My idea for a proposal to SoE

[Garoar]

Ok here goes.... can we all agree to something or a couple of things to Sony? - lets start a dialogue ask for a few things that aren't game shaking but might aid us in our roles, 2 suggestions I have,

You taunt Mob_01 to ignore others and attack you. (the common message we've all seen)

Some people think Taunt is broke others think its just fine, the debate is out, but I think we can all agree on this request.

when a monk does instill doubt they get the message

"You aren't scaring anyone"

what I want to propose we ask for, for starters is 4 simple lines of code added, Im not a programmer so Im not sure its this simple but to me these 4 lines are generally what is needed, a simple if - then statement.

Printscreen : You taunt %t to ignore others and attack you ( what we see currently)

new code
If (TauntedMobTarget == me )
end
else
Printscreen : "TauntedMob" seems unaffected.
end

what it would look like ->

You taunt a moss snake to ignore others and attack you
a moss snake seems unaffected.

You taunt a moss snake to ignore others and attack you
a moss snake kicks you for 1 damage

basically a success shows nothing, a fail says the mob is unaffected, this would give us some insight as to whats happening, Im sure everyone can agree if your in a bar and start waving your arms and beating your chest to get someones attention you can pretty easily visually see if its doing something, examle - > guy keeps drinking his beer , or your on the ground holding your right eye LOL with taunt we have no clue, this code would not give some magic insight as to whats going on as to success rate it simply asks if were current target if not then say this, since aggro can be stolen easy it doesn't unvail SoE's taunt success code , simply does a target check but at least gives us a clue.

The second thing I'd like to propose is another message for us.
we all know kick has the ability to stun but its not very often we know if we did stun. What I'd like to see is

You kick UberMob_01 for 16 damage
UberMob_1 staggers

we get the stagger message for Crips but not stuns
which we would also need an added bit of info for some mobs like

You kick UberMob_1 for 8 damage
UberMob_01 is Immune to Stuns.

Casters see this, what makes us any less important? their stun immunes are in big red letters and they know when thier stuns are sucessful.

Then after we're all done with getting these small yet beingings of updates and SoE devs finally open the Warrior code and dust it off (I have the feeling they're scared to even open the warrior code due to the fear that its so old and crappy its just procrastination and trying to avoid digging thru the mess that is the warrior code) we might be able to slip in a few updates that might help aggro.

Kick Stun, why isnt there a fair amount of hate credited to kick stun, the Pallys which are the ones who are making us realize our weaknesses use stun to get and hold that snap aggro which is our whole debate. so in essence wouldn't adding a fair amount of hate to our Kick stuns and failed kick stuns bring us unto the hate list, Kick stun is still RNG so there would be no guarenteed snap aggro we would still be SoE's favorite RNG class all the same, but this would add to our ability to hold aggro better at some point without having to add more discs abilities spells who knows what else, Kick Stun could generates a substantial hate = to caster stun spells. Kick Stun is Warrior only would not affect any other class code, would raise our hate list skills starting at the needed time people are having issues holding aggro ( Kicks start to stun at 55). Maybe add a new ability which I seen mentioned long ago, EB proccing boots about the same as EB proccing shields isn't it?

You kick UberMob_01 for 5 damage
Your Horn Spiked Scrotum Splitter Boots begin to glow.
UberMob_01's faces twists with rage.

maybe make it equivilent to Taunting Blow ie Chord Hilted Spike Driver (+450 Hate list) not over powered (I know I have one of these)but nice aggro all the same, once again adding some hate and an added chance to get hold aggro along with kick stun, yet still reliant on RNG which (I agree guarenteed aggro is not correct and were not unbalanced, snap guarenteed aggro is unbalanced) But perhaps we'll get back into the issue of being dependant on gear for this and some people may not get these items, at which point at may be discussed as a inate skill maybe make this the kick stun? maybe make the actual kick stun = to +450 hate list ?

If we can agree on any of these recomendations lets shoot this out to eqfeedback@soe.sony.com? subject=Proposed Warrior Fixes ( I included the subject line so its one click link) and get a dialogue started, let SoE know were trying to get along and see if we can get a mutual resolve for all to be happy and make us feel useful again?

p.s. Id like to see the EB Boot effect added to Boots of the Storm :D (I had to be selfish somewhere)

[Daddio]

I don't really understand why we need a message to see if taunt works or not. Obviously if you taunt and the mob doesn't turn on you then it wasn't successful.
As far as kick stun agro goes, if kick is going to generate higher agro, should slam generate even more (it has a higher skill cap and therefore should have a higher agro component.) Do we really want to go back to large races > the rest.
And even if they did put EB or taunting blow on boots, they'd only be availible to the high end warriors who don't have agro problems anyway. They might put some kind of broken Furious bash I on the low end items, but that isn't going to change anything.
It's hard to solve agro problems with itemization, because right now the only people complaining about agro are the people without uber guilds, who don't have acess to most items anyway.

Just give us a mitigation boost or increase the amount of hitpoints warriors get per stamina. Things should even out, but i don't think we should have comparable agro to knights. We should however be able to tank well enough to make up for the difference.

[Poosha]

There are a few situations where you can taunt successfully but not immediately know that you have:

1. The mob is attacking someone who is low on hitpoints (i.e. Bloodfrenzy). The mob won't leave that person come hell or high water until they get above a certain percentage, thus you can't see whether or not your taunt had any effect.

2. The mob is casting a spell on someone else. They won't turn on you until they finish casting, therefore you have no way of knowing whether you need to taunt again.

3. The mob is stunned. A stunned mob will just keep facing the direction it was facing when the stun landed, so you again don't know whether you need a second taunt or not.


And, personally, I like the idea of our Kick Stuns / Slams generating some sort of aggro. I know it sure angers me when I'm stunned by mobs... why wouldn't they feel the same?

[Poosha]

Oh, and also for knowing when it's safe to break mez... it'd be nice to be able to break after the first taunt if it was successful. As it is, I tend to always taunt three times before attacking, given the success rate I've had in the past.

[Glatius2]

Actually I think the message isn't for us, it's for everyone else. So people will know, yes indeed the fargin Warrior is taunting, yes indeed his success rate is pretty meager, yes indeed this is outside his control and they can stop asking "are you taunting!!"

[Garoar]

Mainly what Im asking ATM is to just send SoE something to start dialgue, successful taunt and kick stun messages would be a start, Im not claiming to know how to fix aggro all at once, but if we start talking with SoE about something at least we start opening the door.
And yes taunt can be sucessful and you arent immediatly aware of it or you are and are getting hit, that isnt really the message I'm trying to get across, I'm trying to say its a start and not something that would change the game encounter or balance but would ease some warriors that were being heard and thought about, and I would find it useful to know if taunt worked as soon as I pushed it, casters know fizzs, SK's and Monk's know when FD fails, Monks know when ID fails ( dont know about rogues never played one), what makes our taunt and kick stun fail/success so much less important to not have a message for it? Hell casters even get failed gate messages ( Your gate was unstable and collapsed ) were the class that is left in the dark about success or fails.

The Following has no immediate bearing on what I hope happens this was the Future proposal part of my post.

As for Slam/Kick stun since we are going to get into the aggro issue, stun is stun, why doesn't it also have the same hate generation as spell stun? skill level means nothing as to what it does to generate aggro (p.s. Im Vah Shir I dont get slam) a sucessful stun roll (RNG) means you attempt to stun your target success or fail should = stun aggro same as any other attempt to stun a mob NO? be it spell or melee stun its the RNG that keeps EQ from becoming trivial but it would clear up some of our issues wouldn't it? Its pretty clear.. Pally own aggro because they do what we do only on demand and get an effect from the exact same thing we do (Stun) that we don't get, Thier stun = serious hate, our Stun = nothing. Stun = Stun be it Slam - Kick - Bash - Or pottery making , stun is stun is hate ( Except for Warriors and SoD's )

[landrain]

the problem with fixxing hp/mitigation and not fixxing aggro lock will not help us.

What I see as the overlying problem is aggro lock down. They have to know it exists, and since they have done nothing to remove or change it, they must accept it. If that is the case, then there is no reason why a warrior SHOULD NOT have the aggro generation ability of a knight. If aggro-lock trivializes the game, then it needs removed, if not then warriors need it.

it is really that simple. giving a warrior aggro-lock would help us a lot in a exp situation. on a raid, its debateable how effective it would be.

If they wont give us aggro=lock, there is really only one logical conclusion, remove it from the game. All classes that take advnatage of aggro lock, should be stripped of ability to do it.

i hate to see other classes get "nerfed" but the more and more i look at it, the more and more i see no easy solution.

if they change the spells to lower aggro. ie if the stun spells did not produce an aggro lock, then other classes, ie cleric, etc would be able to chain stun with no aggro, and that would be broken.

if they put hard caps on the spells. meaning that this spell will only work on mobs of level xx to yy. on any other mob it will not affect them at all. I think this could help. but then they would need to remove the aggro for casting spells on immune mobs. which prsonally i never understood. If I am immune to cold, and you cast ice strike at me a hundred times, i would kill you last, because either you are unable to hurt me, or are too stupid to hurt me.

the problem with raising mana cost is the low level spells are used by low level characters with mana puddles, making them expensive is not fair to them.

unless they completely revamp the paladin spell lines i see no easy fix. Changing mana, or aggro of stuns has added problems to look at.

The SK's bring a whole new set of problems. With their aggro spell lines. one solution there i see is make the spells unable to target self.

Actually one solution i see would work rather well here...

Recode all the pal/sk spells.

All Paladin stun spells, now have a jolt effect - 300 hate. they also leave a buff icon on mob that lasts 18 seconds. Also make spells unable to be cast on a mob that is of certain levels. IE level 9 stun cant be cast mobs >30 etc... This would allow them to chain stun but would lower it to more mana intensive spells. this would work well when pulling a mob, they could chain stun until slowed etc.

All SK aggro spells are unable to target self.

These changes would allow both sk/pal to work well in a group, ie stun till slowed, aggro up the MT, etc.. and they could still be good tanks. It would not change their tanking ability at all, they would be able to tank same way a warrior does.

this would mostly remove aggro lock, and return EQ to a game that requires some skill, not mindless dps

[Daddio]

Warriors have agro lock, it just takes a few seconds to achieve; so increased mitigation should be able to make up for the 5 seconds at the start of the fight when agro can be sketchy. I honestly can't say that i've ever lost agro after i get it unless we're talking about a mob with some kind of special ability for months (reparm comes to mind, but that's not important to this discussion.)

I just don't want people asking for unrealistic changes that'll label us as a bunch of cry babies with the devs. Agro lock for us at the beginning of the fight is unrealistic, im not totally aware of what other agro problems warriors are having, but i can lock agro with my two worst weapons pretty easily, so losing agro in the middle of the fight can't be that big of a concern.

With increased mitigation for warriors, knights and warriors can maintain their own unique niches. While being equally desierable for groups. If we can lock agro right away, knights lose their entire group role and we're definatly not going to get a change like that.

[Jear]

From what i know about kick / slam. it isn't a stun everytime. It is a XX chance of adding a stun componet to the kick/slam. So posibly why you don't see a high agro is that you don't try to stun on every kick, but only X out of Z kicks where only Y hit.
And I agree with Daddio that items won't fix average warriors problems.
What I have though a good idea that was proposed on another tread (there are soo damm many of these by now) is that warriors gain a Agro inscreese (much like the voise that SKs have) bvut this should be inate and affected by lvls ofr example 0,05% more agro pr lvl. This should effect all things. Swings, procs EB weapons taunting blow and so on so that a EB item swinged by a lvl 65 warrior would generate 3.25% more agro aka instead of 700 points of agro it would do 722,75 points of agro.
And if Developers are smart they make it so that it so that this inate doesn't stack with SK/chanter buff so that encounters on high lvl base or any lvl base aren't changed unless you don't have a SK/chanter to buff the warrior with agro.

[BrikBludgaard]

Landrain, I think you seriously misunderstand the SK spell lines (similar to nearly EVERY other player, you have no clue what SK spells do)

Sk have spells that are +hate.... they are castable Enraging blow basically.... only instead of procing, they are cast... on the mob.

SK rarely use their +% hate buff on themsleves...
it does help... but most simply do not need it as SK have studied aggro for the longest time, and know when to cast that +hate spell at just the right time to keep aggro... we also have studied taunt and know when to best use it WITH our spells to result in aggro that only leaves us for a short time if ever provided we have mana.

Both of these spell lines were recently added and ONLY do that specific thing.

looks to me like they are being used as intended.

please ask a shadowknight how their spells work if you don't understand.

Brik

[Valeris]

Bow before the Uberleet SK's all ye pitiful know nothing warriors...

Gotta love you Brik :)

/snicker

Val

[landrain]

Originally posted by BrikBludgaard
Landrain, I think you seriously misunderstand the SK spell lines (similar to nearly EVERY other player, you have no clue what SK spells do)

Sk have spells that are +hate.... they are castable Enraging blow basically.... only instead of procing, they are cast... on the mob.

SK rarely use their +% hate buff on themsleves...
it does help... but most simply do not need it as SK have studied aggro for the longest time, and know when to cast that +hate spell at just the right time to keep aggro... we also have studied taunt and know when to best use it WITH our spells to result in aggro that only leaves us for a short time if ever provided we have mana.

Both of these spell lines were recently added and ONLY do that specific thing.

looks to me like they are being used as intended.

please ask a shadowknight how their spells work if you don't understand.

Brik

And Being able to cast this on another person so that they get an EB effect is what I was saying...

Do You know what warriors would PAY to get an on demand EB effect?

There are reasons BoC's sell for 300k pp and $400 or more... And even then you are still a slave to the RNG. Maxxed stats and you still cannot guarantee a proc...

CAST on OTHERS the effect.. how hard was that to understand?

[landrain]

Originally posted by Daddio
Agro lock for us at the beginning of the fight is unrealistic, im not totally aware of what other agro problems warriors are having, but i can lock agro with my two worst weapons pretty easily, so losing agro in the middle of the fight can't be that big of a concern.


From someone with a BoW, Vengance 11, 6800 hps, I can see why you have no problems with aggro lock. Now go put your Champion armor on, get a frosty and a redblade, and see how many groups you get in PoV/BoT etc... and how well you lock aggro..

It aint gonna happen...

gimme a paladin in kunark armor and a rusty steel sword and he WILL AGGRO lock...

This is not a problem for most ubers... this is a problem for warriors who will probably never see any of the tier 3+ planes...

[kragrock]

OK I obviously am missing something here. How does more HP's increased mitigation actually help us. Is there mobs out there that hit so hard that they are impossible to kill? Is the reason that we dont have enough hitpoints or we get hit to hard?

Personally I just cannot see this. It is now possible to hit 10k hp and it isnt especially hard to to reach 5k buffed up for most 50 plus warriors. In most groups I'm looking at a minimum of 4500 hp and im at level 54 with zero AA's, now taking away the gear advantage I have over a lot of warriors at my level, I still think most would get 4k plus with ease. This is more than enough to tank in tier 1 planes. As you move up to tier 2, 5k-5500hp buffed is sufficient to do the job. All you are going to do with this is cut down the number of CH's you need. When was the last time your cleric went OOM in a group enviroment?

As to Raid encounters the same applies, the gear is available to kill any mob in the game. It just takes a bit of knowledge and skill. This in my humble opinion isnt what out problem here is. It lies in the fact that both Pallys and SK's can also achieve enough HP's and AC to tank all but a few mobs but they have the advantage of almost rock solid agro lock and whole lines of spells which just make them preferable to a warrior. I have yet to meet a warrior who when joining an experience group could not only tank the mobs the groupis hitting but also Buff the group, heal the group along with umteen other things and hold rock solid agro from the word go.

This to me is what makes things unbalancing. When you look at the pro's and conn's in everyday exp grinding, we are always going to lose when it comes to a choice. This isnt a direct quote but it has been said that warriors dont aid an experience group WE HINDER it. This is so true. Why? because when a warrior tanks, people have to manage there agro at all times (This doesnt apply to the level 65 warrior with 100 AA's and BoW, this applies to the rest of us more mortal souls) They have to watch what spells they cast, other melee have to stop attacking every now and then and this is all because we cannot gain and hold any form of solid agro unless we have those 100 AA's and UBER EB weapon.

The point here is Pallies/SK's here can do this at practically any level and equipment doesnt even come in to it.

At the end of the day WE are the Warriors, WE are the ones who are meant to define being able to take the hits. WE are the ones who by our very nature are meant to be the meatshields of Norrath. Paladins and Shadowknights are hybrids, this means that although they can cover in this role if needs be, it is not there ONLY role in the game. It is however meant to be a warriors only role in the game. We are not here to add substantial DPS, We are not healers or buffers or anything else. Our jobs is to stand there and get beat upon while other people take charge of the killing and buffing and healing and so on.

Everquest is a game of specialist classes coming together to do a job. But in this world you also have none specialists who although are able to do the job (the hybrids) Shouldnt be able to do the same job infinitly superior to the specialist 90% of the time. Instead there able to do more than one role to make up for this.

All I ask is we are given the tools to do the job we are designed for at least as easily as the hybrids. This means the abilty for snap agro for all, not just the few who have access to EB weapons. Hell not even they have snap agro because its dependant on procs. In the mundane everyday world of grinding through experience in a group we are made to take the hits front and center whilst others go about the job of killing and such. We should at least have the skills available to let us do this.

But at the end of the day what does my opinion count for im just a paying customer, trying to muddle through as bast as I can.

Krag


EDIT:- I never included an actual idea, well this was my initial idea

http://steelwarrior.xwarzone.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=703

But I now have another one

A new taunt melee button, one that is warrior only. Lets call it Taunt2. A specialist warrior only taunt.

Taunt2
Single target
range 100
adds pure hate from 25 at level 16 to 300 at level 65
refresh 45 seconds

may need adjusting when it comes to the hate numbers but you get the idea.

[BrikBludgaard]

Valeris...

Are you claiming to know more about SK spells than a Shadowknight? he had it wrong (and still has it wrong)

if I started spouting off about warriors being uber powerful being able to give anyone the shield ability, wouldn't you correct me?

you gotta love the "I don't want to know, I want to be ignorant and claim rediculous things about something I have no clue about" attitude from the peanut gallery.

landrain doesn't understand, but at least he's trying... whats your excuse Valeris?



Our "castable buff" does NOT make you proc EB... it adds X% to all the hate you cause. The castable buff is not nearly as powerful as what you describe.

landrain... do you have ANY idea how much 700HP above what I currently have would cost?

The cost is unmeasureable, as you cannot buy Plane of Time gear.
You purchase hybrid taunt for a measly 300K?

DUDE! wheres my /defensive item! I dont care WHAT it costs... droppable /defensive item here I come!

my point is simply that there is another side of the coin...

I don't really want defensive... I dont believe that would be fair... Neither is warriors with true hybrid level taunt... neither is nerfing hybrids into worthlessness again.

A small, significant change in the reliability of warrior +numerical hate in the form of a +hate added to the kick (so you could TAUNT then KICK to give yourself a hate lead above the slower/mezzer/etc.) would change much and not harm knights significantly.

I too would love to see /disciplines tuned... for everyone.

Brik

[Valeris]

Yeah i guess i was a little out of line but you do make it sound like all SK's are 'Artistes' with fine sensibilities and no arseholes amongst the ranks :)

[Zackulle]

CAST on OTHERS the effect.. how hard was that to understand?
Maybe I misunderstood this statement, but I play a shadowknight as well as a warrior and the SK EB type spell is not a buff. Its like any DD spell, you target the mob cast it and it adds + hate. There is also a line of hate that adds + X% to all attacks, which can be cast on anyone.

that aside i've been outa the loop for a while, what does "RNG" mean?

Also I like the idea of adding a + hate to kick stun/slam stun. Shouldnt make any difference whether its kick, slam, or a spell, it should all piss em off. Only adding it on a successfull stun check would be good, whether they are imune or not. Also they just needa make spells that a mob is immune to = NO agro, I very much dislike the idea of people grabbing agro with a spell that does absolutely nothing to a mob.

[Isk]

RNG = random number generator

[Zackulle]

ahh ok :b everything makes sense now :)

[kiztent]

Originally posted by Poosha
Oh, and also for knowing when it's safe to break mez... it'd be nice to be able to break after the first taunt if it was successful. As it is, I tend to always taunt three times before attacking, given the success rate I've had in the past.

You have an assist key right?

After you taunt, assist the mob. If the enchanter/slower's name pops up, taunt didn't work. Taunt again. If your name comes up, taunt worked. Break mez - you will get aggro unless someone high on the aggro list sits between you assisting and you breaking mez.