This just pisses me off.

[Daemonwynd]

I posted this in another thread, starting its own here... this kind of crap really shows the problem.

Had a paladin and a warrior in a pickup group the other day. Paladin had 5khp and a Facesmasher, Baron title, level 64. Warrior had 8khp, Hategiver and BoC, Veteran title, level 65.

Pally was tanking for a bit, chanter slowed on inc, there were no problems. Warrior and pally checked tank stats, switched to warrior tank shortly thereafter.

Warrior takes over with two of the best warrior aggro weapons in the game... Both in the top 5. Hategiver and Blade of Carnage. Chanter slows on inc, chanter kept getting aggro and pounded on. Chanter dies.

Now this stupid friggin chanter who couldn't manage her aggro or learn to work with a warrior tank whined and bitched and complained that she wanted the paladin to tank, who was half as good of a tank as the vastly better equipped warrior, and finally left the group. All because the 5khp crappy paladin wouldn't tank instead of the 8khp warrior.

That kind of crap just absolutely pisses me off.

[Arny]

Sounds like the pally wanted booting to me.

It makes sense to let an similarly equipped/aa'd warrior tank in most situations when you have both in the group, but it also makes sense for the pally to stun lock the mob and then hand it to the warrior once the mob is debuffed, but also have their stuns ready just in case.

This way you get the best of both worlds, the healers don't waste mana doing fast heals at the begining of the fight and CH is optimised for the rest of the fight.

[Daemonwynd]

Yeah, I know the tricks, and I started using more of them as needed, when I saw how badly she managed aggro.

Still, it shows the extent of the problem when people would rather have a vastly inferior tank for the sake of the aggro they provide, instead of working with the admittedly much better tank who requires casters to manage their aggro, does it not?

[Apothes Drudoll]

Still, it shows the extent of the problem when people would rather have a vastly inferior tank for the sake of the aggro they provide, instead of working with the admittedly much better tank who requires casters to manage their aggro, does it not?


/agree

It also shows the lazyness of casters thees days. Hopefully SoE will give them a wake up call soon.

[Arny]

I think it shows how inexperienced some players are!

When pop first came out I had similar problems with my enchanter when grouped with warriors compared to knights. Then we were grouping with mainly mid 60's characters with few aa's and sub-par gear compared to what is available now. The problem was that if I tashed and slowed too early I often ended up dead, but if I didn't the warrior would often end up dead. Under these circumstances a knight was by far the preferred tank.

Now it really makes no difference if my enchanter groups with a warrior or a knight, they (the tanks) tend to have better gear (my pallies hp and ac has gone up by about 2k and 300) meaning insta-slowing is no longer essential, plus my ench has the spells and aa's now to not gain the agro in the first place, or if he does he can take a beating without losing hp (rune spells and aa), and he can lose that agro fairly reliably through spells I didn't have in early pop.

[Tasso]

yea but its oh so funny watching a pally try to tank wheaties* when it resists 2 slows and drops him before the cleric can get a heal off. Should have hit defensive.. oh thats right.. Sorry...






* wheaties= Same mob, same zone, same level but hits like its got more atk and hasted.

[Casai]

this is perfect example actually probablem is not in paladins problems is in mr/ms dumb ass enchanter and that knights agro allows this sort of behavior. Dumb asses have to learn the hard way I'd personaly not wait for chanter to leave but them. This day and age my patientience runs short with this sort of thing.

[Bunnie Burner]

Pally was tanking for a bit, chanter slowed on inc, there were no problems

Why would you let the warrior tank?
I know I wouldn't.. with the paladin we would have faster exp, and the paladins self heals could compensate the few extra CHheals between fights.



yea but its oh so funny watching a pally try to tank wheaties* when it resists 2 slows and drops him before the cleric can get a heal off. Should have hit defensive.. oh thats right.. Sorry...

I've watched knights with less hp and ac tank better then me,
SKs with their lifetaps are incredible.

as for defensive... well imagine you've used it 5mins ago to a mob that resisted slow twice...
and now another mob resists slow twice... use defensive? aha, no, sorry.

((venting))

[Gunrack]

I shall vent as well. Now I am only in Tier 1 planes ATM so I am gonig to assume I don't suffer as much as some of our other brothers in higher tiers for agro. The lower I go from Tier 1 the easier I hold agro or the less important it becomes that I have 100% lock.

Again I am going to say what I've said before about this damned issue. It is said that xp comes in faster. Well, I just don't agree, at least not at my stage of the game or the knights that I've been grouping with. Sooner or later, usually very very soon. Knight says to group, " I gotta med for a bit". The idea of everyone in the group not only trying to kill things properly and having mana for chain pulling, cleric making sure they properly heal to maximize their mana and the dude thats supposed to tank has to med? WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT? This is exactly what I've been hearing in the groups I've been. How much FT do they have? Unknown to me and yes I realize that this will not be as bad the higher tier I go since most likekly they will have more FT.

Now, what is my point? This is exactly what should happen across the board. No matter what lvl, with comparable warrior to take charge the warrior should be the smarter choice. It is not so ATM because of the many issues you guys have discussed. So, when Bunnie says why would you let the warrior tank. Well sure why would you? This is a question that sony has to answer or make an answer happen. Bah I think I rambled.. sorry.

[Bunnie Burner]

This is the Outhouse ;)
let it ALL OUT!!!
Purge yourself of all that frusteration :D

[Valeris]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH !

*pants*

Ok, I'm good now :p

[Dobbo Baggins]

i grouped with a pally today 3 levels higher sir title. i let him tank. he did fine died on first pull and thats it. He did knew alot of stuff. he said verant added hate to stun (pure hate) to compensate for so many mobs being able to resist all the stuns 50+. now i don't know if this is correct but that might help. Then he said he felt sorry for warriors and we are getting jyped. he said that warriors are great tanks with some good utilities like shield and defensive/evasive and tank well when the group knows how to use them as tanks. em is still wandering what he means.

[Superchum]

" Hopefully SoE will give them a wake up call soon."

Heh. It's called the Lost DUNGEONS of Norrath.

Casters ... indoors ... without SoW or their beloved horsie, wondering what to do. They can't just gate to the nexus every couple of hours for C3. They can't just sit there on their horse and watch their XP bar move.

They gotta actually adventure.

It's coming.

Oh yes, it's coming.

:P

"he said that warriors are great tanks with some good utilities like shield and defensive/evasive and tank well when the group knows how to use them as tanks. em is still wandering what he means."

He means that warriors can be the most effective damage sponge in a group that actually takes the time to manage aggro, and keep it where it belongs.

Then you get those annoying groups. We all know them. Wait 20 minutes for two members to get there. Wait another 20 for one of them go back to PoK to get C3. Have everyone die on first pull because they weren't ready, or mistyped FM. Then wait another 25 minutes to finally get everyone there, buffed and prepped for a damn pull.

Then you have the slower slowing when the mob is 225 feet away from the tank.

You have the nuker aggroing the mob about 10 percent in because chain casting heavy nukes is something he always wanted to do. And of course, forget shielding this person as they've got to revert to KITE mode.

You have a cleric who for some reason STILL thinks this is Chardok and is trying to CH you at 2 bubs of life, even though the damn mob can ONE round you at that level of health because PoP mobs don't FREAKIN SCREW AROUND.

Your bard doesn't know he/she can mez or charm adds or mez or charm gaters. 2 paladins and a cleric let the damn mob gate for no particular reason whatsoever. Even though one of the paladins was chain stunning the mob early on to get aggro off of the wizard that was playing headless chicken.

The SK refuses to give the warrior the hate boosting spell, because he's an SK and is "in character" by being an evil prick about it.

The monk doesn't know to turn off auto attack to feign death properly and has never used the word TAG before in his life ... so he pulls about as good as a level 1 gnome mage dressed in bright red with a KICK me sign posted on his ass.

And the shaman absolutely refuses to offer any healing assistance when the tank gets down to 2 bubs but is waiting for the other five seconds of the CH to land.

Oh yeah ... I know you've all been in that group. Cause I certainly have!

:P

[Binnamar]

If there is a paladin grouped with me, I usually let them tank, unless my equip is far better then theirs. It lets me get some nice relaxing exp where I can surf the web or watch tv for an hour or 2.


But it's usually just me as a tank, and I tank :)

[Llauriel]

Hiya Daemon! ;) I found you!

Just wanted to say it sounded more like the chanter was a dork than the paladin. The chanter obviously did not know how to work with a warrior. And sounds to me that the paladin was wise and realised how much of a better tank you were than he.

I myself am usually quite willing to let a warrior tank in my place. First, I think paladins are more effective as paladins when they are not tanking. Gives us more time to heal, buff, etc. Second, I love letting someone else get beat on for awhile and taking it easy for a night.

[Darkoan]

Gunrack - the med issue is a non-issue when you start fighting alongside knights that have the INSTANT DAMN CAST HORSE. They pull the mob in (or someone else does) and wallah they are on the horse medding while they fight. Thanks for fixing that whole hybrid having to med annoyance Verant, no really thank you!

[Dobbo Baggins]

yeah we've all seen binnamar tank. i feel sorry for ench already.

[Gimmel]

You don't regen mana on a horse while meleeing or running.

[Binnamar]

Don't h8 dobbo. I'll come watch you tank sir!

[Mekil Jueaze]

The monk doesn't know to turn off auto attack to feign death properly and has never used the word TAG before in his life ... so he pulls about as good as a level 1 gnome mage dressed in bright red with a KICK me sign posted on his ass.


fookin beautiful lol


and yes...been in that group...if its 20 mins and I'm still waiting on people to come (non guildies that is...lot more patient with them) I tend to find another group....will get more exp sittin on my ass lfg for another 30 mins then I will with that group.....



is it just me, or has BoT completely gone KC.....

[Drunken Mick]

The further sad fact relating to that "group" is this. At least it's a group and GD I'm happy to even have them. Far better than sitting for a couple hours LFG in <insert zone>. So... instead of going where the sweet exp is... I find myself in PoV/PoS... instead of PoTac, BoT, CoD etc... /sigh. 5 more flags to full elemental GD... I want to exp in them bad boys!

[Thaak]

Originally posted by Superchum
hen you get those annoying groups. We all know them. Wait 20 minutes for two members to get there. Wait another 20 for one of them go back to PoK to get C3. Have everyone die on first pull because they weren't ready, or mistyped FM. Then wait another 25 minutes to finally get everyone there, buffed and prepped for a damn pull.

Then you have the slower slowing when the mob is 225 feet away from the tank.

You have the nuker aggroing the mob about 10 percent in because chain casting heavy nukes is something he always wanted to do. And of course, forget shielding this person as they've got to revert to KITE mode.

You have a cleric who for some reason STILL thinks this is Chardok and is trying to CH you at 2 bubs of life, even though the damn mob can ONE round you at that level of health because PoP mobs don't FREAKIN SCREW AROUND.

Your bard doesn't know he/she can mez or charm adds or mez or charm gaters. 2 paladins and a cleric let the damn mob gate for no particular reason whatsoever. Even though one of the paladins was chain stunning the mob early on to get aggro off of the wizard that was playing headless chicken.

The SK refuses to give the warrior the hate boosting spell, because he's an SK and is "in character" by being an evil prick about it.

The monk doesn't know to turn off auto attack to feign death properly and has never used the word TAG before in his life ... so he pulls about as good as a level 1 gnome mage dressed in bright red with a KICK me sign posted on his ass.

And the shaman absolutely refuses to offer any healing assistance when the tank gets down to 2 bubs but is waiting for the other five seconds of the CH to land.

Oh yeah ... I know you've all been in that group. Cause I certainly have!

:P


That is all I've had in exp groups for the past few weeks.

I've lost freakin' 10% exp entirely to 96% rezzes.


Grrrr. Pick up groups can go to hell.


Grrrarr~~

[Rumblingdeth]

One day, maybe soon (laf, sure) you people will get it. WHY THE HELL SHOULD CASTERS CONTROL AGGRO AND GIVE UP EASY PLAY?! Human nature is to take the easy road, any of you take ANY psycology classes at all? The Paladin as a tank is preferred so casters can go on auto-pilot and not have to sweat bullets all night not to take aggro. Get a clue.

[Bunnie Burner]

You dont need to take any psycology classes...

Everything... EVERY SINGLE thing will always take the easier route.

going from apples falling from a tree, humans, passing by bacteria.


You give two choices, and one is easier then the other. Then you have to be pretty fucked up retarded to think the two choices have the same chances of being taken.

Ya... SoE is pretty fucked up retarded...

[Kiya]

The most fun I have is when things get rough. I *LIKE* pushing my limits, I *LIKE* sweating bullets on incoming. It is a pity that many, many others don't that enjoy as much as I do. Nothing is more boring to me than sitting in a safe spot chain pulling for hours on end... I DON'T want to group with people who want to go on "auto pilot". That kind of player is usually a whiney ass or gets me killed via stupidity, usually both.

I've been losing the enjoyment I once had. It takes extreme will power to even turn on the damned LFG tag. Charm soloing on my 59 druid is also quickly losing its appeal. I also refuse to be the healer in that group that sits in one place and chain pulls for hours on end. Botting for exp is ok, but it gets so boring and lonesome. My beastlord, 31, is ok, but I'd rather be doing higher level characters, and not soloing/botting. (However, boxing a BL and chanter at the same time has been slightly... interesting.)

[Smakz]

the game started its downward spiral of Decay when Kunark hit the shelves. It gave people a ton of outdoor open air unrestricted zones to EXP in with a lot of room to run if shit got icky.

With the addition of Velious, it somewhat fixed itself, more dungeons, all the good EXP places in Vel were indoors, and people started frequenting the unused Kunark dungeons, because they realized, wow, indoor dungeons have EXP mods. So sebilis and chardok became pick up zones.

Then Luclin came out, Maidens Eye, the new DL. wow, its fun to make twinks, and the best way to level, the easiest route, was CB -> LoIO -> OT -> DL -> ME ... people again lost even more of the indoor dungeon crawl, stick close together, minimize and maximize efficiency.

Then PoP ... where every zone is outdoor, and the ones that arnt, well, they still have Graveyards ... Dying was made trivial, no more CRs, your corpses magically poofed to a safe location where you could easily walk to nakid with no buffs, without fear of getting wiped clean again.

im really hoping and praying LDoN brings back the indoor game ... you can always tell the people that have been there, the people who have been around since the beginning, and can remember LFG in places like Unrest, Guk, Mistmoore, Befallen, you know, the places where you learn basic skills, the places where you needed to know your shit to live.

Mudflation and easy EXP have done nothing but breed a generation of lazy players, too scared and too pampered to risk a little bit for some fun.

I have a group of friends i play with, outside my guild, they are a little lower than me, dont raid, small family guild type, so they welcome me with open arms when my VT gear toting butt comes by and wants to screw around .... but theres a drawback .... they hate risk. Took em to CT the other day ... tried to work back to 4c, died a few times relearning the zone, as i havent been there in months, hour later, i was sitting in PoV LFG, cause they died twice, and that was more than they could handle. I notice this alot lately, you try to do something fun with your group, and they whine and moan and complain when stuff doesnt go perfect.

well, im fed up with it ... damnit, i want my dungeons, where people payed attention to what they were doing, when having a warrior as a tank meant you were more efficient, you conserved mana, not because you didnt have the massive aggro of knights, but because it wasnt needed, the wizard wasnt chaining strike of solusek, because he needed to conserve mana, spread his damage out equally all night long ... the cleric was happy, because you have more HP than a knight of equal level (and better mitigation) and made his heals more efficient, where the shaman wasnt affraid to take a hit or 2 (yes, they can still take a beating, they just choose not to, because its outside the normal pipeline PL stream of things). Dungeons are where we shine, where we were born to live, and i want them back. I dont want to sit on a hill pulling single mob after single mob all night long in a boring lazy relaxed setting because some chanter is too stupid to mez more than one mob.

Thats the other thing that pisses me off ... chanters these days ... the new ones, the ones who have never stepped foot inside for EXP .... you pull more than 2 mobs, and they shit themselves, and run around screaming wildly flailing their arms over their head like some kind of super death mutant alien was pointing a lazer at them. Instead of the trademark chanter of the Sebilis era, you know, the guy that says pull a train, i can handle it ... so you bring 6 mobs, and BAM they are locked down quicker than a greased booger through a turbo vac, thats what i miss, good players, players with skill.

when sitting in a group in Velks and you guys decide, hey, lets hit DN, cause i havent been there ... even though none of you has ever been across Sirens, you say what the hell, why not, and spend the next 6 hours killing spiders and rats, crawling through tunnels, and getting the shit scared out of you buy 10 million beetles spawning at your feet .... thats where the fun was, sponanuity, not this mindless grinding to move a little yellow bar, which is all EQ has been degenerated into.

I want my fun and excitement back, the adrenaline rush i got when 6 uglies came around the corner out of nowhere and tried to eat the chanter ... I miss the times when you finish a fight and everyone is OOM, cause it was an intense battle, and you barely live, but you live, because you had the skills to pull it together, instead i get to stand in one spot and plink arrows at a single mob the ranger brings back for me to beat on .... and i get yelled at because people dont know how to play anymore ...

god i miss the old days, even though, i was a caster back then.

[Khumak]

This is actually a pretty common occurance. It's not even just limited to warriors vs knights. I have 8750 hps buffed and am using a Blade of Carnage and a Blackout as my aggro combo. The last time I grouped in Valor I tanked for about a half hour and the group switched to letting the beatlord tank. He had almost 3000 hps less than I do and is not even a "tank" class and yet due to aggro control I become an 8k hp rogue without backstab.

Before the beastlord started tanking we had 4 or 5 caster deaths. For the 6 hours the beastlord tanked we had zero deaths. We also never ran out of mana so while I'm sure it took more healing to keep the beastlord alive than it would have for me, nobody cares because the cleric never ran out of mana and the DPS casters could dump mana as fast as they got it without ever drawing aggro.

I've also had groups where the ranger takes over tanking for the same reason. My aggro combo isn't the best, but it's far superior to what most warriors are using. I shudder to think about the situation the casual 65 warrior with a Windblade is in at this point in the game. A knight in the same situation would have the same crappy DPS but would still have 100% aggro lock whenever they wanted it.

[Boofus]

I have BoC, & Primal offhand and closing in on 8k hp's. And yup guys what Khumak says is absolutely true.

I find myself more and more a third wheel in exp groups. I'm usually not suprised anymore when someone in the group says, "Better let the Pal tank, it's easier on the slower =p."

So it did not even matter what I was wielding, what gear I had on, no questions about how many hit points I had, simply put - the knight was tanking, thats it end of story.

EB did not matter, /shield did not matter, hp/Ac did not matter. All I was, was an exp leeching warrior.

Of course I only got into that particular pick up group because I was 2 boxing a cleric..

nuff said.

[Dwanor]

Sounds like you grouped with a paladin who didn't know his shit and a chanter who can't adjust.

Paladin stuns on incoming, warrior taunts mob off paladin and locks aggro. Leapfrog aggo and all of a sudden the warrior has aggro lock and is saving mana for everyone. Paladin supernal cleanses himself if he took a hit or two and then joins the fight.

Warriors are hands down better at absorbing damage (similarly equiped/lvl etc) than knights. Knights are better at aggro currently. So put the 2 together.

In Tower of SolRo or elementals I can use a resisted stun to get aggro when the mob hits casting range. It heads right for me as the debuffs hits. Land a high lvl stun to keep it away from the slower. Then if I don't taunt a good warrior can get it off me before its hit me more than 3x. Aggro to warrior and fast aggro. Group happy, no one uses much mana and chain pulling commenses.

Can I group without warriors? Sure but I'm lazy too. I'd rather have a damage sponge in the group and use all my skills to help the entire group succeed instead of worrying about positioning and stuff. I also know that my 7250hp is alot scarier when tanking some big mobs than a warrior with 8500+ and possibly defensive up. Cleric saves mana (or druid) and no one worries when the warrior gets to 2 bubs of health like they do with me.

Until the mythical changes to warrior aggro actually hit the game its time to get creative.

[Rumblingdeth]

One day, maybe soon (laf, sure) you people will get it. WHY THE HELL SHOULD CASTERS CONTROL AGGRO AND GIVE UP EASY PLAY?! Human nature is to take the easy road, any of you take ANY psycology classes at all? The Paladin as a tank is preferred so casters can go on auto-pilot and not have to sweat bullets all night not to take aggro. Get a clue.

[NinjaBurger]

Warriors are hands down better at absorbing damage (similarly equiped/lvl etc)

Not much longer. Due to crap itemization. Thanks SOE!

The last time I grouped in Valor I tanked for about a half hour and the group switched to letting the beatlord tank. He had almost 3000 hps less than I do and is not even a "tank" class and yet due to aggro control I become an 8k hp rogue without backstab.

Ok when a FUCKING BEASTLORD can hold aggro better than a warrior, something HAS to be done. Honestly, Jesus Christ.

[Gimmel]

You think you should be able to hold aggro better than a class with dots and slows?

[Valeris]

Knights do fairly well... :)