Need help with BoW Questions

[Zerapheus]

http://steelwarrior.xwarzone.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1540

Some members of my guild have come here in an effort to get solid evidence regarding the Blade of War. Any and all information / parsings would be GREATLY appreciated!

[Olafsky]

Trust me its the best there is out there atm for aggro.

[Ainmer]

It doesn't really need to be parsed.

Do you know any warriors who get a new weapon that is less aggro than their previous weapon and choose to wield it, especially when said warriors take a cut in stats to wield it?

Any warrior who has this weapon never uses anything else, period. Yes, it's worth farming.

[vova]

Not the answer that I'm looking for. ;) Ainmer -- I looked at your profile recently and you had some 1H (bloodfrenzy?) and the Aegis equipped. You do that just for EQrankings? ;)

[Ainmer]

Ya, mostly for EQrankings. On occasion I'll use the shield when I am in a long term tank mezzing situation, but that situation is highly rare.

[Raaj]

What is it you guys want?

You're never going to find a log where a mob tells the player "Wow, that BoW sure is a lot more agro on me". I've never met someone who was unhappy with a BoW. Just put it that way.

[ragnarz]

Never having dual EB weapons I cant really comment on the comparison. Heres what I can tell ya about BoW

1 - DPS is in the 150-225 range depending on AA's and attk
2 - It procs at a reasonably high rate, similar to 2h primal, can be streaky
3 - That 50AC is quite nice
4 - It not a magic bullet, you can still loose agro if you or others dont pay attention, duh.
5 - If you are a MT, it would be less effective to use any other weapon or combination.
6 - I havent DW'ed since I got it, recycled BoC to guild, shame to have nice 1h weapons in the bag but what can u do. I use marshal blade for dps, swap that with BoW and occaisonal primal if i pay attention.
7 - and yes, there is the potential that you do not grab agro as quickly as with a DW setup, very maangeable.

until there are parses there is not much more to discuss

[Zerapheus]

Raaj,

Per a request by our GL, Vova, we are seeking hard or parsed evidence that a BoW is a better agro weapon than dual-wielding EB weapons (of which, we have only one warrior in the guild currently DW'ing EB's). We are trying to work towards getting Rallos considered for farming of BoW's and his other high-end drops.

Thanks!

[Wychway]

Let's put it this way. Elemental planes and up you damned well better be using a 2hander, becuase DW is going to get you eaten alive by riposte.

[vova]

Let's put it this way. Elemental planes and up you damned well better be using a 2hander, becuase DW is going to get you eaten alive by riposte.

On which mobs will riposte cause a raid to get "eaten alive"? We beat reparm with a DW warrior (he tanked him for 75%).

[Ainmer]

Well FFS, can you not simply read this post 5 spots below the one you posted?

http://steelwarrior.xwarzone.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=690

Parses on page 2, guy.

[vova]

Yup, read that before posting this thread.



2h (Blade of War)

1788 DPS
4.7% Riposte rate
236 second sample

1888 DPS
5.1% Riposte rate
212 second sample

1588 DPS
3.9% Riposte rate
188 second sample


Dual wield (19 Delay primary)

1757 DPS
4.9% riposte rate
288 second sample

1684 DPS
3.1% Riposte rate
194 second sample



But it says nothing about proc rate. It does, however, greatly undermine the "you'll-get-eaten-alive-by-riposte" argument.

[Wychway]

I'd say not. The percentages stay around the same, however with DW, you are throwing a lot more blows towards the mob. At ~ 2k/pop, that's much more damage taken from DW ripostes. It will increase the possibility of a tank killing damage spike.

[Ainmer]

Let's just assume on average that a mob ripostes 4% of the time.

Let's assume that Bloodfrenzy swings an average of 2 times per second. Let's further assume that the offhand weapon swings an average of 1 times per second.

So with the above DW setup, you have 3 swings per second.

Now let's assume a Blade of War swings an average of 2 times per two seconds.

So with the BoW setup you have 1 swing per second.

Now let's imagine a fight that lasts 100 seconds.

In that time you swing your DW weapons 300 times.
In that time you swing your BoW 100 times.

4% of 300 = 12 additional hits from the mob in question.
4% of 100 = 4 additional hits from the mob in question.

Simple enough?

This means 12 seconds out of 100 seconds a mob will hit an mt up to 6 times rather than the standard 5 with Dual Wield.

This means 4 seconds out of 100 seconds a mob will hit an mt up to 6 times rather than the standard 5 with BoW.

/shrug, if you are dead set on making shit harder than it needs to be, continue on by all means.

[vova]

Quite simple, but we're talking about made up numbers. There are enough of those. If our guild warriors want us to forgo EP mold-dropping mobs in favor of spending 100 man hours per kill on a lower-tier mob who occasionally drops a weapon that MAY be better, then they'll have to justify it with parses.

Until then, the path of greater guild good is to press forward in the EPs.

[Wychway]

OMFG, I figgured it out. RED MAGE!

[Kildace]

Quite simple, but we're talking about made up numbers. There are enough of those. If our guild warriors want us to forgo EP mold-dropping mobs in favor of spending 100 man hours per kill on a lower-tier mob who occasionally drops a weapon that MAY be better, then they'll have to justify it with parses.

Are you alone in Ep or something?
I guarantee you that you will find yourself without anything worthwile in ele to kill if you arent. And this time will be well spent farming RZ.

Sure if Fire is full pop, or Fennin is up, or Water is ready to be farmed go for it, but RZ is an encounter that is up all the time, and takes 1 hour tops, I see no reason why you shouldn't farm him for a while when time permits.

[vova]

Time doesn't permit. EP mobs are up regularly with nobody killing them.

Plus, we raid 20 to 21 hours per week max. (4 hours per evening, five days per week.)

[Raaj]

Ffs Vova.

Seriously, RZ is a 1 hour raid for a not-too-rare sword, which just happens to be one of (if not the) best tank sword in the ENTIRE GAME.

You're asking us for hard evidence on something we cannot give you. I cannot say "This sword has 72.37% more agro than your dual wield". It can't be done. But you have end game warriors sitting here telling you that the BoW is worth farming, and it will help you in the long run. Why do you need hard numbers?

I CAN however tell you what i've seen as far as riposte's. Theres a goddess in the game by the name of Xegony. My guild has 3 warriors over 9800hp with Blade of War, we have 1 over 10k with BF+HG. The 10k tank has *yet* to survive against xegony, yet EACH of the BoW tanks has one tanked her the entirety of the fight. Coincidence? You tell me.

[Zerapheus]

Originally posted by Kildace
Are you alone in Ep or something?
I guarantee you that you will find yourself without anything worthwile in ele to kill if you arent. And this time will be well spent farming RZ.

Sure if Fire is full pop, or Fennin is up, or Water is ready to be farmed go for it, but RZ is an encounter that is up all the time, and takes 1 hour tops, I see no reason why you shouldn't farm him for a while when time permits.

At the moment, we are kind of alone in the Elemental Planes (just got our access 2-3 weeks ago) but we have another guild that does Fire for Fennin (leaves the mold mobs alone most of the time) and Rathe-B, and an Euro guild almost EP accessed too. Of course, we also have TR who lives in Time, but we aren't counting them. :p

RZ isn't up all the time, especially with the local zerg-invite guild wiping and crashing Tactics in the middle of a RZ attempt.

Frustrating, wot?

[vova]

My guild has 3 warriors over 9800hp with Blade of War, we have 1 over 10k with BF+HG. The 10k tank has *yet* to survive against xegony, yet EACH of the BoW tanks has one tanked her the entirety of the fight. Coincidence? You tell me.


How many AAs on each of these warriors? How much AC? What skill level (the 10k'er could be attacking through enrage every time, or running OOR of clerics).

Thanks guys, this conversation has been constructive. I sincerely mean that.

[Raaj]

The 10k tank hasnt gotten past 90% on xegony, it can't be enrage. Range isnt a problem. He's flat out dying.

There is some luck involved in xegony, as far as DI's firing, etc...but this has happened a half dozen times or more.

The AA's are all maxed (as far as defensive goes, offensive you'd have to check the magelos, guild link is below).

[Injektilo]

Vova let me put it simply. Farm the BoW for your damn warriors or all these minis that are up and wasting each night will stay up, because your warriors WONT BE LIVING THROUGH THE ENCOUNTERS =)

But hey, its your guild, do what you want......

Not like we know what we are talking about or anything, ive only been in the elementals for 7 months and time for 2 heh

[vova]

Vova let me put it simply. Farm the BoW for your damn warriors or all these minis that are up and wasting each night will stay up, because your warriors WONT BE LIVING THROUGH THE ENCOUNTERS =)

We have killed every fire mini without a BoW. We'll likely kill FenninRo without one either, but he's the gimpiest of the four.

[Daddio]

Just make up some fake parses and get your new BoW.

Here i'll do it for you

BoW 6.3 procs per minute, 182dps - test time 8 hours

Dual EB (bloodfrenzy and BoC) 4.2 procs per minute 151dps - test time 8 hours

Give that to your leadership and call it real, tell them to look me up if it turns out not to be the case.

Problem solved.

[Zerapheus]

Originally posted by Daddio
Just make up some fake parses and get your new BoW.

Here i'll do it for you

BoW 6.3 procs per minute, 182dps - test time 8 hours

Dual EB (bloodfrenzy and BoC) 4.2 procs per minute 151dps - test time 8 hours

Give that to your leadership and call it real, tell them to look me up if it turns out not to be the case.

Problem solved.

Kinda burned yerself there, Daddio, cause that won't work. Vova is our GL. :D Good shot though

[Daddio]

Sucks to be you then, worked for our guild though.

[Kellaen]

I don't think anyone's said you require a bow'd tank to kill everything in e.planes. What they are saying and you seem to just want to refute is that a bow'd tank does a much better job at staying alive and tanking then a non bow'd one.

How your gm can sit here saying something that makes a big impact on your warriors ability to tank isn't worth giving up a chance at a mold is beyond me.

[Krowbar]

Given the choice between an elemental mold (non bp/legs) and BoW I think I would pick the BoW.

[Isk]

Hook your warriors up with BoWs, and you will see benefits for the whole guild. Elemental molds own, yes it's smart to pharm them while you have the EPs to yourself, but I bet that gets boring as hell, no?

Ultimately it's your decision of course, but your warriors and your guild will be worse off if you don't grab at least a few BoWs. RZ has other very good drops and the encounter is good practice anyway, keeps ya sharp.

Also, grats on your recent Reparm kill, but Reparm's ripostes aren't what kill ya. Can't proc off a riposte.

[Briq]

Get BoW's for your warriors, like said already, it's a fucking one hour event. Grats, go clear fire, and earth then kill RZ every now and then. It's not like killing him everytime he pops, as he spawns every 2-3 days. Our main tank uses BoW. He can hold aggro better w/ BoW then w/ BF/BoC.

With fennin, he hits hard as fuck and *FAST*. One hit *will* make a difference. An unlucky riposte and your MT is dead and most likely your raid too.

BoW isn't the key to EPs, but it sure as fuck helps. Would you rather take the chance of dying to a riposte or two or lower that chance by getting your warriors some BoW's. ANd let me tell you, your warriors will be happy with you and so will your raids.

[Zotha]

How many AAs on each of these warriors? How much AC? What skill level (the 10k'er could be attacking through enrage every time, or running OOR of clerics).

Grats on proving youre totally clueless without even a rudimentry knowledge of the encounters coming up for you. Ill give you a couple of hints, if Xegony is moving youre kinda fucked already and if you lose once she hits 10% you dont deserve to be playing EQ.

[Olafsky]

Originally posted by Zotha
Grats on proving youre totally clueless without even a rudimentry knowledge of the encounters coming up for you. Ill give you a couple of hints, if Xegony is moving youre kinda fucked already and if you lose once she hits 10% you dont deserve to be playing EQ.

Classic :)

[vova]

Zotha: I don't see where that response is warranted. I think it's fair to ask if there's a similar skill level. I've seen 10k tanks that got gear through sheer persistence and attendance but who were clearly inferior in ability to other tanks on a guild's roster. I know 10k tanks that have connection issues and AFK issues. It's not safe to assume that every 10k tank has equal ability, and that was the point of my post that you took completely out of context. Please read more carefully in the future so as to avoid looking like a putz. =)

[Zotha]

Please read more carefully in the future so as to avoid looking like a putz. =)

The fact that there is MTs out there who suckass has nothing at all to do with my response. My response went to the fact youre the guildleader of a EP enabled guild who doesnt even have the forethought to look into the rudiments of upcoming encounters to have at least a small idea of what to expect.

Your continuing responses to these threads, while totally ignoring every highend warrior on these boards opinion has proven you are not at all interested in finding knowledge on this topic. You are either here to try and find justification in a decision youve obviously already made, or youre simply a troll. You may call me a putz, but you are hardheaded, annoying and obviously think very little of the warriors in your guild.

[ragnarz]

let this thread die or move it to the flame section. nothing constructive here anymore! not entertaining either (

[vova]

My response went to the fact youre the guildleader of a EP enabled guild who doesnt even have the forethought to look into the rudiments of upcoming encounters to have at least a small idea of what to expect.


Assumptions based on your speculation.

Your continuing responses to these threads, while totally ignoring every highend warrior on these boards

Oh no I haven't. In fact, my opinion is based on facts presented by warriors on this board. Many thanks to Ainian and Raaj and others who took the time to give information. I very much doubt you know my opinion any more.

I'm sorry you dislike me Zotha, but if you don't have anything to add on the subject you should probably avoid flaming. Like Ragnarz suggested, it's not productive.

[Chatja ogre]

So 2 people decides to be "honest" and because their honesty matches your opinion then its gospel?

What was it you were saying about BoW and people thinking its the best cos its hard to get?

[vova]

What was it you were saying about BoW and people thinking its the best cos its hard to get?

Still the case. There's a very clear psychological bias here. This is psych 101. The BoW is not "simply THE best" warrior weapon for all situations. Such hyperbole does the BoW advocate's case a disservice.

The BoW is best at riposte mitigation WHILE maintaining aggro.

It's not best at aggro. It's not best for HP. It's not best for resists. It's certainly near the bottom of the goddamned pile for RvR in PoP.

But riposte mitigation is a big deal on hard-hitters and if nothing else with greater RvR is alive, he's worth a kill.

As for the putz troll who suggested I don't care about our warriors, you don't merit a response, but I'll say this: I don't spend 400k of my own plat (not guild bank plat) buying gear for people I don't care about. Easy to assume I'm some mean warrior-hating caster when you don't have all the background.

[Chatja ogre]

Still the case. There's a very clear psychological bias here.

In fact, my opinion is based on facts presented by warriors on this board. Many thanks to Ainian and Raaj and others who took the time to give information

But they gave you what you wanted to hear, or atleast you chose to hear it that way.

[vova]

Heh. As you wish, Chatja!

[Chatja ogre]

There's a very clear psychological bias here. This is psych 101.

Are you under the impression that you are the only one who have attended any form of school here? Or is it maybe that you think these psyc rules does not apply to you?

[Frodlin7th]

Vova,

You've shown a remarkable misunderstanding of this issue, as well as showing that you most certainly DID come with an agenda to support your internally held position that the BoW isn't worth killing RZ for.

I'll lay it out for you:


1. Your assertion that proc rates are the totality of aggro is incorrect, and has been pointed out several times that the combination of DPS + EB proc is what makes the BoW a sight to behold. A warrior with full 2h AA's will generally do monklike DPS wielding a BoW. Brushing this aside as inconsequential is silly. It's a significant factor in the "is it worth it" equation, one which you're ignoring.

2. Hitpoints and resists are meaningless if by having more hitpoints, you become more vulnerable to dying by increasing riposte opportunities.

3. Rallos Zek is not that hard OR time consuming unless you make it such. It's an hour to an hour and a half of killing if you know what you're doing.

4. You can TALK about how much you love your warriors but the proof is in actions, not platinum spent. You have *one* warrior with Bloodfrenzy. If I'm not mistaken that's your only warrior who's DWing EB weapons. This doesn't show a commitment to equipping your warriors at all, it shows to the contrary, that your taret selection process is one of "If I can find a reasoned excuse that seems to be supported so I can avoid what I dislike doing, then I'll go get the support, regardless of whether it's from only 1-2 people, I can whip out my 'psych 101' argument to discount those who disagree with me and I'll feel justified." Incidentally, psych 101 doesn't cover the concept of "making desire factual to bolster a position", that's philsophy. Psych 101 is far too broad to cover such a concept, it touches on general principles of psych such as Maslow's Heirarchy of Self-Actualization, Freud vs. Jung, Skinnerian behaviouralizm, and touches on Pavlovian neurophysiology. Of course, my having taken Psych 101 and your not having taken it isn't quite relevant to your goal, but it's an aside that makes me chuckle. A lot of people want to talk about 'oh it's so basic, this is Psych 101' without having any clue what Psych 101 is... but they PROJECT into psych 101 what they desire to actually be there, not unlike what you're accusing warriors of doing when talking about the BoW being a great weapon, except the difference is, many of us who are speaking on this issue are doing so from experience.

I am astounded that you would expect anyone to honestly believe that you came here with an open mind as opposed to having come with preconceived notions simply looking for support for your position so you could go back to your guild and say "see? The HONEST warriors over there told me that the BoW wasn't better aggro therefore we're not going to do RZTW unless nothing else is up" You have therefore accused through implication warriors who have said "wait a minute, there's more to it" of being dishonest by singling out those who agree with your preconceived notions as being in the category of "honest ones", even though both of those examples of "honest warriors" (Raaj and Ainmer) have both said the opposite of what you're taking from this, which is that getting BoWs is worth it.

I could care less what you do with your guild or how you ignore the desire of your warriors, but when you come here and try to use us to further your agenda, and call us liars by implication due to faulty thinking and inflated values from a mythical 'psych 101' which you never took, I get a little perturbed.

[vova]

Your assertion that proc rates are the totality of aggro is incorrect,

Never asserted any such thing.

Hitpoints and resists are meaningless if by having more hitpoints, you become more vulnerable to dying by increasing riposte opportunities.

Already acknowledged that the BoW is the superior weapon for riposte mitigation. Why do you jump in here at the end without reading my previous posts? We are going in circles.

Hitpoints and resists are meaningless if by having more hitpoints, you become more vulnerable to dying by increasing riposte opportunities.


I do what's in my power while taking the good of the guild into account. Right now the local Euro guild is in a pissing match with the local Asian guild, so cursed isn't up for more than an hour these days. =) In time.


'psych 101' which you never took

Wow. Where did you dig up my transcript? Assumptions assumptions.

It's ok. I appreciate the feedback from the people who have read the arguments from the beginning. The rest are johnny-come-latelies that have nothing new to add.

[Frodlin7th]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your assertion that proc rates are the totality of aggro is incorrect,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Never asserted any such thing.

No? You were kidding when you made this post?

I was being facetious. Until we derive the formula for aggro-via-melee I am going on proc info alone.

We don't know if damage-via-backstab has an entirely different aggro multiplier from damage-via-slash/kick/punch. This is a part of the game that is not transparent to us.

This is quite transparent, however:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A = 900/44 = 20.5s between procs = 2049 aggro/min
B = 900/28 = 39.1s between procs = 1073 aggro/min
C = 900/73 = 12.3s between procs = 3414 aggro/min
D = 900/31 = 29.0s between procs = 1448 aggro/min

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You intentionally dismissed the damage based aggro generation by throwing red herrings out (i.e. 'well, backstab very well could produce more aggro than forward slash aggro', when using Occam's Razor, you would logically conclude "The rogue does more damage and must evade to get aggro, the monk does more damage and therefore must feign death from time to time to avoid aggro, therefore melee damage produces aggro proportionate to the damage inflicted, or attempted") The warrior with all offensive and 2h AA's does monklike damage (see the monk boards for lamentations about monk/warrior DPS ratios when warriors use BoW). You came here because one of your guild members who you challenged to show parses came here and you wanted to control the content of the discussion and to "prove" your preconceptions, or tailor the discusssion to reach those ends.

Facts:

1. All but one of your warriors dont' meet the "standard" which you are comparing against.

2. You have no real intention of equipping them to use the tools to perform their jobs properly, or you would make it a priority.

3. You view going back to get BoW's as a chore and as somehow "giving in to warrior pressure", as though you set up a false competition of interests between warriors and others over this weapon.

This is evidenced by the following statement which YOU made:

Given the choice between catering to warriors for a weapon that may or may not produce more aggro and durability and helping the ENTIRE GUILD, I'll help the entire guild.

In other words, you make this an either/or statement, which it's NOT. You're setting up a false dilemma because you simply don't *want* to go back and do RZTW. Fear of failure, lack of confidnce are probably the biggest factors, but you seem to have an inherent bias against warriors anyhow, so it's probably a combination of the 3, or even perhaps a realistic estimate that you killed RZTW on luck, and dont' think you can repeat it. He's a fairly short, easy kill. Farming Xegony keys and POEB keys is something you have no business doing if you're unwilling to complete the steps along the way, such as providing your warriors with the proper tools for the job.



Already acknowledged that the BoW is the superior weapon for riposte mitigation. Why do you jump in here at the end without reading my previous posts? We are going in circles.

I bring it up because YOU brought it up. YOU are the one who made the claim that BoW is less HP than DWing BF/BoC, not anyone else. You continue to bring it up as though it has any relevance whatsoever, and because of this, I point out the absolute facetiousness of that argument. More hitpoints vs. less hits in EP's will ALWAYS favor getting hit less, and therefore any reference to hitpoints is the the construction of a straw man, creating an argument because you can portray the outcome as buttressing your position. You're better than many at it, but it's still a logical fallacy.

I do what's in my power while taking the good of the guild into account. Right now the local Euro guild is in a pissing match with the local Asian guild, so cursed isn't up for more than an hour these days. =) In time.

You sound like those backslappers who have no intention of actually fulfilling all the false promises they make, they just make them to shut the people up who they're talking to. "We'll eventually get those BF's when those pesky other guilds aren't getting our spawns, in the meantime, let's go kill those EP minis to farm caster gear.

Of course, when confronted with this very issue, you sang a completely different song over on the other thread.

Ahh, Emilia, given the Stormhammer calendar, we can stay on the XTC and Cursed and AoW rotations risk-free, with no extra work for the guild. That's probably some information that would help you understand the situation better.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'psych 101' which you never took
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Wow. Where did you dig up my transcript? Assumptions assumptions.

It's ok. I appreciate the feedback from the people who have read the arguments from the beginning. The rest are johnny-come-latelies that have nothing new to add.

ROFL Frodlin, the "johnny-come-lately".. newcomer to the Steel Warrior, one who doesn't read or respond to posts or who doesn't try to understand every aspect of every issue surrounding warriors in EQ. You'll notice I responded to your LAST thread as well as this one, and have followed them since moment one when I saw your poor warrior post that he actually was sent to "prove" that the BoW was worth the invstment, to which you followed up IMMEDIATELY with your attempt to control the conversation, and input your conclusion from moment 1 that BoW was hype.

[vova]

Frodlin,

Good luck to ya. I won't be trolled by your baseless speculations.

(1) Farming BoWs is the WRONG choice for my guild at its current state of advancement and gear.

(2) The BoW does have fewer raw HP than the DW alternative. PERIOD. Get over it. Yes, it performs better for riposte mitigation, which negates any raw HP advantage in most situations under a stable rotation, but it has fewer HP, period.

(3) I asked for parses, got some from some honest warriors, and confirmed my theory. This is the scientific method: observe, hypothesize, predict, test. Not, "listen to every ranting fanatic who is so emotionally wrapped up in the success of his guild's RZTW kill that he incorrectly values an item."

If you disagree with my method, fine. I'm sorry you feel the need to turn this into a rant/flame thread. It doesn't need to go there if everyone is level-heaed, but you can't seem to refrain from ad hominen attacks, jibes and flat out dishonesty. It's unfortunate. I'm glad that some participants in this thread have been able to quelch their post RZTW kill euphoria long enough to take an honest look at the performance of this singularly overhyped weapon. I'll repeat: great weapon, but not as great as the hype.


You're on virtual ignore for a good while. TTYML.

[Itzlegend]

by saying I went back for RZ every time it was convenient until every warrior AND every paladin in my guild had a BoW.

I really dont see why you wouldnt. It is a 1 hour raid, and he has other nice drops as well. The earing is pretty damn nice and he has a nice pair of masks as well.

[Isk]

moving to the outhouse

[Itzlegend]

As far as the duel-weilding ripost arguement....

You guys have got to realize that average DPS means very very little compared to spike damage. Saying "duel weilding only made me take 30 more dps" Is meaningless if you don't realize that it comes in spikes of 2k, 3k, etc.

Another good group to ask about duel weilding versus 2handed damage is clerics. They watch the numbers as they heal and any experianced cleric will tell you a warrior with a 2hander is a warrior that is far easier to heal.

Those tallon numbers are completely 100% useless and in my opinion shouldnt even be considered in any debate. Combine those fights and you get the duel weild combo making him take 50 less dps then with the twohander. So if you want to quote those numbers as meaning anything at all, you are implying that duel weilding results in less damage input then using a 2hander. That is absurd.

Let alone such questions as.. how often was he slowed? Were any enchanters runing him? (hint: one runing encahnter can negate 100+ dps). Etc.


BoW > all by far. Period.

[Valeris]

Not sure why you even bothered to ask Vova, I don't think anyone has agreed with you fully in 4 pages and you still argue you are right and everyone else is wrong :p

[Frodlin7th]

Vova,

(1) Farming BoWs is the WRONG choice for my guild at its current state of advancement and gear.


Clearly that's your choice, perhaps because your warriors have no guts to stand up and go "The parses are in... no BoWs, no warriors, no warriors, no molds".

(2) The BoW does have fewer raw HP than the DW alternative. PERIOD. Get over it. Yes, it performs better for riposte mitigation, which negates any raw HP advantage in most situations under a stable rotation, but it has fewer HP, period.

Yeah, but the fact is that means nothing... it has *no* benefit, zip, zilch, nada, none.

(3) I asked for parses, got some from some honest warriors, and confirmed my theory. This is the scientific method: observe, hypothesize, predict, test. Not, "listen to every ranting fanatic who is so emotionally wrapped up in the success of his guild's RZTW kill that he incorrectly values an item."

You did nothing of the sort. You "hypothesized" alright and "predicted", you did NO tests, you ran out to find and embrace ANY data that seemed to support your position, and dismissed all that didn't (i.e. DPS aggro). Then in summation, you take the cynical approach of calling people who support your insane contention "honest" (thereby implying a lack of honesty in those who conclude differently), and then flat out call people who disagree "ranting fanatics who are so emotinally tied up in their RZTW kill".

If anyone's overvaluing an RZTW kill it's you. Most of us agree that it's 1-1.5 hours of a raid and not that big of a deal and totally worth it, and PARTICULARLY for your guild's warriors who you've done a terrible job of properly equipping.

[Gurunt]

"As for the putz troll who suggested I don't care about our warriors, you don't merit a response, but I'll say this: I don't spend 400k of my own plat (not guild bank plat) buying gear for people I don't care about. Easy to assume I'm some mean warrior-hating caster when you don't have all the background."


400k is like eight Greatstaffs!!

Good to be a warrior in that guild.

[vova]

400k is like eight Greatstaffs!!


Naw, it's just three bits of gear, unfortunately. And seeing as how it represented 90% of my personal account, I don't understand how you can call me cheap or ungenerous with MY time.

It's guild time that I'm a fucking cheap prick about. We have very little time to advance, and have to go for the highest RVR for our stage of development. Fire minis provide lots of bang per man-hour. RZTW does not. Sorry, buds, but warriors are not the only class that are clamoring for special gear.

[Chatja ogre]

Zerapheus,

After careful studies, I believe I have the answer for you.

LOOK FOR A NEW GUILD. That is all.

[Hussar]

Nice move vova, put Frodlin on ignore even when he didn't flame, makes it a lot easier to avoid having to reply to his well put arguements.

Simply put, it's obvious to the readers of this board that you refuse to debate, and came here with your decision in mind. You insulted a good number of people, then get angry when others insult you. You called people who favored the BoW dishonest and only listened to those who agreed with you. They had no parses either, so what makes their word worth more than others? This is not a flame, but a simple truth, you are acting immature, and you would have much better success here if you would actually listen to others instead of insult, then cry about being flamed (even when some didn't even flame you like you say they did).

If you will not act like an adult, please leave these boards. This discussion was mature until you started calling people who favored the BoW dishonest, and refused to even look at others opinions. You may be a nice person, but you have displayed yourself as rude, and hard headed. If that is the way you wish to continue to act, you will not be accepted well on these boards.

[Tugurok]

Vova's whole position is nonsensical. What sort of "parse" is he looking for? Control over aggro is not parseable, and Vova's aggro proc table, rightfully critiqued by Frodlin, is worse than useless. The best data is the expert testimonial evidence offered by people with relevant experience, which Vova briskly ignores. Moving from that to the relative difference in hps between some weapon choices as a selection criterion just moves the discussion further into the fantasy world.

[Graal the Dorf]

Vova...from the perspective of a non warrior...you sir are wasting you're time.

Do you play a caster? Can you provide a parse comparing the aggro between 2 different nukes? Since you seem to think dual wielding 2 EB weapons provides more aggro than a BoW, can you provide a parse of the amount of aggro created by dual wielding EB weapons? The whole thing is a farce on it's face.

It has been pointed out by several people already, you came here with an already formed opinion that the BoW isn't worth the farming and are trying to prove that it is right. You aren't here to find out anything, you are here to prove something to the warriors in your guild. It doesn't matter what is said here, your opinion won't change.

You aren't doing a disservice to your warriors, you are doing a disservice to your guild.

I'm not a warrior. Keep that in mind when I tell you that you are an idiot.