View Full Version : Innate Defense Question
06-04-2003, 02:59 PM
My guild just recently opened ourselves to the elemental planes.
My question is would it be worth it to invest in Innate Defense for the sake of elemental mobs (and I mean for both exp groups and MTing mini names)?
According to some other posts and research about it, it does migate some damage but would it be still worth the 15 AAs?
Any advice on this is greatly appreciated.
06-04-2003, 04:35 PM
From what I understand, avoidance is more important in PoP. So LR > ID. The logic being: its better to not get hit for 2k+ than to get hit for 1500, with 500 mitigated. From what I've seen from the warriors in myguild who actually have AAs, avoidance is the way to go.
06-04-2003, 04:55 PM
Just guessing, but from the content of the original message, it seems like this warrior already has maxed avoidance AAs, and is just seeing if ID is worth 15 points...
Personally, I think that any skill reducing the damage we take is worth the points. We're supposed to sop up damage as well as we possibly can, and we make ourselves better either with AAs or AC / hp gear upgrades. Max out your ID :)
06-04-2003, 05:07 PM
I tell you what, when Blazzax the omnifiend hits you for 900 instead of 3000, you will praise the day when you pinged id5. Perhaps the most underrated AA in the game.
06-04-2003, 05:51 PM
This topic has been beatin to death.
Sscaley did a *huge* parse not too long ago and seemed to conclude that LR and ID will reduce melee damage received by damn near identical rates. I have seen nothing to contradict his conclusion and his parse just makes good sense also.
In terms of damage received, a *avoided hit is superior to a mitigated one* appears completely invalid.
However, *most* people prefer LR over ID for other reasons. The ability to reduce the amount of times you get stunned or receive proc damage might be a few examples. However, ID believes perfer to point at reduced damage *spikes* (I dont prefer that term, but it is frequently used) and increased DPS when used in conjunction with a DS.
I agree 100% with Boonk--ID is a totally undervalued AA and LR is completely overvalued (when compared to ID that is). ID is a terrific AA and I know not why so many classes, tanks especially, go straight for LR and completely ignore ID, even when LR is completed.
Going for LR first definitely has merit--it may not be the *right* answer, but it can be argued that way....ignoring ID, however, is completely boggling...They are so close to yielding similar benefits, it isnt even funny.
06-04-2003, 07:02 PM
LR = ID (gain wise).
A hit that will get you to low hp agro....
Will still get you to low hp agro with ID5 if mitigated.
Will not get you to low hp agro with LR5 if avoided.
Stupid ? Probably, but thats why i went for LR first.
06-04-2003, 11:26 PM
PS : LR is not overvalued.
ID/LR was based to give full and balanced benefits for melee classes.
A caster with LR5 will see a huge improvement.
While a caster with ID5 will still go splat.
06-05-2003, 02:38 AM
Looks like my original idea went off topic a little.
The reason I'm asking is whether for the "small" damage migation is worth the 15 AA points. Untill the experiance modifier goes live, I am grinding with either pickup groups or guildmates and the AA exp goes up slow.
I don't want to talk or read about Lightning Relexes, it's not what I want to know. Do please stop comparing it with Innate Defense.
So far, Fvighlander and Boonk have given me some answers to my question. All you rest are a little "off". Any more advice would be nice. If it really does just a small migation, I rather go after some offensive AAs and go after ID5 later.
Right now, Temple of Solusek Ro zone is very nice and that huge alligator in PoEarth is too huge with a small hit box. What's up with that?
06-05-2003, 03:02 AM
Get id5, I really can't see a warrior successfully tanking the nameds in elementals without full defensive capability. Ofcourse, anything is doable but your local cleric might get upset when they have to empty their manapool on random yardtrash.
06-05-2003, 04:35 AM
The reason I'm asking is whether for the "small" damage migation is worth the 15 AA points
15 aa points... can get an aa every 2 hours easy? so that means 30 hours of work, which you can get that in a week by not exping much at all. AA never make HUGE differences; that's why they are so easy to get. the "small" damage mitigation is still a damage mitigation, and any damage mitigation should be taken seriously and capitalized upon.
I believe the confusion here is not about overvaluing/undervaluing LR and ID... you can argue about that all day. I think you're just overvaluing AA in general. What else is there to spend 15 points on that is going to make any more of a difference? And even if there is... take another week to get ID.
06-05-2003, 02:09 PM
People overvalue LR too much because they basically attribute any misses due to LR. The fact is that you can be a wizard wearing nothing tanking Fennin Ro and he'd still have some chance of missing you. I hear stuff like 'That mob missed me 3 times must be LR working." all the time.
These are both good AAs. ID is hard to quantify because the effect varies from person to person (clearly it depends to some degree what AC you have. ID5 isn't going to help if you're tanking Fennin Ro with no equipment). Going with LR first is a good idea, but it isn't because LR is that much superior to ID.
06-05-2003, 09:31 PM
I would do the 15 points for Innate Defense...
Just because if you get hit it will keep you alive longer being hit for 1500 instead of 2000. Especially in a zone like Plane of Earth where mobs hit like a truck and 500-600 points of damage mitigated really counts
06-06-2003, 01:22 AM
If you're in elementals you're looking at like an XP an hour at worse, and closer to 30 minutes at best. When you look at it like that how can you go wrong? If you do the Red's in fire that can quad up to 981 you're really going to want to mitigate that a lot particuarlly if you xp w/o a shaman :)
06-06-2003, 09:30 AM
Heh, why would you be a warrior and NOT work your defensive skills? :)
06-06-2003, 11:44 AM
Hey again Warriors,
The reason I asked this is because another warrior and I were talking about our AAs.
He prefered not to go for Innate Defense cause it's 15 AAs for a small migation of damage. Not worth it he said. We of course talked on more and it did get me thinking about it and the right AA path for me to go. I am kind of tired of going after defensive AAs and I can't wait to go after some offensive AAs after all my defensive stuff is done.
Yeah exp in the elementals are better than the usual BoT or PoV but when I think too much, weird question start to fly around my head and knowing some sort of answer is always good.
Don't you think so too?
06-06-2003, 12:11 PM
ID5 makes a difference. I would, without question, get it.
The reason I made the initial comparo was not to go *top topic*, as you put it, but rather to illustrate the point that ID is very comparable to LR, and LR seems to be *the* AA to get in regards to melee.
I would ask your friend WAR if he got LR. My guess is that he probably did. If so, then why isnt he working on ID then?
I wont argue which one is better for a WAR, but I believe that it has been shown to be in the same ballpark. If you like LR, its hard not to like ID also.
ID has gotten a bad rap IMO. It is defenitely a worthwhile AA to get, especially for tank classes.
06-07-2003, 04:36 AM
If you don't feel defensive skills are worth it don't get it. You should never feel that you have to have a certain AA to function (well, AE Taunt comes close).
06-07-2003, 05:28 AM
it helps some, anything that gives you a chance to live a second longer so a CH lands is worth getting, any given raid is only going to have so many tanks you can run through and doing tank switches is a bit messy. the minis in pof hit insanely hard, you need every little thing you can get heh.
they buffed them up a little too good imo. why you get similar loot from that pyro frog and gen reparm is so outa whack its not even funny. reparm/archmage/blazzax should have 4 molds or 2 molds and 2 utility slot drops if other guys drop 2 molds. you just dont know what dmg output really is till you tank something like reparm, its really stupid damage, get the aas hehe.
06-07-2003, 02:57 PM
The whole point of a tank is to take the potential damage and either mitigate the blow or avoid it outright. AA's that help augment our abilities to 'take the blow' are well worth the cost.The reason I'm asking is whether for the "small" damage migation is worth the 15 AA pointsAnything offensive you chose to persue will also only yield "small" gains alone. Kind of throws a wrench in your reasoning to avoid ID in favor of offensive stuff.
Personally I never touched an offensive aa untill I had all the defensive ones for that time covered. The lower overall incoming damage totals helped my groups and guild far more then a dps increase ever would have or did.
06-07-2003, 10:34 PM
Some offensive skills directly influence aggro (namely everything that makes you attack more often), which not only lets you do more DPS but everyone else as well (since you now have more aggro). In fact it's arguable that aggro is more useful than mere defense. Heck, the entire Knight threads are about this.
06-07-2003, 11:40 PM
Can someone link me Sscaley parse of LR5 and ID5
06-08-2003, 09:31 AM
Would love to see that as well, see how it compares to my parsing....and is Sscaley a warrior, or monk? could have some bearing on results as well..
vBulletin® v3.8.4, Copyright ©2000-2013, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.