Is tank aggro balanced?

[Sabrewolf]

Concerning aggro! Dev's have previously said Aggro across the 3 tanks is supposed to be equal. With a few exceptions for different situations, different tanks are going to have different aggro. Generally speaking... on a normal fight without a paladin blowing all his Virtue, because this is a temporary thing and not every fight, I want to exclude Pallies "superman" state...

Would you say that tank aggro is balanced?

[Dragorian]

Slightly imbalanced to the disadvantage the warrior post gu4, in my opinion.
Giving us our 40% agro boost back should fix it.

In a realistic raid scenario pladins can burn virtue points on about every named they tank now btw. They got an ability to refrsh all virtue points on a 20 minute timer.
Even if you do extremly fast farming, 2 paladins on a rotation would fix all virtue issues.

[Karnos]

Slightly imbalanced to the disadvantage the warrior post gu4, in my opinion.
Giving us our 40% agro boost back should fix it.

In a realistic raid scenario pladins can burn virtue points on about every named they tank now btw. They got an ability to refrsh all virtue points on a 20 minute timer.
Even if you do extremly fast farming, 2 paladins on a rotation would fix all virtue issues.
You shouldn't balance hate generation around players holding back.

You should balance hate around tanks going all-out vs raid bosses.

Take the total hate generated by a given class cast in the role of MT vs a hard raid boss, and that should be your baseline. Needless to say, we are talking hate generated during an actual raid with a full set of buffs and various short-term buffs, such as forced critical abilities, being used during the fight.

In such a scenario, hate generation currently goes:

Paladin >> Dread Knight > Warrior

It should have been:

Paladin = Dread Knight = Warrior

Once two-handed weapons are "fixed" and start dealing double damage on criticals (that includes finishers criticalling due to forced crit abilities, mind you), dread knights will take the lead again.

[Desiderius]

I don't think anything is "as good as it can be". There is always room for improvement. There is rarely something that is that finite. With that said, I believe that aggression is balanced across the board. Furthermore, as I've said numerous times before, I believe that good players > bad players rather than, 'Paladin >> Dread Knight > Warrior'.

[Bhima_LS]

This is an opinion from the only person in the group whose warrior isn't fiftieth level yet :)

As it stands now, the poll says 5 saying things are decent, and 5 saying they need fixing. After 13 or 14 months of playing my warrior and around 12 months since they took away leap attack, I've gotta say that's exciting good news. The fact that half the warriors who took the pool in this site are content with aggro control is HUGE progress.

On the flip side, the fact that half the warriors feel we need that 20% aggro back in defensive mode which the other two classes got to keep is also significant and something I think should be taken seriously.

I don't raid (obviously since 'til 3 or 4 days ago I've still been using 37th level and 38th level swords on a 48th level warrior, and now I finally got a 48th level sword on one hand--and my armor still stinks). But I do group with lots of pick up groups and friends of friends and whatnot, and I've been in a few groups with paladins lately.

In fact, I had a fun 5-person group where everyone else was 50th level and I was 48th level, and the 50th level paladin was the main tank instead of me being the main tank (first time ever I wasn't main tank). I was still in defensive mode (didn't want to risk getting clobbered by 5-dot 51's and whatnot), and I didn't use any of the pure aggro spells. I only used pommel smash, kick, my basic heals and group buffs, and my basic DPS spells (only dps chains and hits).

And I was quite frequently pulling aggro off the 50th level paladin without even trying. Sometimes when there were add ons and I main tanked the add on so he could focus on the main monster, even if I only got a few second head start on aggro with the add on, I could hold it against that 50th level paladin.

Does that mean that I wouldn't like to see the 20% hate back on warriors? No, of course I'd like it back. Anything that can help me keep the party alive I'd like.

But it does mean that after months of frustration playing a class because I liked it but not because it was particularly good, I now have a clas that I both like and feel is good.

I'm glad that 5/10 warriors are happy with the class. I'm very happy with that.

Now a little tweaking to make even more happiness with the class would be welcome.

**bows**

[Dragorian]

I think Caelik had some valid points @ http://www.paladinsoftelon.com/showthread.php?t=1001


Re: Is tank aggro balanced?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

depends on situation,
multiple mobs: War, DK, Pally

Single trash mob: War, Pally, DK

undead trash mob: Pally, War, DK (if Pally is not using Sunburst then War would lead just like a normal mob)

Boss Mob: DK/Pally War
Undead Boss Mob: Pally, DK, War

Sad, but true.

[Venge]

I've been avoiding this for a while because regardless of what I say gets ignored anyways. It all depends on the players. When I want agro, I have it, when one of my tanks want agro, they get it. When we fight for agro, it bounces. It's all on personal experience and how players play.

[Desiderius]

I've been avoiding this for a while because regardless of what I say gets ignored anyways. It all depends on the players. When I want agro, I have it, when one of my tanks want agro, they get it. When we fight for agro, it bounces. It's all on personal experience and how players play.

Exactly.

[Karnos]

When a paladin blows his virtue on a boss mob, you do not get aggro no matter what you do as a warrior, short of using target-force abilities or repeatedly dropping the paladin's hate using Withdraw, neither of which have anything to do with tank hate balance.

If you are able to keep aggro bouncing between yourself and a paladin (both in the same group) throughout a boss fight while both of you are trying to get aggro, then one or more of the following are true: 1) The paladin is not using his best DPS-increasing gifts of virtue, including Fury, Paragon, Zeal, and to a lesser extent, Dictum and Sunburst; 2) the paladin doesn't have a clue how to maximize his DPS output by taking advantage of forced critical and short-term DPS buff windows; 3) the paladin isn't in defensive; 4) the paladin isn't using a shield; 5) the paladin is using a completely inferior weapon; and/or 6) someone is reducing the paladin's hate, either periodically via something like Withdraw or permanently via something like the Gift of Peace buff.

[Dragorian]

When a paladin blows his virtue on a boss mob, you do not get aggro no matter what you do as a warrior, short of using target-force abilities or repeatedly dropping the paladin's hate using Withdraw, neither of which have anything to do with tank hate balance.

If you are able to keep aggro bouncing between yourself and a paladin (both in the same group) throughout a boss fight while both of you are trying to get aggro, then one or more of the following are true: 1) The paladin is not using his best DPS-increasing gifts of virtue, including Fury, Paragon, Zeal, and to a lesser extent, Dictum and Sunburst; 2) the paladin doesn't have a clue how to maximize his DPS output by taking advantage of forced critical and short-term DPS buff windows; 3) the paladin isn't in defensive; 4) the paladin isn't using a shield; 5) the paladin is using a completely inferior weapon; and/or 6) someone is reducing the paladin's hate, either periodically via something like Withdraw or permanently via something like the Gift of Peace buff.

Exactly.

[Karnos]

I forgot: 7) Someone (e.g., rogue or monk) is transferring a lot of hate to you or giving you a hate bonus while leaving the paladin to fend for himself in that regard.

[Venge]

Nah, I proved that theory off when doing Kotasoth when everyone is focused on DPS and not hate transferring. When going full out on dps as a warrior, never lost it. And yeah, my paladin was doing the same in burning virtue points. Our dps = way more streamline with spikes given from dps buffs (also given that they now all stack).

[Dragorian]

So actually paladins have a lot less agro than a warrior when they don't burn virtue points?
Because the increase of paladin dps with virtue buff stacking is huge.

Paladin hate can't be balanced in relation to other tanks independent of virtue buff stacking.
So either they generate superior hate using virtue points or they generate inferior hate without them.

My experience from playing a warrior in legendary gear and playing a paladin in heroic gear is that my paladin will get agro from any tank when I burn virtue points.

One single raid fight with a lot of variables proves nothing.

[Venge]

Well you're correct one raid fight won't prove the "overall" balance of hate. I look at certain fights where you can really see the head to head fight for hate take place and hate transfers aren't in the equation as those fights tend to be hate fights. I mean easy examples are X99, X-83, X-77, Admiral, Kotasoth, Cartheon Bonebreakers, etc. Pretty much fights where you have to bounce agro or ensure the 2nd tank is next in line on the hate list.

Probably the best example is Exalted X99 where everyone is pretty much in burn mode. Now without giving out the strat, you know this is an 8 minute burn fest. I mean it fits the bill for a warrior on any given day. This fight alone demonstrates that the warrior can output optimal hate and dps at the same time. Personally, I enter this fight with Power Attacking/Unyielding Might, Shout of Defiance, Press the Attack, Shout of Fury, Strike Now, and the Cleave/Savage Cut/Stinging Cut/Blade's Bite Combo so I tick the most damage as possible. Then of course continuing with Decimate and all of that. Out of all the kills we've done on this mob, I can probably count on one hand how many times I've lost hate due to undisclosed reasons (without spoiling). But to the point, the fight is about maximizing hate and high dps at the same time from everyone in the raid, its a true stress test to see how balanced hate is. Point is, any given tank can get the agro and keep the agro, just depends on the method they use.

From my raid experience in VG pre and post GU4, the warrior on any given circumstance can pull agro from the paladin or dk. They can do the same to us. Withdraw only makes it easier but to be honest, I haven't used Withdraw since November. I

[Deathfist]

For me, I think Tank aggro seems pretty fair, I don't know if I am the best warrior out there, but i can say I can't find a pally of dreadknight that can consistantly out aggro me. Here and there you'll see them take it, due to a crit or too many misses by me or no line of sight....stuff that is expected.

I think tank aggro is actually really well balanced, what people don't realize or may not wanna admit, is pre GU4 warriors were top aggro no doubt, even I know that as I was experiencing this....our gap against a dk wasn't all that much, but against a pally...well I could get aggro anytime I wanted.

I've said this eover and over again, the warrior has issues, aggro isnt the issue. The issue is the warrior's survivability and some of our buffs (grim determination and the 8second buffs and charge, as well as leap attack still being off our ability lists) is the issues. And as long as everyone keeps focusing on aggro the real issues my never get solved.

[Sabrewolf]

As most know, I polled all 3 tank websites with this exact poll. Results are:

DKs: 12-12
Wars: 5-10
Pals: 12-6

http://www.vanguarddreadknight.com/forums/showthread.php?t=383

http://www.paladinsoftelon.com/showthread.php?t=1001

Seems pals are most comfortable with current aggro. Wars are unhappy and DK's are most involved, but opinions are very different. This doesn't mean anyone in particular is out of balance, but it does give us some insight to who's happy with their current aggro and who isn't. Some good arguements have been posted on every site and I encourage everyone to check them out.

In my opinion, DK's and Pal's are happier then Wars because of the recent update. Had this poll happened right after Wars receiving some attention, things may have been different.

[Dragorian]

nm

[Nosnifedge]

I raid 4-5 nights a week and we do the rounds on every raid mob in the game weekly. We most often run with 1 War (me), 1 pally (Pally ClassLead Barar or Hadrian), and 1 DK (Either the DK ClassLead Xaices or Mardukas who is an ass to be sure, but probably the finest DK around). I cannot pull agro from either the pally or DK whenever I want... Not by a longshot. IF I get lucky and hit 3 crit chains back to back while having the energy to snarl/taunt/AE taunt, then maybe I can score agro for a couple seconds, but that's it. Both of them can in fact pull agro off of me or each other on command without forcing the target.

Both Pally and DK get agro based on the use of a character skill boosted by Virtue or Dreadful Continence respectively... A war must get lucky to command agro.

Not every mob we fight is the same exact story every week, but I can make this broad observation based upon repetition. The same mobs, the same raid with the same Pally, War and DK... every week, again and again.

I submit that DPS, 20% hate gen per hit, weapon procs, ect. are much less of a balance issue than allowing two of three tank classes to have a 'turbo' ability if you will, while the third (incidentaly the only non-hybrid) tank has no such turbo. Its the Virtue/DC turbo that DKs and Pallies can call on that gives them such a significant edge.

P.S. Don't even get me started about invulns...

-Nos

[Dragorian]

/nod Nosnifedge

[Dragorian]

I found an interesting statement (http://www.paladinsoftelon.com/showthread.php?t=976&page=8):


[...]raive is certainly not outagroing when i do a full virtue burst, actually i hate beeing secondary tank because i have to not use any dps virtue else i will steal agro even without defensive and peace on me.

[Defiant]

Nosnifedge you hit the nail on the head.

[Dragorian]

Paladins just out-dps'd everyone but our monk on X99.
I guess everything is balanced.

[Chagas]

Hey Venge, please tell us there's nothing wrong with agro again - cuz we had mobs ping-ponging between all three classes of tanks like it was no one's business. An arrow could out agro a Pally (once) but we had issues pulling a book off of an AFK Cleric. But hearing your words, that'll make me feel so much better.

[Jeragon]

There was some weird shit going on with aggro last night for us as well. I was gone for a two min afk and came back while another tank was tanking a trash mob (war). I put on offensive stance, hit kick and the mob turned onto me. This was after i had been gone for the first 20% of the mobs HP.

Also, why are Paladins consistently out DPSing me ? Are we not supposed to be the DPS tank? Its funny because that was the description I read when I rolled as the Warrior.

Our two paladins, in ichy armor, are consistently in the top 5 in DPS, its a little ridiculous. Only person that can top em ATM is our Monk.

[Tolstoy]

If you have aggro ping ponging between tanks in defensive, then you're just proving his point.

[Desiderius]

To mitigate aggression 'ping-ponging', as you so eloquently put it, between tanks, you could always resort to designating one the MT. That way the other two tanks know not to take aggression from that person. It's harder to stay on secondary aggression than it is to maintain primary aggression. Tell your tanks to know their role and you will not have any problems.

[Chagas]

To mitigate aggression 'ping-ponging', as you so eloquently put it, between tanks, you could always resort to designating one the MT. That way the other two tanks know not to take aggression from that person. It's harder to stay on secondary aggression than it is to maintain primary aggression. Tell your tanks to know their role and you will not have any problems.

Not to put too sarcastic a point on your response but, GOLLY, YA THINK? Any guild that hasn't just emerged from the womb knows and understands this.

Excluding myself from the formula, the tanks I'm talking about are as good as any others in game, that leaves two options - 1) Agro in APW is borked or 2) Agro between tank-classes is borked. Pick one, I don't care much either way.

The Paladin had anti-hate buffs on the non-tank tanks. Warrior tank was in defensive stance, but for what reason?! Not one of the tanks could get reliable agro doing things the "right way." Once we all switched to offensive stance things stabalized some, but please, don't come in here and start with the Know Your Role crap - assume competence first. In what world should a raid have to wait till the mob is down 20% by the tank alone before in engaging? Ok, that was hyperbole, but still, something is wrong.

[Desiderius]

I never assume competence first. People are stupid. I assume incompetence. The easiest way to fix your problem is to tell your OT to back off some. Problem solved.

[Dragorian]

http://www.paladinsoftelon.com/showthread.php?p=9075#post9075

Turns out our extra damage from 1h/shield was adding +150 damage, instead of 15%! This is now fixed, but explains the huge damage that low level paladins were seeing. It used to be only 7-8% at lvl 50, it should be giving the full amount now.

That explains the recent increase of the paladin dps I see in raid parses and it explains that they have a significant agro advantage now.

The pre GU4 hate parsing outside of a raid environment had no significance before, but with the recent news you can consider it as wasted time at best.

[Azral]

For me, I think Tank aggro seems pretty fair, I don't know if I am the best warrior out there, but i can say I can't find a pally of dreadknight that can consistantly out aggro me. Here and there you'll see them take it, due to a crit or too many misses by me or no line of sight....stuff that is expected.

I think tank aggro is actually really well balanced, what people don't realize or may not wanna admit, is pre GU4 warriors were top aggro no doubt, even I know that as I was experiencing this....our gap against a dk wasn't all that much, but against a pally...well I could get aggro anytime I wanted.

I've said this eover and over again, the warrior has issues, aggro isnt the issue. The issue is the warrior's survivability and some of our buffs (grim determination and the 8second buffs and charge, as well as leap attack still being off our ability lists) is the issues. And as long as everyone keeps focusing on aggro the real issues my never get solved.


Exactly.

[Dragorian]

I can't believe how many warriors run through VG, have their eyes closed and just watch how the class is slowly dying.
No warrior matches a virtue burning paladin ... neither pre GU4 nor post GU4.

[Chagas]

Ya mean like Venge - right?

I'm tired of occasional cryptic posts that infer he's in communication with devs. One might think that the complete lack of posts by warriors here might, just maybe point out that there is something wrong with the class... why bother posting when the class lead just ignores anything that's "not in his realm of experience."

I think this quote from Venge sez it all: "That's my personal experience and from what it seems it vastly differs from majority of this board."

Vastly Differs, huh? But everyone else is wrong. Everyone.

I'd truly like to thank you Venge, for all you have done for the warrior class. I'd like to, really, I would.

[Bhima_LS]

I don't see what Venge has to do with the bugs that give Paladins more DPS than they're supposed to.

I know that for ten months the warrior class was seriously flawed, and he negotiated some seriously good fixes for us that went live in G3.

Just because with G4 the team made some mistakes with non-warrior classes that tilted the balance incorrectly has nothing to do with Venge. He's not the paladin and DK lead.

The warrior class is excellent. Balance is a totally different story and not the fault of any warrior player.

[Dragorian]

No, I'm not attacking Venge. I don't need to be cryptic, that's not my style.

I'm disappointed with the warrior community who keeps repeating that all is fine with our class when it is not.
The community is completly weak ... there's not a bit of warrior spirit on this boards.

[Venge]

The warrior spirit is down because I have nothing to report. Remember when GU3 went live and we got all our changes. Also remember when during last summer we got our first pass, boards were crazy. But when there's nothing to post, nothing I can really say but wait our turn. We have enough evidence on what needs to be worked on, but first things, first, you have to see the problem before you have the solution.

[Ehmcee]

There is a serious issue when the class lead is claiming he can take/maintain aggro anytime he wants while his own guildmates and the vast majority of warriors claim differently. That without a doubt is the core essence of our class and why i played a warrior in the first place. I could give a shit less about soloing or my survivability while solo. I played a warrior in Vanguard to raid and group and expect to have the tools to do so effectively. As things stand that is simply not the case nor has it been the case since I have played this game.

It is not a matter of gear since I am in one of the top guilds in VG and well geared. It is not a case of using abilities as i've macroed and gone through every one of them. As it stands knights have to tone down their dps even in offensive stance with GoP on, and that to me is a huge problem. I would certainly hope that most of us warriors are here to tank, screw pulling off mediocre dps in offensive stance, we give up utility to take hits and maintain aggro.

I much like Socratic, dont want to spew rhetoric that Warriors should be the "Alpha tank" of Vanguard. But, I certainly do not believe that we should be behind any knight class period due to our lack of utility. Warriors rightfully gave up utility and solo ability to be pure tanks, much like rogues are pure dps regardless of minor utility abilities.

I don't know venge well nor do I care to know him, if he doesn't see the present huge limitations of our class then somebody else needs to take his place, period. I could give 2 shits who he knows or who he talks to on a daily basis it simply doesn't impress. Fix the fucking warrior class then brag about who you talk to on a daily basis, if your unable to do so, pass the reigns to somebody that can.




Ehmcee
Blades of Wrath

[Dragorian]

Warriors rightfully gave up utility and solo ability to be pure tanks, much like rogues are pure dps regardless of minor utility abilities.


What is a 'pure tank'?
We take a knight, we strip all solo ability, we remove all utility and just leave the tanking characteristics on it and call that 'pure tank'?
I call that crippled tank. That's what the warrior is right now in VG.

Rogues are supposed the top dps of the melee classes (dev statement) That's a reason to give up utility and secondary roles.

If we give up something, we need to get something in return. But it won't be anything that let us tank better in any aspect, because not even the wimpy warrior community supports that approach ... let alone anyone else.

[Chagas]

Dragorian wrote: I can't believe how many warriors run through VG, have their eyes closed and just watch how the class is slowly dying.

Dragorian, I did not think that you were being cryptic, I did however, think what you wrote was a great description of Venge, I just wanted to clear that up.


Dragorian wrote: What is a 'pure tank'?

That question doesn't matter. VG Warriors are a shadow of what we could be - and yes, I do attribute that to a class lead who, for all practical intents and purposes appear to be nothing more than a toady to the Dev's. Other class leads make noise, other class leads communicate with their class. Ours tells us to be patient. That's total crap.

Venge wrote: ..., but first things, first, you have to see the problem before you have the solution.

I think the solution is obvious as Ehmcee wrote:

I don't know venge well nor do I care to know him, if he doesn't see the present huge limitations of our class then somebody else needs to take his place, period. I could give 2 shits who he knows or who he talks to on a daily basis it simply doesn't impress. Fix the fucking warrior class then brag about who you talk to on a daily basis, if your unable to do so, pass the reigns to somebody that can.

[Nosnifedge]

http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/showthread.php?t=18006

[Gruntz]

IMO
tank class ballance for hate is =
i have no problem holding a mob. i did have a problem untill i was informed on some mispractices i was doing.

once i started using the abilitys the best way, i can hold a mob off a pally/dk with no problem.

its all about the Role you are playing.
our job as MT is to be #1 on the hate list.
our job as MA is to be #2.
so if your MA (pally/dk/war) is doing his job, he is giving you the ability to be #1.
or if you are doing your job as MA you are giving the DK/Pally the ability.

its not about fighting to be #1 its about Doing your job.
every Tank class can hold agro off of all the DPS classes. (if everyone is doing there job)
if you have a stinkin Druid that just cant get it into his head not to pull agro... well thats just the Druids fault.
and he should die... so the healers can get back on me and quit waisting mana.


if you have a tank that is consistantly not holding agro off of the raid (THEN thats a problem) but we dont have that problem. unless you just plain suc playin a war, and if you do.. talk to someone, and they will tell you how to do it. Raive is always #1 when he is tanking. and is very helpfull when asked. but not to overburden him ask other warriors. omg we are trying to help each other out arent we?


SURE a pally can use his virtue and pull a mob off of you as the MA, just as any class can, but then he wasnt doin his job now was he?

being #2 is not hard.
if you think it is, talk to your fellow War's

but all in all there will never ever ever be a day that all the tanks are =
because you have player A that doesnt play his class to its full potential, and Player B who doesnt mis a chance to get hate.
then there is the issue of Raid vs NonRaid content.

its all in how YOU play your toon, YOUR skill.
quit doing everything the same every day, try a different way.. if it works keep doin it. if your not holding agro, change it.
always try different combos.


this post had no intentions of picking on any 1 of you, it is just my 1 take.
you all may have diferent ideas.
but at this time there is NO ALPHA TANK. IMO

[Barum]

Hi, all

From what attribute efficiency taunt abilities depends?
The reason in what DK the spam hate is much more effective WAR? There is an impression that abilities taunts work not correctly.

[Dragorian]

Taunt is affected by INT.
The effects of INT on our taunts were supposed to be replaced by STR, but it never happend.

Roar of Fury seems to be static 1782 hate.

[gprunescaper2]

I got banned :( :(

[Barum]

Hi.
On what attribute now depend taunt skills
It seems to me or they are tied up till now to INT, if not to INT, to what?

[Mythanor]

Taunt is affected by INT.
The effects of INT on our taunts were supposed to be replaced by STR, but it never happend.

Roar of Fury seems to be static 1782 hate.

:D

[Lowlisee73]

im kinda stuck with my lvl 70 infantry human.. you see i want to be a tank but i asked someone that the best tank is suppose to be ELF class T_T.. what should i do now.. should i go to knight or still a phalanx?? huhuhu