a month before Fabled season next year, though.

The upshot is that yes, you can do flagging still, but the reality is that you have to work much harder to organize the events to get the flags, even if the events themselves are much easier now. So few people will spend the time flagging old content that the net net is that there are far fewer 'new' players with flags than in the days in which that content was bleeding edge. What good is the feeling of overcoming huge obstacles when today's obstacles are getting players interested in showing up for events rather than the events themsleves?

I do see room for 'compromise.' The very end zones, it seems to me, might well still require a quest of some sort, but one that can be grouped and that requires days or weeks not months to complete. I doubt, though, that there is enough spare developer resource for the re-write that would be necessary, and that the level restriction idea is the practicable answer.

kilitnow

04-07-2008, 03:41 PM

Lets not forget that they put epic 2.0 drops in locked zones like water and fire. Why should a anguish guild have to keep up on PoP flags just to do their 2.0's? Its not just the casual raiders/ players that win with this. Frankly I think its a huge help to all. There is no reason to keep these zones locked when the gear is not at all upgrades to most groupable gear that is very easy to obtain.

Battleblade

04-07-2008, 05:10 PM

If you can't maintain flagging for Water, Fire, and Anguish (I know literally dozen of twinks with those flags - how weak not to have them on yer main if you are a raider) ....

....your guild and guildmates are not entitled to Epic 2.0's - yer not qualified to touch them them. Heck devs should delete your account - too lame to live.

( A non-lamer would petition devs to move the drops to something that more on the mainline of progression, not to eliminate flags. But hey, ANY excuse to eliminate flags is a good excuse - right??)

Goror

04-07-2008, 06:33 PM

I have thought about it some more...

I know a couple have mentioned that completing a flag/key process was a great accomplishment in their EQ career.

To me, the keying/flagging process are some of my worst memories of EQ. Mindless (endless) time sinks, kill stealing, trigger mob killing, and having to kill mobs numberous times to get a raid force flagged are just a few of the reason I hated the process.

I loved the encounters in the flagging process, but hated the concept. I hated the farming of shards for VT. I hated an Emp kill only flagging a handful of people (later changed to more flags). I hated killing dragons for one talisman to get access to Sleepers. I hated missing a PoP raid due to real life just to have to wait a couple weeks to get another chance at the mob.

Fighting the mobs was fun. Now more people can have fun.

kilitnow

04-07-2008, 07:03 PM

Ah yes BB eq should continue to hold down anyone that is not able to raid.... no not able to play 40 hours a week. That will keep the game going.... Dumb ass

I have got every flag in the game up to the content I am currently in. I did it fighting in guild trying to keep them together and watching countless numbers of so called friends say piss on it and leave to the higher end guilds because they were sick of waiting.

I know I should start a new guild today talk 72 people into doing the progression from ground zero to anguish..... Ya that would last all of about 2 months before it exploded. No one is willing to go though all that bull crap any more if sony dont start droping some of it off they will die faster and faster.

I am surprised they have accually started to plug their ears to the elite dip shits that think everyone should have to do things from ground zero. You know those people that try to force all guilds to suffer though things because they know that by doing so they will feed members to their guild ... Guess what when those guilds lose members they tend to start giving up and quit so 10 people go to a high end guild and 50 others just say piss on it and find a new game.

Its beyond stupid to keep ST as a locked zone. It is beyond stupid to expect people to farm vt shards any more. IT IS MIND BOGGLING to expect a anguish and above guild to maintain plane of water flags so their members can get their 2.0s . You want my 2.0 because I dont think is resonable to farm pop flags at this point? Come take it dumb ass if continually flagging a guild for 7 years worth of expansions is what you think is resonable on top of trying to catch up some on the new stuff then you might need it more then me.... you could use it to try and remove your head from your backside.

Frostpaw

04-07-2008, 07:32 PM

I have thought about it some more...

To me, the keying/flagging process are some of my worst memories of EQ......

Same here. It always felt like "crap. I've got chores to do" versus, "hey, the kids are finally asleep, lets log in meet some friends and have some fun!".

Mophios

04-07-2008, 07:47 PM

i have been in several guild that have had to fold to people getting tired of dieing to the same content over and over, so i can see how this will help out alot. its not like all of the end raiders or even the mid tier raiders are goign to be effected, its not unlocking any zones anyone above anguish is goign to be raiding again anytime soon. The only thing it is going to change is 1 month out of the year when fabeled are up.

Battleblade

04-08-2008, 02:54 AM

Ah yes BB eq should continue to hold down anyone that is not able to raid.... no not able to play 40 hours a week. That will keep the game going.... Dumb ass

.... you could use it to try and remove your head from your backside.

An Epic 2.0 is a RAID accomplishment. If you suck so bad you can't manage level 70 raid achievements with level 80 characters, delete your character now. (if you don't raid, you aren't entitled to an Epic 2.0. If you get one, /applaud. If you don't, /crickets). Lazy ass mofokker.

You could remove your microcephalic head from your fat lazy anus you pillow biting weaksause Sphincter Warrior.

i have been in several guild that have had to fold to people getting tired of dieing to the same content over and over

I've been in guilds that -

fought all the way through the PoP progression,

lost to OMM 50 times,

tried Sisters in Solteris knowing that our DPS was inadequate for months and unable to do ANYTHING about it except farm weapons and recruit.

and kept going (I've also been guilded with quiters - I'm glad they left. I wish they had left sooner.)

There are no guarantees in EQ. There are challenges, those that rise to them and beat them, and those that do not. Did you start a character on EasyQuest or EverybodyWinsQuest? I didn't (and neither did you.)

Mendler

04-08-2008, 08:52 AM

How do you put dumb fooks like BB on ignore on this board? He is a waste of bandwidth.

Varalla

04-08-2008, 09:48 AM

Dunno.
Im trying to figure out why BB is talking so much trash when my clickie gear has better augs than he does.

Ground Murkguilder eyes?
I mean WTF?

And we're lazy?

If you get off your ass, step outside the comfort zone of your guild, and actually try to better your self; maybe you wouldn't wipe so much.
You can't expect your guild to hold your hand through EQ.

Unfuck yourself before you belittle others.
And finish your combat AA's.

Self imposed hard mode indeed.

Brabble

04-09-2008, 01:02 AM

If I were the devs in charge of this I'd see if I couldn't give every character flagged for Time an option for a title reflecting that that accomplishment.

Personally, I only see two respectable lines of argument against unlocking Time. One is Grayhelm's; the other is that the weird combination of PITA and challenge and time sink that PoP flaggs represented was always part of what distinguished EQ from less complex games.

This would be a far cooler game if there were more folks in it doing what Grayhelm's guild has done in the last couple of years. But I suspect that there aren't many folks in that position.
And the second reason is really an historical artifact. Whatever function PoP once served, it does not serve that function now.

Kudedor

04-10-2008, 04:09 PM

According to the recent Test Patch Notes (http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?topic_id=130759), they are opening zones all the way through PoR.

CoA will be lots of fun for me if I can bring anyone and everyone in without finding them a gimp first. I don't think any of the rest will really matter to me.

Cowboyatheart

04-10-2008, 04:14 PM

Wow, CoA would be great. At least a few targets in there I could see our little guild being able to handle, assuming we could actually get into the zone. (some of us are flagged, but I don't think enough to kill anything that would drop a backflag)

Grayhelm

04-10-2008, 04:23 PM

Kudedor

04-10-2008, 05:09 PM

Makes me sad. Not because other people can do the content, that's great, but because I absolutely promise you, we'll never beat Daosheen now. Who'll want to even bother trying?

What do I say to my 45 casual raiders? Yes, let's try Daosheen 10 more times, let's beat that challenge, oh, all you get is erm, a couple of loots, because you already have access to all the zones.

Ah well. Ripped the guts out of our raid force.

How long before this goes live, though?

At worst it may kill your motivation to finish DK flagging, right? Is there anything stopping you from continuing on into TSS? What you guys have done so far is great. I would hope that there will be atleast some drive to try and finish your flagging before they push this change live. If not, you nearly made it past the relevant content before the change was announced. You guys made a great drive from pre-Time raiding up through all the expansions into PoR. I can't imagine that it wasn't worth the ride, or that the force won't wish to drive into TSS flagging and raiding.

Edit:
As Swansong pointed out at the SoE forums, you will still need to do Daosheen and the rest in order to receive the Divine Fetters of Ro

Battleblade

04-10-2008, 05:25 PM

You guys made a great drive from pre-Time raiding up through all the expansions into PoR. I can't imagine that it wasn't worth the ride, or that the force won't wish to drive into TSS flagging and raiding.

Grats those who made such efforts!!

And grats those who were unable to move through the raid progression. You have an absolutely free ride through in some cases two years (for others) of content where you have to get no flags whatsoever!!

Woo woo.

This is of course a "feature" of WoW and EQ2 - one less reason not to play WoW.

Mid-tier guilds that worked VERY hard to do this stuff - some well behind guilds are going to be catching up quick. This is a gap closer - between them and you.

I'll fondle MMM and Crys raid loot and frankly don't care - I didn't get squashed at all.

Happy days are here again! Woo woo!! (My twinks are a little happy and my main lol he dun care at all).

Kudedor

04-10-2008, 05:46 PM

...(My twinks are a little happy and my main lol he dun care at all).

So what does that mean? You are happy for the change? I've heard of compartmentalization as a coping mechanism, but I am not going to assume you actually differentiate between your own feelings depending on which character you are playing.

Battleblade

04-10-2008, 06:27 PM

Oh no, I compartmentalize like crazy (He he, a little joke. Shhh, they'll suspect!!)

This might demoralize some mid-tier guilds and make them targets for poaching from less demanding (and can afford to be since they don't have to flag) guilds behind them and potentially guilds beyond them who do have to flag but at least get better loot for the agony of having to do it.

Bleeding edge - we weren't going to get a break whatever happened.

So BB doesn't care if devs screw things up royally or not.

The twink Pally is excited (see, real compartmentalization). Whee plenty of people are going to be interested in Demiplane for their twinks now - Free Rides for everybody (and potentially L80/L80/LB - if it's barrrrrooooken, wear it.)

The neat thing is, being a twink he doesn't care if the mid-tier gets scorched either. It's all ph4t l3wts as far as the eye can see afahc.

Catamander

04-11-2008, 07:17 AM

As the game matures, the status and role of old content changes. If the old content is left with all the dynamics and requirements it had when it was end-game then it becomes non-functional as its role in the game shifts away from the more hardcore players and toward the more casual ones (who pay the bills and keep the lights on).

In the end, I see this simply as a recognition that the content being unlocked is now casual and open pickup raid content. It no longer is considered progression content or even raiding guild content. Hence, they are removing flags so that this content can be of some use to that body of the players who might play in it.

When the groupable gear largely surpasses the dropped gear in these zones, it hardly seems an issue for them to unlock it.

One thing to consider is that when someone gains access to Time or Anguish or Demiplane today, it isn't that same result as gaining access to these zones two years ago. The relative value of the gear and the impact that access has on how well one can play the game (relative to other content and drops available) has changed radically. Those zones have a radically different role in the game dynamics and progression today than they did two years ago. Flag requirement changes simply reflect that fact.

One would need to have a particularly myopic view of the situation to fail to recognize that getting into Demiplane today isn't remotely the same as getting into Demiplane two years ago. If anything, Demiplane is now a training room with a few good drops while on the way to bigger and better things. Once you learn what is to be learned there, your team really has zero reason to stick around. That is to say, there's really no good reason to farm DP anymore.

Silthrix

04-11-2008, 08:02 AM

Thanks Catmander for bringing civility and logic back to this thread :D

Kudedor

04-11-2008, 09:21 AM

While I understand your points, Catamander, I do not agree that they represent the entire picture. The flagging itself had value as an accomplishment. Sure, it isn't as difficult for a player today to flag for DSK or ToB as it was when it was new. However, that flagging still represented an accomplishment that held value. Now this game has that many fewer carrots. Is it worth the trade offs? I really don't know. I have begun to lean towards "yes", but that is primarily because I already had the flags I was interested in. =)

I think that future expansions will need to offer even more DoD/ToB style arcs now, to keep the EQ feeling alive. It's odd, but the removal of this aspect of the game, whether or not it affects me directly in any negative way, really does change how EQ looks to me. I'm hardly an elitist (look at my gear =p), but I do play EQ because I like the harder-feeling aspects of it. Before my group mostly went on Hiatus, we were working on grouping DoN/DoD/PoR lower raids, as much as progressing through SoF. Now, it will be easier to work on CoA and more 2.0s, with a wider selection of alts to choose from, I guess, but it won't feel as fun.

EQ is changing, but it has been changing all along, even before Luclin launched. I've been a skeptic the whole way, but here I am. =)

Rildoan

04-11-2008, 09:31 AM

All the older, locked zones are just that. The loots suck (ok, maybe not for tradeskillers vs Luclin), but the encounters give people the training and experience they need to tackle current content. There's no reason why Demiplane shouldn't be unlocked when people can buy the equivalent (with current group SoF foci!) from the bazaar for a couple hundred K plat and change.

The other half I see it as people that don't want to get flagged and keyed for those locked zones on their own unless SOE appeals to their laziness. Kinda sad to watch people ask "hey what you doing?" "Fabled VT" "ah crap CoA is all i'm flagged for", and they had 11 months to get themselves the VT key (Emp gets ganked on our server almost as soon as it's up).

Redhenna

04-11-2008, 12:37 PM

The stated intent of these changes is for new and returning players, and that makes a ton of sense. Those players should be able to mostly catch up with long term players in a reasonable time. Without that, there will be no new/returning players that last any length of time.

I suspect, with this emphasis for now on new/returning players, and a comment one dev mentioned about marketing the game, that there is the intention at some point this year to put money into bringing in these new and returning players. Lack of advertising has been a common complaint, but advertising a game that most players who respond to that advertising will find impossible to catch up in is just throwing money away.

Mendler

04-11-2008, 01:02 PM

They have to appeal to the population that only has 10 hours a week to play. EQ has never been a game that you can log on for 1.5 hours and accomplish a whole hell of a lot. Yes there are people that can but I'm not talking about you.

They need to have that instant gratification in this game or they wont be able to expand the game. Hate to say it like this but its true. I think its a great idea to make all the old zones lvl required. Kudo's to those of you who did the hard way but really who gives a shit in the end how you are in the zone just as long as you're in there experiencing the zone.
Those of you who have a problem with it need to stop acting like children. Are the people who now have instant access with their lvl really ahead of you? Not by a long shot.

enough said

Jyllian

04-11-2008, 01:03 PM

After thinking about this carefully i think the goal is also to make future implementation of new expansions easier.

Until now for group content it has always been gear must be worse then midtier, then midtier is from coa to dp, and so on. sof broke with that, but the stress in the community has remained that midtier goes as far as coa.

This means that for a while, mid tier content has stretched wider and wider, stretching over now 4 years of expansions. By this move i think the idea is to in one stroke bring midtier to 2 years, and keep it at 2 years from now on. In a way this is a complete new line of thinking. Which although giving a shock at first probably will help strenthen and lessen the gamefield.

May take some time but the ultimate goal probably is to have actual raid progression spread no further then 2 years.

I feel this is the main goal.

What sparked the extra drive. It is probably SoF, and the number of guilds which basically can't join raids because the spread is just to far, and to many are just to far behind. With this move, and pushing more players into newer content faster. Their next expansion will probably have the chance to appeal to more players then sof did, at least raid wise.

And that i think is a good thing over all. Players dont play a game where they wont see the newest expansion for 3 - 4 years ....

Yoda

04-15-2008, 11:05 AM

the downside is that merloc may not provide hate mods to group content because those wanting them can go in unlocked raid zone to get a hate mod from raid cantent... currently the Vadd's gauntlets may indeed be an alternative but I hardly see group (even top end) getting a redfang belt ever...

Silthrix

04-15-2008, 11:16 AM

Konair

04-15-2008, 11:20 AM

daw4888

04-15-2008, 12:11 PM

While I disagree that this will help new players (IE new to MMORPG in any way, shape, or form) it will definitely help with the endless backflag cycles that guilds do to get new recruits up to par. That said, maybe SOE should reward those that got the flags through hard work with a special title or AA's?

They did this when they removed the flags from PoP. They added the charm that improved as you gained flags. They should add something like a BiC aug that gains power as you gain flags for all the zones they are unlocking. They would have to make it good, so if you have flags for all the zones they have unlocked it would need to be something like 250hp/mana 20 ac, or something of the kind. It shouldnt be to hard for them to implement either.

Silthrix

04-15-2008, 01:24 PM

Good idea Daw. Something like a flag ubercharm...

Goror

04-15-2008, 01:59 PM

That said, maybe SOE should reward those that got the flags through hard work with a special title or AA's?

Either someone said it earlier in this thread, or in a different thread, but...

Your reward for getting flagged for those zones was having access to the encounters and loot for the past six years for PoP and four years for GoD. Hell, more than likely if you were flagged for these zones, you probably have already junked 90% of the loot you gained from them.

The more I read this thread (and others like it), I am really starting to like the idea of Sony opening all of these zones. Sure, a lot of people say that with the better items and higher levels it is easier to get flagged for these zones now than six years ago, but one factor isn't there...the players. With the lack of players, I contend that it might actually be harder to become fully flagged. Sure people might be one grouping these encounters, but can they one group the entire progressions without using current end game equipment (or casual gear)? I doubt it.

Brabble

04-15-2008, 05:23 PM

I'd argue that the first three guilds that got themselves Time flagged *and* the last three accomplished something. That's why I suggested a title or some such recognition.

u know what second thought let em unlock it
i would really like to see the level 80 tier 3 hardcore groupers with NONE TO LITTLE raiding experience
get pounded by scripts cause they never learned how to balance in god or deal with emote raids or really have to learn how to cure or setup ch rot or tank rot

If it's half as amusing as watching toons from raid guilds wipe in group content that ought to be trivial to them simply because it looks like they never learned to pull fewer mobs than they can handle at once, then yes, this would be a real hoot.

Varalla

04-15-2008, 07:32 PM

Swansong

04-15-2008, 07:49 PM

i was all for unlocking zones up to pop maybe even god just cause soe had god flagging fubared for way to long but really anguish demi deathkneel come on that just going to far

some of best memories was mpg trials
finnaly slaying the queen
tanking shrya for the first time (we did shrya before tunat so she was a huge test for me )
and now i know i'll never see daosheen wth
/grumble
/petiotion to slap whoever decided to change it

***EDIT****
u know what second thought let em unlock it
i would really like to see the level 80 tier 3 hardcore groupers with NONE TO LITTLE raiding experience
get pounded by scripts cause they never learned how to balance in god or deal with emote raids or really have to learn how to cure or setup ch rot or tank rot

As other people have said, people have different experiences playing. A lot of raiders can do group content as well, but I know plenty of raiders who simply flat out suck. Tanks in particular who can't deal with adds, who can't keep aggro without running of endurance every 10 minutes.

Then there are the monks who can't pull (dps in raids ftl), shaman who can't slow, heal and dps in a group (patch healers or DoT dps vftl).

Lots of examples just from my personal experience.

Of course, likewise, there are people who group a lot who couldn't raid very well.

Now let me ask you this - since you have to have grouped (at some point) to be able to raid.. who is the bigger loser?

-- The guy who only raids and has forgotten so much about grouping that he wipes his group in Bloodmoon Keep by tagging too early?

-- Or the guy who has never raided and tries one night, only to die on the first mob because he hit furious when engaging the named mob instead of fort, and gets one-rounded?

Konair

04-15-2008, 08:19 PM

If it's half as amusing as watching toons from raid guilds wipe in group content that ought to be trivial to them simply because it looks like they never learned to pull fewer mobs than they can handle at once, then yes, this would be a real hoot.

Since when do raiders not know how to handle adds ?
(demi sisters, hatchett, queen sendaii all come to mind)

since when do raid pullers never learn how to pull ?
(singling shrya, pull aug minis through trash )

hmmm ?

Swansong

04-15-2008, 08:23 PM

Since when do raiders not know how to handle adds ?
(demi sisters, hatchett, queen sendaii all come to mind)

since when do raid pullers never learn how to pull ?
(singling shrya, pull aug minis through trash )

hmmm ?

Because not everyone on a raid actually puts in the same amount of effort. I've seen some fairly shockingly bad warriors in my time in EQ. I've seen some really shitty monks too. Bards are one class that for the most part, pulling wise are ok (unless it's a crappy alt).

SKs are again, one class where generally they're mostly good.

Varalla

04-15-2008, 08:40 PM

Since when do raiders not know how to handle adds ?
(demi sisters, hatchett, queen sendaii all come to mind)

since when do raid pullers never learn how to pull ?
(singling shrya, pull aug minis through trash )

hmmm ?

Some do and some dont.
We nod to those that do as we pass, and watch and wait for those that don't.
Rez them, offer advice and move on.

One of the biggest problems I've seen is just bad group make up where they are lacking a needed class. (You need some form of CC to do Geartop. Ran into a group of raiders that tried without ending in dismal failure)

Why some never learn is beyond me.

Battleblade

04-15-2008, 10:48 PM

They have to appeal to the population that only has 10 hours a week to play.

And the result will be 10 hour a week EQ. Then of course they'll have to appeal to those that have only 5 hours a week to play. Those no life 10 hour a week players shouldn't have better gear and content shouldn't be designed to require so much time...

BTW - PoTime (Symbol of the Planesmaster), VT (Gloves of the Crimson Sigil, Bracelet of the Shadowhive), Sebilis (Thuncheon of Doom), ....., Anguish (2.0 orbs), Demiplane (Lastblood augs) all have drops highly sought after and treasured by Warriors and other classes.

This is not obsolete content with who cares about it drops. This is for the most part classic product defining rite of passage content with drops that distinguish those that made effort from those who couldn't be bothered (or chose not to raid).

Of course in 10, 8, 6, then 4 hour a week EQ, there's little room for making effort (and plenty of time to try out competing products, including life without EQ).

(I seriously doubt 10, 8, 6, then 4 hour a week/close to bleeding edge results EQ will happen - that's just the "differently effort abled" hallucinating. You needn't thank me for restoring rationality to this thread).

Brabble

04-16-2008, 12:24 AM

Of course in 10, 8, 6, then 4 hour a week EQ, there's little room for making effort (and plenty of time to try out competing products, including life without EQ).

Seems likely to me that this proposed change is one of SOE's efforts at preventing precisely what you've summed up in the paretheses above. Whether it'll be effective or not, I dunno. There are obvious disadvantages to it and like many efforts to do much the same thing over the last couple of years it'll probably cause some sort of bump in interest in the short term, then a return to gradual decline.

Ironically, the expressed fear here that really causual players will get some big bump in this or that piece of gear seems unlikely to me to be the main effect, certainly in the short run. The first thing that will happen is that raid alts and apps that lack flags will pick up specific pieces of gear, since they have the knowledge and resources to do so most efficiently. This will actually increase whatever gear gap there is, not decrease it.

Mendler

04-16-2008, 10:22 AM

Damn it! I didn't have ignore on for BB. I wanted to stab my eyes out after reading the post.

Last time I checked nothing below PoR was bleeding edge and yes you cant attain end game with that kind of tme spent. Hell I wouldn't go back to those zones if a friend or guildie didn't need some thing specific. Bottom line is just give those folks a bone so they dont have to spend hours/months getting flagged for ancient content. Good for them!

I was there not to long ago trying to gear up my war on 10 hours a week play time with no shot in hell at raiding at my play time. I'm very excited to see this change for family guilds on ever server. I hope they get to experience more expansions they paid for.

Varalla

04-16-2008, 10:45 AM

BTW - PoTime (Symbol of the Planesmaster)

Crap, I forgot all about SotP.
Is that one groupable?
(Heard somewhere some PoT stuff was one groupable)

Kudedor

04-16-2008, 10:55 AM

I can't think of anything in PoT that wouldn't be groupable, assuming you have the DPS to get past T1.

Kudedor

04-16-2008, 11:03 AM

...

***EDIT****
u know what second thought let em unlock it
i would really like to see the level 80 tier 3 hardcore groupers with NONE TO LITTLE raiding experience
get pounded by scripts cause they never learned how to balance in god or deal with emote raids or really have to learn how to cure or setup ch rot or tank rot

But how many Hardcore players of any type have "none to little" raiding experience?

If they do, do you really think it is that much harder for them to understand simple concepts and follow a strat like the last 50 guilds through those zones did?

If they ignore the strat and learn for themselves, so what? If they are "Hardcore" they aren't going to be despairing and giving up. What's so big about them dying a time or 6? I've done that enough times while learning to group old raids. It's fun, it's part of what makes EQ, EQ.

CH Rots, balancing, those aren't exactly difficult things to master. Some scripts seem much more difficult, but they also aren't constructed in a way that one group can realistically beat them. That's the real road block. It isn't a matter of your "Hardcore Groupers" being stunned, amazed, and dispirited by the difficulty of raids. It's the fact that those raids simply aren't designed in a way that is beatable by one group.

That post seemed awfully bitter, with an "Us and Them" attitude that fits right into election season. The truth is, there is a lot less "Us and Them" than certain EQLive posters try to pretend.

Ouruk

04-16-2008, 11:08 AM

I one-grouped all of P1-P3 at level 75 with less-than-Anguish level gear. It wasn't particularly hard except one thing.

Tier 1 - time lost zoning, you only have 60 minutes to do the 5 trials, or 12 minutes per (water takes about 5 mins tops) but... when you have members who zone in the 1 minute area that's 3 minutes lost between each trial. That adds up very quickly.

You need a wizard or a druid to get a group out of each trial efficiently - druid / wiz can succor or TL to bind and run back in (if bound at the dial in Tranq).

If you and your gang zone relatively quickly and have someone to port you out it should be no problem at all to get to P4. If just after a SoTP you only need to kill Saryrn - probably the easiest mob in Time so... go to it~

Battleblade

04-16-2008, 11:45 AM

Crap, I forgot all about SotP.
Is that one groupable?
(Heard somewhere some PoT stuff was one groupable)

Forgive me for asking. But separate from you (who I think once "confessed" to having more than a group involved in getting you an Epic)...

...why would anyone want/need to 1 group PoTime unless they 6-boxed?

With flags eliminated (getting pied was easy already) this becomes an even more obvious small pickup raid target. (12-18 should pwn this quite nicely)

FAR from being obsolete, given things like SoTP, Girdle of Intense Durability (damage shield), Silver Hoop of Speed (overhaste), HoHV, Prismatic Ring of Resistance, Serpent of Vindication, Time's Antithesis, Raex BP - EoA for those not with 1.5, 2.0, or QVic gauntlets, DBoW if you are "severely gear deprived" ....

Cowboyatheart

04-16-2008, 12:01 PM

Battleblade:

Complaining about removing flagging from zones is pretty much the same as complaining about zones with any sort of backflag. New app to your guild? Great, run through pop flagging again, or mpg raid trials again, or other required for flagging raid again. 85ing in new people and getting them a flag that way is not really any different, only now it's not 85ing and a backflag, they're just removing the flag requirement on older content.
If you really are as hardcore as you make out to be, you shouldn't be gimping along with the help of people who've 85'd their way into anything and got a backflag.

Battleblade

04-16-2008, 12:08 PM

Why thanks for letting me know what a player who wears a Girdle of Intense Durability thinks Cowboyatheart. I'm certainly shocked and surprised you feel as you do.

Read what I wrote above sir - largely the non-need to group PoTime and a list of the benefits of doing it. If I were in a highly casual or family guild or even usually a non-raider, that would be my target on Saturday until the "need" no longer existed - no question at all.

(Enjoy flagless shortbus EQ while I "enjoy" flagging every expansion - given where we both are that's our probable fate for as long as we both play. )

Geez. Back to meaningful discussion.....

PoTime is an obvious small pickup raid target.

With even the need to get pied eliminated, it's a gimmie. Raising a (small) raid force literally could not be easier.

VT is a little debatable, but PoTime isn't.

Cowboyatheart

04-16-2008, 12:16 PM

Read what I wrote above sir - largely the non-need to group PoTime and a list of the benefits of doing it.

Actually, I did read what you wrote, and was replying based on your unbeilable slacker guild and related comments that you so neatly edited out.

And yes, the rest of the post was constructive and most likely some things I and others with similar playtime/playstyle will be looking into.

Swansong

04-16-2008, 12:17 PM

Back to meaningful discussion.....

That's hardly possible with you involved.

Tell me, has anyone in your guild ever been 85'd into content and then looted a backflag? Something like TSS for example?

Varalla

04-16-2008, 12:41 PM

A number of reasons to be honest BB.
1. To see Time
2. To beat Time
3. Get a Darkblade (To use for raiding. DPS too poor for grouping)
4. SotP (To replace Aten gloves. Buff lasts longer)
5. To avoid having to go with a pick up raid (Not fond of sharing accomplishment with others.. And I tend to dictate strategy to raid leaders)
6. To avoid having to go with guild (Others might want a SotP)
7. For fun :)

After I get a darkblade and SotP I'd probably take the guild through so they can see Time.

Another reason I avoid guild raiding.
VT was easy to do... Till we took the guild *L*
They are good people, but faaaar less hardcore than us with little experience.
I want to scout it out and run through it a few time before bringing in the guild.
Make sure theres nothing to trip them up like the adds in VT.
(I KNOW I told them no freaking mounts)

And the number one reason?
To put PoP behind us so we can move on after all these years.

Battleblade

04-16-2008, 12:50 PM

Backflags are provided to all. (There have been some retroactive backflags. Bleeding edge guilds do not benefit much it at all from such things since they did not exist when they were still doin the content.).

There's a difference between a guild who had 85% of it's members beat the price of admission and maintained that long enough to obtain "pies" for others

and waving guilds past the entire flagging process.

If Cowboyatheat doesn't have a 5 year old SoTP to go with his Girdle of Intense Durability - he should get one.

Thanks for the reply Varalla. Without qualification I agree with most of your 1-7 list. I have never had much of a public or pickup raiding issue. (I attended probably 50-75 public PoHate raids waaaaaaaay long ago and many PoTime semi-public guild pickup raids).

(I believe that there's a raid leader and you keep your piehole shut and do what he says. Some people can't manage that. I'm not dissing them, but they aren't particularly well suited for raiding and raiding is not particularly well suited to them. Some of the better players I've met respond terribly to "orders" - they don't "get to" and they don't want to raid).

I'm sure if you did not suffer from Raiditis, you would have had an SoTP many many years ago.

Like I've often said, there's a world of difference between hardcore groupers/sometimes raiders and "differently effort-enabled" raiders. In some cases there more justification to putting things like SoTP in hardcore grouper content than dropping flags so no-effort can't even manage to beat PoTime 5 years down the road raiders can obtain them.

Cowboyatheart

04-16-2008, 01:10 PM

I do hope to get in there and get the SoTP. (missed out on it while the pickup raids were doing time, have since moved to anguish, and wasn't actually playing the game back when time was current).

Our guild has enough to handle alot of time I think, just not enough flagged to get far enough to backflag others, so this is a big bonus for us. (And forget flagging the long way, we'd do it and have tried to do it but the lower tier mobs may as well not exist for how often they're actually alive for us to even attempt to kill).

Are there any other must-have type drops to look for in time? (I know DBoW, missed out on that one too)

Varalla

04-16-2008, 01:19 PM

I agree with you 100% about the raid leaders orders.
That is a ummm... bit of a problem I have. :)
I'm aware of it, and purposefully avoid raids unless I'm leading them.

Even if I'm leading and we win, theres usually somebody that screwed up somewhere and I get really really pissed and even after the fact and everyone is giving grats I'm still seeing red.

Unless everything goes flawlessly I get more agitated than enjoyment out of it.
(And even then the thought "Hmmmm... I bet we can do that by ourselves." comes up)

I can raid when need be, just don't have the best personality for it :)

Battleblade

04-16-2008, 01:21 PM

I looked at your Magelo once Cowboy, it ain't happening again 8P

For Warriors -
SoTP
DBoW
Prismatic Ring of Resistance
Silver Hoop of Speed
Timestone Adorned Ring (not critical - but pretty unique)

some things only if you won't see better for a long while. Of these SoTP and to a lesser extent DBoW have the greatest longevity. Silver Hoop of Speed is nice for Warriors since they will not likely have Bard overhaste - but melee DPSers may have you assassinated if you loot it.

There's a mask and neck that pretty good from an AC standpoint but if you are hitting Anguish you'll be replacing them.

Bonus - Anguish
Golem Stone Face Guard
Hanvar's Hoop*
Totem of the Chimera*
Ring of the Beast*
Mask of Lament (for clicky)
Necklace of the Steadfast Spirit*
Notched Blade if no DBoW*
2.0 orb*
Symbol of the Overlord (never tell DPS meleers where you live)
Beaded Hoop of Demise
Cloak of Regretful Trangresions
armor
augs

* will be useful for awhile particularly if you are more AC oriented.

Varalla

04-16-2008, 01:36 PM

Silver hoop of speed is no longer a must have.
You can get same clickie from SoF group gear.
model xiv face plate. I wasnt overly happy with the AC, but it was still an upgrade for me.

EDIT: and its insta-cast

Cowboyatheart

04-16-2008, 01:58 PM

I need to update my magelo. I've picked up my 2.0 and some shoulders with ferocity V on them since last update. (which probably means no new anguish stuff for a while as my dkp recovers - the open raid uses dkp).

Rildoan

04-16-2008, 01:59 PM

nevermind

Battleblade

04-16-2008, 02:17 PM

Well, we could debate the pros and cons of the various masks. The one you are using is unbelievable for group gear (it could use another 10AC, but let's not be picky). For a raider - a little sketchy. Truth be told a raider at the Demiplane level (that being I think where the average raider is) will have encountered a few that are better.

And of course Fabled - but then there is some raid fabled in many slots that is jaw-dropping given the RvR.

I think what I've tried to say is that some of this soon not to require flags content drops items that have a fair amount of longevity. I think the price of admission was well worth the "cost" - even a month before Fabled - ESPECIALLY a month before fabled.

Probably today the price of admission drops to 0 (other than to raise a force capable of beating the content).

That being the case, there's no excuse for the vast bulk of raiding Warriors not to have each and every one of these items or better within a couple of months. A good half of the needed effort has been eliminated, 0 effort to maintain a raid force since everyone at the required level is "qualified", and we're talking level 65 and 70 content at level 80.

We shall see.

Kudedor

04-16-2008, 03:42 PM

Forgive me for asking. But separate from you (who I think once "confessed" to having more than a group involved in getting you an Epic)...

...why would anyone want/need to 1 group PoTime unless they 6-boxed?

With flags eliminated (getting pied was easy already) this becomes an even more obvious small pickup raid target. (12-18 should pwn this quite nicely)

FAR from being obsolete, given things like SoTP, Girdle of Intense Durability (damage shield), Silver Hoop of Speed (overhaste), HoHV, Prismatic Ring of Resistance, Serpent of Vindication, Time's Antithesis, Raex BP - EoA for those not with 1.5, 2.0, or QVic gauntlets, DBoW if you are "severely gear deprived" ....

I want to 1-group time. I want to be able to do it with my friends. I want to be able to bring our characters that got flagged the hard way, the ones that got the backflag, and the ones we created recently who have never raided PoP. I am really looking forward to the increased flexibility we will have for CoA, GoD, and PoTime grouping. It will be great fun for me and hopefully won't drive my friends batty as I drag them around. Beyond CoA, I see far fewer oppurtunities for a group to beat raid targets, due to event mechanics. DoN looks promising, atleast. That doesn't mean I would vote for this change, were we given the oppurtunity. But yes, I would want to one-group Time, with my friends and not 6-boxing.

As to the rest:

It never bothered me that I couldn't do these things, or that I needed to get us a few more backflags if I wanted to. I have plenty of semi-retired friends who could help 1 or 2 group Time to get those flags. But how does gimping those flags make this game any better? That's one of my gripes about the 2.0 and the lack of a groupable version at this point in the game. No, it isn't hard to get a character gimped in to loot a globe and seal. So? Now every hard-core non-CoA-raiding warrior gets a gimp for his 2.0. I don't like that leeching is the most reasonable way not to suck at our primary job.

I've been a raider, although not for a while now. I've attended more modern raids from time to time. I have no problem taking and following orders, and I've been in the position of giving them. If I still played EQ like I did years ago, I'd probably get back into raiding. I don't like the constant assumptions by so many players that raiders and groupers are vastly different types of players. I don't like the conflation of casual with non-raider. I think that people who constantly claim everyone who has lesser gear or progression than them is jealous are projecting their own character issues on others. I really don't care what anyone else accomplishes or whether I fall beind with my erratic play time. I know that I can do anything I need to and I've never had a problem catching up or catching my friends up. I know that if I return to raiding I am capable of playing at any level I want to, and that I play well enough that I can join any guild that has room for me. Why would I be jealous of anyone playing a different way than I am? Yet, I am a member of that constituency that some people feel the need to call jealous or "slack-ass", or whatever put down they pump themselves up with.

I think it is good that the Devs recognize that the game changes and that the large amount of content in EQ is both good and bad. I think that the recent changes are encouraging, even as I continue to evaluate the flagging removal. I also like that SoF contained actual tiers of content that you need to gear up to beat, with rewards that make it possible to do so. Sure, some people complained about tuning content for raiders, but people complain about anything. Sure, some people complained about infringing on old raid gear, but the group game needs some meat to it as well. I think that it is phenomenal that EQ has lasted this long. I see the scope of these changes, from OOC regen to one-year expansions and through the recent and upcoming changes, as necessary for the game to continue thriving. I say that even as I have disliked a few decisions. Some of the changes may turn out to be mistakes, but if they don't take the risk, I don't think that EQ is going to be around all that much longer.