Do you agree...(Damage Absorption)

[Venge]

...with the following Damage Absorption abilities comparsion:

Warrior
Form a Line: 25% Group Mit, 8s
Wardar's Bulwark: 20% Solo Mit, 1m
Shield Wall: 80% Solo Block, 15s

*Note* Mitigation can be capped and be rendered useless. SW only blocks melee.

Paladin
Final Stand: Solo Invulnerability, 15s
Shield of Gloriann: Group Invulnerability, 4s
Blessinig of Gloriann's Protection: AC Buff, 5m (Correct)?

*Note* Invulnenrabilies cost VP. Invulnerabilty = No damage.

Dread Knight:
Dark Bastion III: 150 (750) AC Solo, 5m
Shield of Fear III: 3% (15%) Block Solo, 3m
Dark Ward III: 25% Rune Solo, 6 hit/60s

*Note* Runes are not capped along with mitigation.

Compare and contrast. If info is incorrect then say so. I did not include buffs that can be casted outside and/or any healing.

[Phinius]

Cooldowns would help in the comparison, I'm not aware of the DK or PALs cooldowns, so I will try and compare without factoring them in.


Warrior
Form a Line: 25% Group Mit, 8s
Wardar's Bulwark: 20% Solo Mit, 1m
Shield Wall: 80% Solo Block, 15s

Not sure if anyone has actually tested that Form a line or WB is actually useless
after your 65%, I recently tested War Bracer of Eternity, and it does in fact mitigate past 65%.

If these abilities do go over the cap, I'd say they are rather useful, as we would be able to mitigate more than any tank for 1m, or 8s. If not, then pretty useless.

That said, Form a Line is an 8s mitigation buff. That's kind of weak, something I'd expect on a clicky. The group factor is mostly null, however I can see both of our mit abilities being used on raids for the MT or OT groups, 2-3 wars could keep raise defenses up on someone for a good portion of a minute.

Shield wall rules. Tank switching anyone? You will take very little damage with this on AND you can still swing your sword to keep that raid mob on you. Forgive me for forgetting what this ability for warriors was called in EQ, but imo this is almost better considering the low recast. Only upside to the EQ version was, they wouldn't get hit at all, we'll still take a hit or two during 15secs, but likely not in a row.


Paladin
Final Stand: Solo Invulnerability, 15s
Shield of Gloriann: Group Invulnerability, 4s
Blessinig of Gloriann's Protection: AC Buff, 5m (Correct)?


Yay, we can still have our paladins DA pull! But, um, seriously, I don't see this being very useful while tanking. You get to 1% life, say oh shit and DA. Well guess what, you are not getting a heal when you pop it off before that mob hits you again.

DA being used as a tank switch tool may not be too wise either. While DA you risk losing aggro, not to mention when you take it off, your healers better be ready.

Utility wise, yes very powerful. DA pulling, shielding groups from deadly AEs, protecting healers, etc. Tank wise, worthless.

An AC buff is ok, but imo mitigation buffs are far better. (AC mit caps at 45% correct?)

Dread Knight:
Dark Bastion III: 150 (750) AC Solo, 5m
Shield of Fear III: 3% (15%) Block Solo, 3m
Dark Ward III: 25% Rune Solo, 6 hit/60s

Overall, probably the most powerful defensive abilities for straight tanking. 25% rune never gets old. However, that rune is likely to be their best bet for tank switches, and that may not be enough.

Shield of fear is also very nice. Not sure if there is a block% cap, but if there is, DKs will be the first to reach it.

AC buff, always welcome, makes the DKs list well rounded, buffing everything. Evasion, rune, mitigation.



Overall here is how I see it:

Warriors will be kings of tank switches with only a 15min reuse on Shield wall. They have tools for mitigation, which may or may not exceed the cap. However, when mitigation gets a rework, I think these abilities will be much, much better looking to us.

Paladins seem to be more like protectors and DA pullers than tanks, they get no real boost to mitigation or evasion other than an AC buff, which could be deemed useless at an 45% mit from AC cap. The paladin could use DA as a tank switch tool, but risks loosing aggro while DA, also you would need solid communication with your healers as to when your DA is off.

Dread Knights have it all, except a tank switch tool. They buff their evasion through shield block, their mitigation with a self rune, which is far superior to mitigation, and they have a substantial AC buff to boost their mitigation. Overall very potent tanks, they just lack a solid tank switch tool.

Unless mitigation is looked at, I see DKs as the front runners atm. Ideal would probably be Paladin run the mob DA to the DK MT with a War standing by for tank switch if he happens to die. But, hey, that's my opinion. ;)

[Tuddar Raddut]

...with the following Damage Absorption abilities comparsion:

Warrior
Form a Line: 25% Group Mit, 8s
Wardar's Bulwark: 20% Solo Mit, 1m
Shield Wall: 80% Solo Block, 15s

*Note* Mitigation can be capped and be rendered useless. SW only blocks melee.

Paladin
Final Stand: Solo Invulnerability, 15s
Shield of Gloriann: Group Invulnerability, 4s
Blessinig of Gloriann's Protection: AC Buff, 5m (Correct)?

*Note* Invulnenrabilies cost VP. Invulnerabilty = No damage.

Dread Knight:
Dark Bastion III: 150 (750) AC Solo, 5m
Shield of Fear III: 3% (15%) Block Solo, 3m
Dark Ward III: 25% Rune Solo, 6 hit/60s, 1m recast
Symbol of Despair V: Absorbs 100 damage every 5 seconds
Aphotic Shield: 100% Solo block, 10s

*Note* Runes are not capped along with mitigation.

Compare and contrast. If info is incorrect then say so. I did not include buffs that can be casted outside and/or any healing.

It's fairly obvious that Paladins fare worst when it comes to damage absorption. That's one of the reasons for their asking for +avoidance. Their stance has no block % on it, and no way of increasing their block % that I am aware of other than increasing strength. VP's are hard to come by, and the skills often have limitations on top of it as far as recast times and such.

If capped on mitigation, Warriors fare about as badly as Paladins. If well under cap, Warriors probably fare the best of all tanks for one minute, after that they have no significant advantage. Shield Wall can get a Warrior through a tough spot. Not as good as Paladin invulnerabilities, but no significant cost either.

Lastly, I've added in line Symbol of Despair for DK's, which mitigates 100 damage every 5 seconds. Not huge, but again Runes aren't limited by the mitigation cap. I've also noted Dark Wards recast of 1 minute, because that is significant. Also, Dark Ward absorbs 25% of *any damage*, melee or magic.

DB is worthless if at cap. However, once SoF is up the block difference between Warriors/Paladins once a DK hits even DC3 becomes substantial. At DC5, the difference is pretty large. 10% more than Warrior and 15% more than Paladin. Dark Ward every minute for 25% reduction. And for a guaranteed 6 hits from the mob, melee or magic, that can be huge. In my eyes, Dark Ward is actually superior to WB. Not affected by mitigation cap, works on all damage, available every minute, %5 more damage mitigation. WB is more effective the faster the mob attacks, while Dark Ward is more effective against slow, heavy hitters. Still, overall, I'd have to give the nod to Dark Ward vs. WB in it's current state. Although Symbol of Despair doesn't take a huge amount of damage off, it's just another little added bit on top that isn't subject to any caps.

Overall, the DK has the best damage absorption once DC/DB/SoF is up and maxxed. Period. It takes time to get that up, however, so there is a period of time the DK's damage absorption is worse.

[Tuddar Raddut]

Dread Knights have it all, except a tank switch tool. They buff their evasion through shield block, their mitigation with a self rune, which is far superior to mitigation, and they have a substantial AC buff to boost their mitigation. Overall very potent tanks, they just lack a solid tank switch tool.


Actually, they do. It's call Aphotic Shield, get it at Lvl42. Blocks 100% incoming damage for 10 seconds.

[Phinius]

Actually, they do. It's call Aphotic Shield, get it at Lvl42. Blocks 100% incoming damage for 10 seconds.

Ah, ok. I'm not aware of many PAL / DK abilities, was only going by what venge had listed. In that case, DKs win. ;)

[Karnos]

Actually, they do. It's call Aphotic Shield, get it at Lvl42. Blocks 100% incoming damage for 10 seconds.
I was about to post that myself. It has a 15 min reuse time (was reduced to that, from 30 min, very recently.)

In my view, dread knights are completely out of whack compared to paladins and warriors. They are leagues ahead of the other two classes in terms of survivability--and we aren't even taking their AE lifetaps into consideration here.

o They have 10% higher block than warriors, 15% higher than paladins. Massive advantage.

o They have 5% higher mitigation than warriors. That is actually more than what Warder's Bulwark affords if you average its mitigation bonus out over time--but of course, 5% permanent mitigation is decidedly preferable to 20% mitigation merely 20% of the time. Major advantage to dread knights right there again.

o They have runes, which stack with everything, while our mitigation abilities easily reach the cap and thus accomplish nothing whatsoever. Significant advantage, once more.

o Their abilities are self-only while paladins and warriors both have one group ability instead of a self-only ability, meaning dread knights make even better choices for the MT role with warriors and/or paladins cast as support tanks buffing the dread knight MT.


Paladins have a survivability edge vs warriors; not a completely overpowering one, but it is there:

o Their self-only invulnerability protects against all forms of damage. Ours works only vs physical attacks, and even then, I am assuming, only against attacks which are able to be blocked in the first place.

o Their group invulnerability only lasts half the time of our group mitigation buff, but complete invulnerability vs all types of damage is more than twice as good as merely 25% mitigation (which can easily be capped, mind you) vs only physical attacks.

o Their self-only mitigation attack gives them permanent AC, and thus mitigation, while Warder's Bulwark can be kept in effect at most 20% of the time, and we all know that permanent mitigation is better than the short(ish)-term equivalent. Still, Warder's Bulwark packs a fair deal more oomph than the paladin buff, so the two are probably reasonably balanced.

[Kryptik]

With comparable gear the DK wins hands down. I seen this first hand as we have 3 tanks (2 wars and a DK)

Admittedly a DK starts behind at the start of the fight but it doesnt take long. Overall the DK does much better than the warrior

All of our healers will vouch for this. They have to spam healing alot more when a warrior is tanking as opposed to a DK

[Venge]

This is where numbers and actual player ability starts clashing...and I'll bring this up: We have to give tanks the same amount of hate and mitigation. The rest is up in the air.

But I can take it most don't agree with it, pretty obvious. I mean, sure we can lock agro down but that's all we have really floating for us. Now it doesn't look as special because any DK/Pal that knows how to play his cards can lock agro down just as well. So again you meet at even field. Again I'll use this statement:
Dread Knight - Self-only Tank
Paladin - Group Tank
Warrior - Inbetween Tank

In terms of survivalability, its either they have too much or we have too little. IMO, they have too much. I do not agree that tanks in general should have so much self-support. We are tanks of all things, we are supposed to depend on the group to bring us up not just ourselfs. Also consider I didn't add in their heals. I know some may say warriors are the "offensive tank", but that concept is left in our offensive stance.

So lets be honest here (for those Pals/DKs reading), there is something very off here. DPS should not be our "sweet spot" for tanking, because its not there and it won't matter anyways. Hate is comparable, any tank can get it and hold it. Survivability is not comparable, warriors can barely breach it. We are hitting a serious nerf/buff session, so I'll be the first it. if you want to talk solo, yeah warrior have the higher dps, but still the weaker solo.

Can go about this all day.

[Tudana]

Why can`t the Warrior have more DPS and Mitigation then the other 2 tanks?

Seriously, for survivability, that is the only thing we have - Warrior d not have healing taps, or heals as the other 2 tanks. Why can the warriors archtype nitch be the higher Mitigation and DPS?
how would that out balance the 3 tanks?

[Tuddar Raddut]

Why can`t the Warrior have more DPS and Mitigation then the other 2 tanks?

Seriously, for survivability, that is the only thing we have - Warrior d not have healing taps, or heals as the other 2 tanks. Why can the warriors archtype nitch be the higher Mitigation and DPS?
how would that out balance the 3 tanks?

Well, because in theory all the tanks are supposed to tank roughly the same. Which means having significantly higher mitigation is out. We already have higher DPS, just have to be in Offensive stance. Higher DPS in Defensive stance would just result in a corresponding nerf/cut of our aggro tools to compensate.

[Tudana]

Well, because in theory all the tanks are supposed to tank roughly the same. Which means having significantly higher mitigation is out. We already have higher DPS, just have to be in Offensive stance. Higher DPS in Defensive stance would just result in a corresponding nerf/cut of our aggro tools to compensate.

What separates us in equality then from the Paladin and Drk is the fact they can self heal. I do not want any healing abilities or lift tap abailities added to the warrior, but I do want to have my nature of survival to be looked at. A healer should not have to spam heals to keep me alive when the paladin and drk require very little.

A warrior is in fact the raw nature of a tank, the physical basics of the other 2. So why cant the playing field be evened up? nerf/cut be-damned, this should have been set up back in beta.

Paladin survive with spells of healage/buffage/mitigation (solo/group)
Dreadknights survive with life taps/mitigation/debuffs (solo/group)
Warriors survive with mitigation alone/hate/dps (?)

Cant wait to see what Inquisitors are going to have...

[Euth]

This is where numbers and actual player ability starts clashing...and I'll bring this up: We have to give tanks the same amount of hate and mitigation. The rest is up in the air.

But I can take it most don't agree with it, pretty obvious. I mean, sure we can lock agro down but that's all we have really floating for us. Now it doesn't look as special because any DK/Pal that knows how to play his cards can lock agro down just as well. So again you meet at even field. Again I'll use this statement:
Dread Knight - Self-only Tank
Paladin - Group Tank
Warrior - Inbetween Tank

In terms of survivalability, its either they have too much or we have too little. IMO, they have too much. I do not agree that tanks in general should have so much self-support. We are tanks of all things, we are supposed to depend on the group to bring us up not just ourselfs. Also consider I didn't add in their heals. I know some may say warriors are the "offensive tank", but that concept is left in our offensive stance.

So lets be honest here (for those Pals/DKs reading), there is something very off here. DPS should not be our "sweet spot" for tanking, because its not there and it won't matter anyways. Hate is comparable, any tank can get it and hold it. Survivability is not comparable, warriors can barely breach it. We are hitting a serious nerf/buff session, so I'll be the first it. if you want to talk solo, yeah warrior have the higher dps, but still the weaker solo.

Can go about this all day.

I couldn't have said this better myself .. great post Venge!

[Venge]

Here's some candy to snack on while i compile my facts to see if we can get some work in. if something is wrong then say so.

http://www.vgtrinity.net/site/DamageAbsorption.xls

[Phinius]

Yeah something is wrong, that list makes warriors look gimped! :p

[Tudana]

Warrior|Adamant Foeman III |Solo |1 hit |Instant| Increase Block by 80%|Decreases hate

Paladin|Devout Foeman III |Solo |1 hit |Instant |Increase Block by 100%|Decrease hate

Dread Knight |Bleak Foeman IV |Solo |1 hit |Instant |Increases Block by 160% |Does not lower hate


someone is Daddy`s favorite...:p

[Venge]

Confirmed all Foemans are getting changed to match the DK's....was "supposed" to be like that -_-

[Venge]

Also note I didn't post heals or anything of health regeneration capacity.

[Tudana]

Confirmed all Foemans are getting changed to match the DK's....was "supposed" to be like that -_-

you Slackor! that should have been caught months ago! :eek:

[Venge]

I'm only a wee warrior :eek:

[Tuddar Raddut]

What separates us in equality then from the Paladin and Drk is the fact they can self heal. I do not want any healing abilities or lift tap abailities added to the warrior, but I do want to have my nature of survival to be looked at. A healer should not have to spam heals to keep me alive when the paladin and drk require very little.

A warrior is in fact the raw nature of a tank, the physical basics of the other 2. So why cant the playing field be evened up? nerf/cut be-damned, this should have been set up back in beta.

Paladin survive with spells of healage/buffage/mitigation (solo/group)
Dreadknights survive with life taps/mitigation/debuffs (solo/group)
Warriors survive with mitigation alone/hate/dps (?)

Cant wait to see what Inquisitors are going to have...

In groups, Paladins and DK's don't use their heals/lifetaps on themselves. It's just not a smart thing to do overall. That energy, endurance, and time is better used for keeping aggro. Paladin heals are a PITA to get off when you are tanking, that 2.5 second cast ends up being 6 seconds with a mob pounding on you, if you get it off at all. If you use LoH on yourself, it costs you VP points. All the while you aren't generating aggro. DK lifetaps are the same. SS/Harrow turns the mob (bad), the AE lifetap produces no aggro and consumes 50 endurance, and Cull has a cast time and competes with energy need for Torture (hate dot). So lifetaps aren't very viable in groups either.

Paladins require just as much healing as we do in groups. DK's require more at the beginning of a fight, but less later on. It really depends on the fight whether DK's take more or less damage. Only if the fight lasts long enough to get to DC3 or better will the DK actually start taking noticeably less damage. Changes are in motion, if not already in production, to lessen the amount of time it takes a DK to build DC. DC itself it also broken, it would take a long post to explain why. Suffice it to say that the problems with DC cause them to take more damage then they should.

However, heals/lifetaps are quite useful when soloing or small groups.

I've suggested several abilities in the past that could provide some additional survivability while at the same time not impacting group play, that would have some comparability to heals/lifetaps. Not actual heals, but just reducing damage intake. They would never be as efficient as heals, but we just need something "good enough" that when combined with higher DPS, gets the job done.

Look at it like this. Every 12-15 seconds, I can heal/lifetap on my DK or Paladin and get back 10-20% health. Every 12-15 seconds I can ? on my Warrior.

The problem with the Warrior is there is no ability to fill in the question mark right now.

[Tuddar Raddut]

you Slackor! that should have been caught months ago! :eek:

Actually, I did point that out months ago. Venge said at the time it was the DK Foeman that was wrong, not the Paladin/Warriors. :D

[Tudana]

In groups, Paladins and DK's don't use their heals/lifetaps on themselves. It's just not a smart thing to do overall. That energy, endurance, and time is better used for keeping aggro. Paladin heals are a PITA to get off when you are tanking, that 2.5 second cast ends up being 6 seconds with a mob pounding on you, if you get it off at all. If you use LoH on yourself, it costs you VP points. All the while you aren't generating aggro. DK lifetaps are the same. SS/Harrow turns the mob (bad), the AE lifetap produces no aggro and consumes 50 endurance, and Cull has a cast time and competes with energy need for Torture (hate dot). So lifetaps aren't very viable in groups either.

Paladins require just as much healing as we do in groups. DK's require more at the beginning of a fight, but less later on. It really depends on the fight whether DK's take more or less damage. Only if the fight lasts long enough to get to DC3 or better will the DK actually start taking noticeably less damage. Changes are in motion, if not already in production, to lessen the amount of time it takes a DK to build DC. DC itself it also broken, it would take a long post to explain why. Suffice it to say that the problems with DC cause them to take more damage then they should.

However, heals/lifetaps are quite useful when soloing or small groups.

I've suggested several abilities in the past that could provide some additional survivability while at the same time not impacting group play, that would have some comparability to heals/lifetaps. Not actual heals, but just reducing damage intake. They would never be as efficient as heals, but we just need something "good enough" that when combined with higher DPS, gets the job done.

Look at it like this. Every 12-15 seconds, I can heal/lifetap on my DK or Paladin and get back 10-20% health. Every 12-15 seconds I can ? on my Warrior.

The problem with the Warrior is there is no ability to fill in the question mark right now.

OK, on this line of thinking, paladins not healing themselves or drk not tapping life in a group...I would have to ask our drk about this, and watch a bit closer, but I am sure they are using some form of life tap/dots to regain HP during dungeons crawls.

for instance and cirumstance, while grouped with a drk, our healer dies, the Drk has always taken the agro due to their servivability without heals..when I take the agro (without a healer) i die..period. So why would they not do the same when a healer is alive and well?...I would.
(In the case of this DRK gear verses mine, I am in 1/2 swamp ick and 1/2 thestran crafted superior/flawless...the Drk is in Crafted.)

I have not had the pleasure of grouping with a paladin yet in a dungeon, but I will also watch for the same - to see/appears their serviability while tanking verses mine works better..with healer/without healer.

I would also like to help find us an ability for that "?"...i`m leaning toward a mitigation edge to balance this. which I know has been said..."nope, cant happen"...But I would like to know what else we have to work with. Warriors do not use spells or give buffs..we rely on natural abilities..command influances to groups and allies, which should come natural for us to have a strong will and take damage better.

Along with this, if we get any more DPS abilities, they should change our class name to Bezerker!

[Venge]

That's what Talisker told me...it is supposed to lower hate.
Yet today Avair told me its NOT supposed to lower hate.
I'm a confused one :(

[Tuddar Raddut]

OK, on this line of thinking, paladins not healing themselves or drk not tapping life in a group...I would have to ask our drk about this, and watch a bit closer, but I am sure they are using some form of life tap/dots to regain HP during dungeons crawls.

for instance and cirumstance, while grouped with a drk, our healer dies, the Drk has always taken the agro due to their servivability without heals..when I take the agro (without a healer) i die..period. So why would they not do the same when a healer is alive and well?...I would.
(In the case of this DRK gear verses mine, I am in 1/2 swamp ick and 1/2 thestran crafted superior/flawless...the Drk is in Crafted.)

I have not had the pleasure of grouping with a paladin yet in a dungeon, but I will also watch for the same - to see/appears their serviability while tanking verses mine works better..with healer/without healer.

I would also like to help find us an ability for that "?"...i`m leaning toward a mitigation edge to balance this. which I know has been said..."nope, cant happen"...But I would like to know what else we have to work with. Warriors do not use spells or give buffs..we rely on natural abilities..command influances to groups and allies, which should come natural for us to have a strong will and take damage better.

Along with this, if we get any more DPS abilities, they should change our class name to Bezerker!

Well, if your healer dies, I'd say it's perfectly logical for the DK to grab aggro. :D

As far as lifetapping in group, if the healer is having problems keeping up, I'll help out by tapping. But that runs a higher risk of losing aggro, and DK's have poor aggro control tools for getting back aggro once lost. So my rule of thumb is I avoid taps if the healer is doing their job and I instead use that endurance/energy for generating aggro/DPS, not heals. Lifetaps generate no aggro, so each time you use a lifetap is a little less aggro you could have generated.

[Tanahlai]

Here's some candy to snack on while i compile my facts to see if we can get some work in. if something is wrong then say so.

http://www.vgtrinity.net/site/DamageAbsorption.xls

You forgot sentinel's blessing. Sentinel's Blessing V provides 240 AC (5 mins, self-only). Additionally, Blessing of Gloriann's Protection is no longer a maintained ability, it's a one hour buff.

Also while it won't matter in raid-buffed situations, paladins have SIGNIFICANT strength buffs, that allow them to cap out their block benefit from strength far easier than either dreads or warriors can do. So if you want to list that, Champion's Might VI adds 65 str (5 mins, self only), and Vothdar's Mighty Strike V adds 65 str (5 mins, group).

Blessing of Vothar V also adds 32 str, but it doesn't stack with Blessing of Gloriann's Protection, so it pretty much goes unused.

Vothdar's Mighty Strike is 30 sec cooldown. Sentinel's blessing, champion's might, and blessing of vothdar are instant refresh.


Also, as a final interesting note, since the "support tank" thing always seems to come up...dread knights are waaaaaay at the top with a paladin supporting them, with Cry of Prowess, which (I believe...someone correct me if I'm wrong) is a 1 minute cooldown, group-wide war cry that puts everyone at their maximum form level (dread night DC, rogue stalking, ranger combat forms, bard dances, blood union, etc). Dreads can do this themselves to a degree, but on MUCH longer cooldowns.

[Kryptik]

if we cant get a mitigation buff, how about going down the +block or +avoidance option. but make sure its not on a stupidly long recast so it can be used at least once or twice every fight

for example:
+20% block (this would be subject to getting something not too OP or too weak)
15 sec duration
60 sec recast

That way we will take less damage overall in a fight. we could then block the damage that the other tanks would usually replenish thru heals/lifetaps

[Tuddar Raddut]

Here's some candy to snack on while i compile my facts to see if we can get some work in. if something is wrong then say so.

http://www.vgtrinity.net/site/DamageAbsorption.xls

Dark Bastion increases AC 183 per level of DC.

[dajag]

Yeah lol (class folks Sony all play DK's)

Thats a nice Excel chart -- add heals and life taps because they really need to be there.

[dajag]

When I made my warrior back in beta I did so because i wanted to be a damage dealing mad man a dual wielding Conan.

Well by lvl 30 and a few nerfs I realized the Warrior class does not do more damage then it takes and it has no tools to make up for this.

we can't solo, we can't tank in offensive stance at lvl 50 and we do crud for damage in defensive stance.

[Venge]

No dev plays a warrior, so you see how hard it is to get points across unless i have a community that can help say yay or nay.

[Sunrider]

No dev plays a warrior, so you see how hard it is to get points across unless i have a community that can help say yay or nay.



OMFG...i'am shocked by that ^^^^^. Venge i'am grateful that you are our lead class, shame that you are not a dev :P

Seriously wtf...no wonder why the Warrior class is so neglected when not even one single dev plays the Warrior. Sony should have it that every class must have a Dev class player, they should be ashamed of themselves. How can they call themselves games developers if they don't friggin play that class?

[Tuddar Raddut]

No dev plays a warrior, so you see how hard it is to get points across unless i have a community that can help say yay or nay.

Concepts and explanations can be difficult to grasp without a lot of first hand experience and knowledge. If the person(s) responsible for programming the Warrior class does not have a lot of personal experience actually playing the class, then it can be difficult for them to empathize or understand some of the ideas/difficulties you are trying to convey.

As a programmer, I know this firsthand. If I actually use the software I write on a daily basis, when someone comes to me about a problem with the program I can more easily grasp what they describing, whether it be a basic problem or something esoteric that only an experienced user would understand. We refer to this as eating your own dog food. If I am asked to work on a problem for a program I have little experience with and don't personally use and have only a passing familiarity with, it can take me some time to comprehend the nuances of the issue and even then I may not be able to grasp how the issue impacts other areas. My solution for the problem will often be less than optimal comparatively to a solution where I had more firsthand experience with both the use and the code

It's unfortunate for the Warrior community that there isn't a dev that heavily plays the Warrior class, because that makes our job more difficult and makes it harder for them to understand issues and their related impacts.

[Phinius]

Ouch, no wonder we are falling behind.

[Romero]

Ouch, no wonder we are falling behind.

Falling? Hehe we hit the bottom of the pit a loooong time ago.

[Phinius]

:(

[Kryptik]

No dev plays a warrior

This is a disgrace and explains a hell of a lot!

[Venge]

The point of the thread was to let (or remind for some) that we should have options, possibilitites, and of course the most hated word in vanguard, potential!

We do not have that. We have no capability to reach the survival ranks of the pal or dk. Not even on a good day. However they can reach our hate/agro potentials.

That is not balanced. We have to be given the option to survive wether it be innate more mitigation/hp/block or other means to negating/avoiding damage all together. Currently we do not have that option. That is the problem. I'm hot on this because yes, I am in raid testing, its coming to the light first hand with numbers of people as my witness.

[Tudana]

Falling? Hehe we hit the bottom of the pit a loooong time ago.

I dont think we have hit the bottom. i really enjoy my warrior and I can do a fine job as it is set up now. I have to be more tolerant that is for sure, on things ranging from agro managment or lack there of from others and low survivablity while trying to solo/group tank when shit hits the fan. I have not raid tested but I know Venge is so have to go with his calls on that.

We just need to stay focused on designing this warrior to fit the VG tank balance (because we have no dev that plays), bring things to the devs and show with un-refutable evidence and constructable feedback things need to be looked at.
With Venge as a rep for us and his contacts and determination we could do it.

[Kryptik]

my problem is that the warrior is not completely gimped. as it stands i can do my job, however the other 2 do it better... it gets tiring being the endless butt of ppl's jokes. everyone in VG jokes about warriors being useless

everyone hates the old "N" word so they should just hurry up and bring us up to par with the other 2 in terms of survivability and damage absorbtion

[Venge]

my problem is that the warrior is not completely gimped. as it stands i can do my job, however the other 2 do it better... it gets tiring being the endless butt of ppl's jokes. everyone in VG jokes about warriors being useless

everyone hates the old "N" word so they should just hurry up and bring us up to par with the other 2 in terms of survivability and damage absorbtion

I'm trying to avoid that N word but if we doin't get the hefty B word then that N word will be flying out my mouth like I have the flu.

[Kryptik]

Tell them to get off their A word and F word fix the F word class right F word now!

:)

[Romero]

my problem is that the warrior is not completely gimped. as it stands i can do my job, however the other 2 do it better... it gets tiring being the endless butt of ppl's jokes. everyone in VG jokes about warriors being useless

everyone hates the old "N" word so they should just hurry up and bring us up to par with the other 2 in terms of survivability and damage absorbtion

.....that took me a minute.

[Karnos]

I'm trying to avoid that N word but if we doin't get the hefty B word then that N word will be flying out my mouth like I have the flu.
I'll say it if you won't: Nerf dread knights.

o Their 15% block buff should last only 1 minute and be on a 5 minute reuse timer.

o They should lose their damage rune entirely.

o Their snare and fear debuffs should both break on damage and should both have 1 min reuse timers.

That is what I call a good start.

[Venge]

I'll say it if you won't: Nerf dread knights.

o Their 15% block buff should last only 1 minute and be on a 5 minute reuse timer.

o They should lose their damage rune entirely.

o Their snare and fear debuffs should both break on damage and should both have 1 min reuse timers.

That is what I call a good start.

Well that makes it easy lol

[Karnos]

Well that makes it easy lol
I am quite serious, in case there was any doubt.

[Venge]

Well Talisker told me that a round table nerf to damage absorption was coming to all the tanks. It seems the warrior is always the first to recieve the "treatment". In our case it was Wardar's Bulwark. I haven't heard of when the DK/Pal would recieve there's. I would imagine that the block buff and damage rune would get hit.

[Tuddar Raddut]

I'll say it if you won't: Nerf dread knights.

o Their 15% block buff should last only 1 minute and be on a 5 minute reuse timer.

o They should lose their damage rune entirely.

o Their snare and fear debuffs should both break on damage and should both have 1 min reuse timers.

That is what I call a good start.

Funny thing is, they just *increased* the duration of Dark Bastion and SoF this last patch, from 3 minutes to 5 minutes.

The problem is, SoF (block buff) is only 15% if you get at DC5. That can take time in normal groups, or may not actually be achieved. Many mobs die prior to reaching DC5.

The increase to their duration timers was to help them out at the beginning of fights, when they take the most damage. The problem is it also helps after DC5 is achieved.

And that's pretty much the nutshell of why DK's have an advantage on longer fights. Many of their abilities are meant to help them reduce damage until DC can reach a point where it overcomes Armor of Darkness' lower mitigation/avoidance bonus (only 10% mitigation, no block bonus, that's 5% lower than Warriors Defensive stance). Problem is those same abilities are still usable once DC has achieved a sufficient level.

The purposes of the initial weakness was to offset the stronger bonuses in DC's later stages. However, because DC takes as long as it does to build, there were complaints that those stronger bonuses weren't being achieved for a majority of content, and that is correct. Mobs die so fast that often a DK will at best reach DC3/4, which means they just begin to reach parity with Warrior/Paladin mitigation/block by the time the mob dies. So the devs have been creating additional ways to buff up that initial time. However, there has been no corresponding decrease once DC is sufficiently built.

I've argued in the past that SoF/DB should be untied from DC, or simply have the bonuses applied at lower levels of DC.

If SoF/DB instead worked so that half the bonus was applied at DC1 and the other at DC2. Since full effect would be achieved early on, there's no reason for them to have the higher values to compensate later. So if SoF applied 2.5% at DC1 and 2.5% at DC2 for a 5% bonus and DB worked similarly, then mitigation/block parity would be achieved with the Warrior stance quickly, and wouldn't give them such a large advantage later on.

As far as Warder's Bulwark, IMO how it *should* have been changed was to be effective for x amount of hits, on a one minute recast.