Levels > all?

[Fitemore]

Ok, this has been bugging me for a very long time. The conventional wisdom is that levels > AA, levels > gear, levels > everything for warriors. Here is my question though: Why?

I understand that there is innate gains from leveling, such as higher damage tables, higher damage bonus, more hp, higher skill caps (< level 60), higher stat caps (> 60), access to more AA (levels 51, 55, 59 and 61+), new disciplines (levels 30, 40, 52-60), lower disc refresh (levels 53-60), less level based agro and possibly some innate avoidance and mitigation increases.

However, how much do those increases actually matter when compared to various AA abilities and just plain farming for gear and plat? Has anyone parsed the defensive abilities, especially at 60+, where the only change is level gain? Do those innate gains actually matter in some significant manner? Am I missing some level based increase?

Personally, I believe the conventional wisdom and I can tell a good story of how much easier tanking mobs is after gaining a level. However, I haven't actually seen any hard evidence of it.

[chongo]

I think it's a 'rule of thumb' more than a 'sure thing'.


The way I see it, Levels are easy to come by. Certain gear/camps are not.

Why camp a spot for 15hrs when you could have been leveling to get that same amount of gain.

It also really depends on your play style. Do you raid? Do you raid stuff that may drop upgrades? Are those upgrades similar to what you would be spending 15hrs camping?

Why camp a mob that you can one group for 15hrs when you could have been leveling and then end up w/ a similar item or better the next time you raid.

As far as parsing, or graphs are concerned, unfortunately I can't help you there. Man, I really should get into this parsing bit...

[Dinian]

Chongo, man your sig is like the size of my monitor. At least check off the show signature option after your first post~

[chongo]

that was my first post tho!

and, higher resolutions are > Dinian!

=)

I'll modify it soon.

[Fitemore]

Why camp a spot for 15hrs when you could have been leveling to get that same amount of gain.

That is one of the things I'm asking... Is the leveling for 15 hours better than the farming stuff for 15 hours? For example, acrylia bricks/blocks/pieces sell rather well, and also drop commonly. Would it be better to farm green, trivial mobs for those 15 hours and buy an upgraded weapon/armor, or would it be better to level?

Obviously, these questions depend on the level you're at. For me, there isn't too much more junk I can buy as upgrades and they'd be small upgrades at that. However, what about someone that doesn't have friends in a raiding guild? <shrugs> I'm wavering back and forth between each opinion atm :)

[Raunstonecutter]

It depends on what you are in need of gear wise, and what level and AA point you are.

If you are not PoV/PoS flagged, in a guild that raids decently sized targets, or don't plan on either of those for a while, then I would not level past 60. At 60 AA's come so much easier.

I am currently attempting to level to 65, but it's so hard since there are a ton of tanks 63+ LFG at the same time I am. I have to rely on guild groupings for the most part to get any xp at all, and those aren't always there.

But if you don't have these problems, then level to 65 and AA from there. It's much easier to find groups and raids at 65 (as well as be taken serisously) than it is at 61.

Just my 2cp

[Zebedi]

Paper tank rant on eqclerics (http://eqcleric.gameglow.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15037)

Here's some clerics rant. You do NOT want to be that warrior.

My theory is that post 60 AA>Gear>Levels. If you're still in crusty/FBSS/centi longswords, you don't want to level past 60, PERIOD.

Here's the rant..

Sometimes I just want brainless, easy flavorless xp grind, the sort I can fall into coma and let my fingers tap-tap-tap CH key for hours. So, I head into PoV, put on LFG tag and shout once or twice to the zone 65 cleric LFG. I get a group, whatever location - they are all the same, mobs that hit hard but don't do anything that special. Buffs are exchanged, I check through the classes we have, slower, tank, me say gtg and puller fetches a mob.

Mob wanders in, turns to MT after stun or snare and starts the "unslowed mob tearing up a tank" -routine. I go "huh?", toss a fast heal and curse at the RNG for the nasty set of max hits and procs (I assume). Well, mob is slowed and I start a CH at 70 to be on the safe side - and the mob goes CRUNCH CRUNCH RAWR!, frantic duck and fast SR lands 2 hp shy of purple club entry. At this point a cold, numb feeling is spreading inside me and I ask (in the 3.0 sec SR spell gem takes to refresh), knowing I don't want to know: "uhm .. what's yer max hp atm, MT_01?".

"4454 with virtue"

"..." go I, and oops! my guild calls a raid at 5am local time when there are 3 of us online, the 2 others bazaar mules. So sorry I had to go so quickly, I do apologize and hope ya'll good hunt (if ye can find some poor bastard to heal ya'll).

Otherwise it might even be funny, but for the fact I buff these gearless, AAless tier 1 tanks with dots before I realize my grave mistakes...

PS. My 57 beastlord has 4240 hp with virtue and self-buffs - think I could tank in PoV if I'd get flagged?




If you are at 3000 to 3500 hp unbuffed, may I strongly suggest that you switch to AA and go buy or raid/quest some better armor before showing your face in PoV. There's no reason you can't find cheap gear with 50hp (in +sta or pure HP)or so in every slot. 50x15= 750hp.

Here is a link to a faked up gimpy gnome warrior who put his starting points in strength..
http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=656048

Hp at 60 with the gear I gave him is 3322. When I simply moved him to 65, his hitpoints jumped up to a whopping 3540. Gain of 218 hp.

When I give him run3, stamina3, and ND3 (total of 18 AA) his hp go to 3692 @60. If i give him PD (we're up to 23 AA now), he goes to 3759. So, for 23 AA he got 537hp.(and slightly better mitigation/avoidance too from PE).

I didn't spent lots of time playing with his gear, but he's wearing some real crap, easy to upgrade with a small, casual raid force. For giggles, i made an alternate profile with full thurg armor and a couple of better buyable pieces.
The difference between the two profiles is 360 hp.

[Haass]

That's true at any level tho.

For some people, the only thing in their minds is LEVEL LEVEL LEVEL LEVEL, so they end up being level 60 wearing crusty, or level 50 wearing ringmail they looted in HHK or what have you. That's their choice I guess, I always preferred to be decently equipped. The raid stuff will still be there when you hit 60. The AA's will still be there. Your oppurtunity to get to said mobs decreases dramatically tho if you let your gear go.

One of my friends was in the 2nd highest guild alliance on the server. Before POP came out, they got an app from a warrior who had barely any more hp than my friggin shaman. I laughed my ass off after they denied him, because I got a ninja invite from an officer of the same guild just by running by him with my Marshall tag and by looking at my visible gear. Your level is only part of your perception. Granted, for some people, your level is all that matters, but you really don't want to be grouping with those people anyway.

Now some people will say "Ya, but you're rich, I don't have that kind of money." That's because you don't WANT to have that kind of money, obviously. If you wanted to improve your gear thru monetary means, you could. There was one shaman in my guild that bitched and bitched and bitched and bitched about how he didn't have Malo or Torpor, and yet he sat in POJ all day doing XP. Sorry dude, you've got zero sympathy from me if you can't go somewhere that cash or decent items worth cash drop.

The game is what you make of it. If you're not getting what you want out of this game, you're not trying hard enough, period. If you want, you can level and get into your servers top guild. If you want, you can be the best equipped warrior at any level you're at. You just have to put forth the effort. If you are unable to put forth the effort due to RL things, or just a lack of motivation, then sorry, you don't deserve it out of EQ. It's not mean, it's just the way it is.

[weoden]

I was in a group where I needed a rep so i did a / all war lfg. Anyway, I saw a war lfg and said so and so can rep me. The WHOLE group said no no not him, he can't hold aggro.

Anyway, at that point there was a realization that some warriors have difficulty taunting pov mobs even at level 65. I also remember having a hard time taking hits when I was leveling up to 65 as well.

I guess my point is... if you can hold agro and take punishment well then level up but consider stopping your leveling and stay in easier zones based on equipment and your aa. AA can compensate for poorer equip but aa can only do so much...

Now my final point, it is better to be the best in a lower level/xp zone then to get a bad rep doing the highest zone you can. I guess that is my point.

[kragrock]

Have to agree here, I'm at level 52 now and sitting at close to 3200hp unbuffed and about 1180 AC also unbuffed. I dont have a high level cash cow, I just made sure i take the time out to make enough money to give me the equipment to do the job to the best of my abilities such as they are. Doesnt half make the clerics happy when they group with me.

[Zebedi]

Originally posted by weoden

Now my final point, it is better to be the best in a lower level/xp zone then to get a bad rep doing the highest zone you can. I guess that is my point.

Damn straight, level 65 might get you into a group faster, but doing your job well will get you a second group with the same people.

[Cyphan]

I decided to stop at 60 and do AAs for various reasons and I think I made the best decision.

I dont know, I guess I would take it in cycles. It was always level level level then stop to upgrade until I reached some sort of goal: 1000ac, 1100ac 4000hp etc. Moving into Tier 2 always had me worried I would become that "paper tank" So i stopped at 60 and scored some upgrades and am working on AAs now. Only 4 people in my guild are flagged and we dont raid anything beyond HoT level so I kinda figured staying at 60 would be in my best interests.

Im closing in on ND3 now and have most of the upgrades I wanted complete so I should be breaking 4500hp unbuffed real soon, and am looking forword to doing trials and hopefully holding my own in PoV, though I could never stack up against a high end tank. Not bad for a tank with only one item from ToV :)

Levels or AA only depends on your situation. What hasbeen said before is about certain places being designed for certain kinds of players is correct. PoV is a step up from any other exp. spot in the game and you need to be ready to make it worthwhile for you and your group.

[Ladiiesman]

bah Krag you make mad loot and have money falling out of your asshole )

can you say "earring of the solstice"?

hehe just busting the ol balls bro.

Can i borrow your sword?

[Superchum]

"Moving into Tier 2 always had me worried I would become that "paper tank" So i stopped at 60 and scored some upgrades and am working on AAs now. "

After reading the paper tank rant I have to say this ... you shouldn't worry about that kind of stuff man.

It's a 2-way street. The cleric in that particular rant even said he wanted MINDLESS XPing where he didn't have to THINK. Basically the cleric was being lazy. But when the cleric's laziness became part of a problem in that particular group, the cleric decided to move on, becauase the easy, mindless time he was looking for wasn't to be found in THAT particular group.

I'm not attacking that cleric. All I'm saying is, that particular tank COULD have tanked just fine in that zone, in a DIFFERENT situation.

The tank's not at fault. The cleric is for expecting everyone in a pickup group to be up to his standards of play. But I guess that's just because it'd been awhile since that particular person had been in NEED of a pickup group.

Anyways, my point is ... it's a 2-way street when grouping. Everyone has to bring something to the table. Tanks, clerics, everyone.

And PoP zones that are already NOTORIOUS for being PICKUP-land, aka DREADLANDS 2, usually aren't the places to go looking for well geared tanks and easy XP where you as a healer don't have to do much, imo.

That being said, AAs are important. Levels are important. Your gear is important.

Play the game however the hell you want to though. You'll level up, you'll get gear, you'll get AAs. All it takes is time.

[bene2]

As a cleric, I would say stay out of PoV and surely out of PoS until 4000hp unbuffed. Usually I can keep up well on tanks with less, but it is very hard. I wouldnt say you need 4500 or 5k+

If you can't seem to get enough HP after ND3 work on your other abilities, specifically CA3. A tank with CA3 is noticably better than one without it. CS helps too.

Just thought you guys might want a healers perspective.

[Steenky]

At level 60 with 3150hp 1150ac unbuffed in a guild group my first time doing PoS I had more trouble with aggro than hp's. I did have a 62 and 65 rogue in my group plus a wizard and druid in the background, not to mention the chanter and cleric...

I had enough hp's to be able to live, but the ping-pong was a tad bit tough since I don't have AE taunt.( Still working on Run2 hehe) I guess I have a fear of turning a massive portion of my blue exp mobs to Lt. blue or green upon ding like I did with my cleric Treage.

The point I'm trying to make is that I had enough hp's to do the job, but with my weapons and level the aggro was dicey between all the firepower around me. I need better stuff, AA's, or levels and I'm just as torn with this issue as the original poster.

I don't play that much anymore compaired to 4 years ago. Now I'm on 2-3 nights per week at around 3-4 hours each. I realize its my lack of time commitment that is my downfall. I'm not in a complaining mode, but rather an inquisitive one aswell.

[Kamce]

Pre-PoP levels were always greater then anything else. There was a decent number of spots to xp to match the gear/AA make up of a warrior.

Post-PoP the line has become blurred considerably. Primarily because the number of zones an individual can gain xp has dwindled to next to nothing.

For me, I got to level 60 and got 6 AAs but still would lose aggro to poorly played classes. Dinged 61 to see what the change would be and found that I could get aggro better and hold it better with poorly played classes. (Aggro is never an issue when you are in a group that knows what they are doing.)

My current plan is to work to get close to dinging 62 then go back to working AAs. I realize that AAs go a bit slower at 61 then the did at 60, but my play time has been more enjoyable at 61. To me the trade-off is worth it, and for my guild this will work.

This is not to say that this is best for everyone. Each persons play style is different and you need to find what works best for you.

Regardless of the level of play, I find that pick-up groups are usually more pain the they are worth for the few hours a day that I am on. There is always someone in the group who feels that they are better than you, that will try to prove they can take aggro from you, or just complain.

Kamce

[Osowar MT]

3200 hp 1180 ac at lev 52 is pretty good Krag, you must be doing something right....:)

[Serraph]

I hope this helps you-
With some extreme exceptions levels are > than all.
now of course if you are lvl 59 and in crafted armor, go get you something other than that paper bag you are wearing. If your weapon is an executioners axe, go get a weapon.
BUT in general lvl > all

A couple of for instances....
I saved up forever to get my AA's for ND3. total if 12 of them, my "big jump" from ND2 to ND3 was 164 HP's. (in PoV that = about a fouth of one hit). in the same amount of time levelling would have gotten me well over 100 hitpoints AND all of the extra bonus's that go with the level.

When I went from lvl 60 to 61 my normal cleric asked me... "Did you level"? (I was trying to keep it a secret) When I asked why he asked he told me it was way easier to keep me healed now...
that for me spoke volumes!


MY ADVICE:
1. get run3
2. get to 60 ASAP
3. after 60 fix any immediate needs- get gear to an appropriate level,(nothing special but appropriate)
4. lvl to 65
5. if along the way you have needs address them

I for example had twice where I needed to AA for a bit as a necessity. Once when my hitpoints were out of whack and I had to do AA's to be a proper HP count for my level so I did not embarass myself, and get a bad rep. And the second I, unlike everyone else on this board it seems, do not have a hatebringer and a BoC. So I needed to do some offensive AA's to hold aggro properly.

I did not want people to think they were getting a 65 tank, and really be getting a 57 tank in 65 clothing (if you catch my drift)

I hope some of my ramblings help.

BUT in general I have to agree 65> all.

[Fitemore]

I appreciate all of the responses I've gotten thus far, but unfortunately it hasn't really answered my question. I'm hearing great stories about how levels are better, which fit my experiences with levels. I'm also hearing that you should spend time getting new stuff if you're wearing really crappy armor, or weilding a terrible weapon (extreme equipment discrepencies for your level).

However, does anyone have any hard evidence for why levels are better? Are there any parses of fights before and after leveling, with the same mobs, equipment and buffs? I will try to get this very thing done, when I get a chance. I'm 64 atm, and it should be easy enough to log some fights before and after I ding 65.

I suspect that there is a big difference between a mob that cons red, yellow, even, blue or lower. Again, I don't have any proof of this but it SEEMS to be the case.

[Grimmlokk]

There's no exact formula. If you have respectable, decent gear. Levels will help you most of all. If you have poor gear, gearing up/AAing will help you more. This is not rocket science. Don't make it more complicated than it needs to be. K.I.S.S. and whatnot. You should be able to look at yourself and see what you need.

[faederya]

there is a big difference between a mob that cons red, yellow, even, blue or lower

I think this is the biggest boon. From 58 to 65 I didnt change any gear and I can pull PoV Golems two and three at a time at lvl 65 waiting for slows/mez

I already had pre PoP aa's (CA3,CS3,ND3,PE,AEtaunt) prior to PoP. But at lvl 60 I was owned in PoV and now at 65 its just boring pulling PoV golems and crap in the waste lands.

My magelo isnt anything great but the difference from 61 to 65 has been night and day.

Faederya's Litter Box (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=101135)

My opinion is get CA3 atleast then hit 65 if your atleast PoV, PoS, CoD flagged. Hi jacking thread but COD is an EASY key to get and a GREAT dungeon crawl with insane exp (imho).

[Osowar MT]

It would be cool to see a lev 65 with no aa's and a lev 60 with no aa's in the exact same gear, in a parse with the same mob.

[Smakz]

Less than 4k unbuffed, you shouldnt be in teir2, you get your ass kicked.

I remember back when i dinged 61, didnt have ND3 (didnt have any AA for that matter), I was flagged for PoV/PoS through guildies. Zoned into PoV, got a group, with 3600hp unbuffed. Tried to tank a few EXP mobs, couldnt do it, got my ass handed to me.

Then i thought to myself ... why am i punishing myself like this, i cant tank stuff here. So i went back to Teir 1 and farmed ND3.

Its my advice, as i say it always, stay in Teir1 zones, at 60 or 61 till you have the HP to tank in PoP teir 2+. Sure you can do it with less, but do you want the rep of "paper tank".

Knowing your limits is the best thing you can do for your toon. If you know you really cant handle something, dont try it. Stick to what you can kill comfortably till your ready for bigger shit.

I know my limits, i learned em quick, i wont touch shit i cant tank, and i let my groups know when im there. They say "pull mob_001", i say "I cant tank that, dont pull it", and usually they listen. If they dont, and you die, they know next time, listen to the tank. If you make it clear to your group what you can handle before the pulls start, usually you flow much better with the group, and have a better time at it. The healers know they can keep you alive, and you know your getting EXP, so it all works out.

Trying to go to places you just cant handle, cause its the "in thing" to do, well, your just setting yourself up for failure.

[kragrock]

LOL the secret of my success, picking Rallos Zek as my god

Krag

[bohdan]

Ok... here's my exp on the subject of levels greater then all.

I didn't even bother reading the rest of the posts; but here's how it works out in my eyes and from my experience.

I stopped at 58 to let my cleric catch up in levels a little bit as I dual box and I like keeping my two accounts close in level range.

At 58 I went ahead and got both ND3 and PE. The HP increase from ND3 and PE was better then the hp increase from dinging level 59 and 60. Think of it this way if you have 3500 hp and 180 sta. For dinging level 60 you'll get an extra 180 hp bringing you to 3680 or for getting ND3 first you would get 350 hp bringing you to 3850. I see a bigger increase here by going the aa route no?

In all honesty for most warriors being higher level is more important. Your dmg table changes; you avoidance changes b/c levels are included in the hit/miss ratio (or at least seem to be-that part is not based on my own testing); you will be able to hit more mobs more often due to the level calculations; you will be able to taunt mobs better due to the level calculations; you will resist more spells due to the level calculations (why do you think most guild say min level 55 to attend ToV raids?), fighting in second tier planes you can aa faster then in first tier planes, and obviously the extra dps for being higher level will help you get through the trials to get to the second tier planes.

For me on the other hand; 60 and aa's is the better way to go. I don't have the time or patience to get my 57 cleric keyed for second tier planes; I play at odd hours when my friends and guild are not online and need to be able to dual box and see good exp and well quite frankly tod is not reliable enough to have as the only slow in a second tier planes situation when you're dual boxing and playing both tank and healer. I can still dual box just fine in first tier planes; I still see good exp in old world zones; I can still hold my own when grouped with friends and tanking second tier zones; I can still Main tank if I need too; things work out fine.

Which is better really depends on the person; if anyone else says otherwise they're not taking all sides into account. As I said; my reasons for saying levels better then aa are assumptions; my reasons for saying aa better then levels are based on personal experience. Go out and have fun; that's the bottom line.

Bohdan (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=443031)

[Roma]

Well, I'm the other end of the spectrum. I'm a lvl 65 warrior with 3 AAs that tanks in PoV. I'm right around 3500 hp unbuffed w/ my bow. With that many hps a good cleric can keep up rather well. They just have to start a CH around 60% on an unslowed mob, can go as low as 40% on a slowed mob. Like someone said, if you can find some cheap +hp gear that you can trade off for stats, that is awesome. I was lucky to recieve an uber range slot that adds 150 hps to my total (between hp and sta). I pop that range in and my hp jumps to 3800. My hp still isn't the recommended 4k unbuffed, but I *can* tank in PoV and even in BoT and live with a cleric that has any skill. Its not JUST the gear, if I get low on hp I know to hit that defensive key or call for a spot and I'm not afraid to do so :)

[Groticus]

I think people are missing an inportant fact here. While equipment, HP/AC and DPS are critical factors your skill as a Warrior is what will make or break you. The difference in a few hundred Hps can be over come. If you lack the skills to be successful no equipment or AAs will compensate.

So while there are certain guidelines like 3500+HP for Tier 2, 4k+HP unbuffed for Tier 3, you still have to know how to play your character first and foremost. I certainly do not have uber gear but I do have decent gear and can hold my own even in the Tier 3 areas like BoT. The reason why is that I long ago mastered some key skills. Like knowing when to hit taunt, how to control a mobs facing, when to use /shield and which pets use backstab. These are not the only skills needed but being a Warrior is more than just numbers.

By all means get the AAs and gear you need to be successful but make sure have the skill to go with your equipment. As to AAs being greater or less than leveling I can only say there is a huge difference in my DPS recieved and dealt since I leveled to 65. While I would like to have some of the AA abilities I do not regret leveling to 65 before starting on them with the exception of run 3. Run 3 is just handy to not get as soon as you can.

Thank you Brutaal for the Sig help.

[Brutul]

Originally posted by Zebedi
Paper tank rant on eqclerics (http://eqcleric.gameglow.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15037)

Here's some clerics rant. You do NOT want to be that warrior.

My theory is that post 60 AA>Gear>Levels. If you're still in crusty/FBSS/centi longswords, you don't want to level past 60, PERIOD.

Here's the rant..

I'm a crappy cleric so I can only group with really good tanks.

That said, you don't belong in PoV if you're wearing crusty and dual wielding lams, but I would also not want to group with a cleric that only wants to sit on his ass and push the CH button every 4 minutes. I would hate to be the enchanter in that guy's group.

EDIT: Groticus, change the '+' in your megalo link to an '='

[Khumak]

Look at it this way. We've all seen the difference between a good cleric and a bad cleric. Some of it is dependent on gear/levels, and some on player skill.

For an easy xp camp the primary factors that differentiate a good cleric from a bad one are timing, spell selection, FT, and mana pool. Timing is not gear/level dependent. The other 3 are.

This situation is similar for a warrior. The main things that differentiate a good warrior from a bad one is pulling ability, HP, mitigation/avoidance, and ability to hold aggro. One of those is dependent on player skill (pulling), and all the rest are gear/level dependent.

[Gnomb]

Of course a 65 tank with 3500 hp unbuffed and no AA can tank in PoV.
Will it be an efficient group, i guess not.
It is a difference if i have no chanter and a cleric with no FT items using 400 mana for a complete heal or 400 mana on a supernal remedy that heals 1522 hp in 1.8 seconds (assumed the cleric is at least 61) to keep that tank alive.
I heard complaints often enough that clerics have a small mana pool and have to med every 2nd pull.
But are you surprised if you have to heal a tank with supernal remedy and mana preservation IV items are still very rare (mana preservation III is much more common and works on complete heal).
Personally i stayed in Tier 1 til I had ND3 + AE taunt (i got 60 less than 4 weeks before pop was released) and got my PoV flag in a guild group at 61.
And back then virtue was still very rare and most clerics could only aego you.

[Choppin]

I think people are missing an inportant fact here. While equipment, HP/AC and DPS are critical factors your skill as a Warrior is what will make or break you. The difference in a few hundred Hps can be over come. If you lack the skills to be successful no equipment or AAs will compensate.

If Conan played EQ and was handed a level 65 warrior in full crafted and no AA's, his skill wouldn't make him survive against a_diaku_scout_01. I'm willing to bet that an ebayed 65 warrior with 400 aa's and BF/BoC combo who knew how to press taunt on a mob would be a far more useful tank than Mr. Conan in papermaché armor...

[tarsk]

It's a matter of perspective.

The 'Levels > All' question will have a different answer for everyone, depending on their particular situation.

I'm a 5+K tank unbuffed. Put a Shammy and a Cleric in the group, and I'm nudging 7.5k. Brells from my 60 Paladin BoT (what else are they good for? *ducks*) and I make 7.5 cleanly. That's plenty to be tanking in Valor/Storms/Bastion with.

For me, it depended upon how I ranked my gear next to the other non-uber Warriors that I saw. (I don't bother comparing to ubers, it makes me depressed)

It's hard to put it into words. The way I see it is like an equation:

Gear + Level + AA = Tank.

To tank in certain zones, you need to have a certain value of 'Tank'

Now, if you're lacking in Gear and AAs, you better damn well have a ton of levels to make up for it, and vice versa - If you're lacking in levels, you better be able to make up that deficiency elsewhere.

Skill? Skill doesn't come into it. We're talking about going toe-to-toe with a mob and mitigating it's melee damage (or being able to absorb more). Skill will help you hold aggro better (maybe), it will help you pull better. It will help you be more attentive to the group's needs, and faster on the /shield button. But skill won't mitigate melee damage. Doesn't matter how much skill you've got, an 1100 AC tank will take more damage than a 1700 AC tank, or even a 1200 AC tank (softcap notwithstanding)

So you need to figure out exactly what value of 'Tank' you need to be, and then figure out if your three components (Levels, Gear and AA) add up to that, and if not, figure out which area you're lacking in and work on bringing it up.

edit: Just realized I didn't answer the question, haha.

If you have three tanks, both level 60, both with no AAs and both with exactly the same gear (We'll say it's gear appropriate to an average 60 Warrior in a pre-PoP zone.. Say, full Thurg amor). One tank spends a month working on levels, one tank spends a month working on gear and one tank spends a month working on AAs.

At the end of that week, which will be the better tank in Tier 2?

Well, I have no empirical evidence to back this up, but this would be my thoughts:

Tank A, who worked on levels will find he's lacking in AC a bit. His mitigation won't be too bad, because the mobs will be mostly blue, but thurg armor is more than a touch old these days, and he'll get hit for max damage more often than would be comfortable.

Tank B, who worked on gear will find he probably has the AC and HP that on paper make him a good enough tank, but he'll be taking more hits per fight than tank A, because mobs in Valor will be yellow and red to him.

Tank C, who worked on AAs will probably find he has the HP to match Tank A, but not the AC of tank B - But, to offset that he has much improved avoidance and mitigation ability from his AAs

I think really, it's all fairly even, though I'd say (in my opinion) that all other things being equal, the levels are marginally more important, but I guess as with all things, your mileage may vary....

[Steenky]

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=2344

mana preservation III is much more common and works on complete heal

Just thought that I'd say it isn't effected by focus items.

[Gnomb]

Lol, shouldnt post that early in the morning.
Aye, Mana Preservation doesnt work on Complete Heal, I just replaced my Obulous death shroud because of that.
I mostly use CH/Supernal Remedy/Supernal Elixier and sometimes group elixier.

[Deathbyspam 7th]

but I *can* tank in PoV and even in BoT and live with a cleric that has any skill

Its not necessarily about cleric skill its just a lot of clerics are used to healing uber tanks with a million hp. If you let them know quietly in a tell to begin with that 'I may not be as high as what your used too so may need to heal earlier' that normally woke the clerics up to the fact and they could keep me alive np.

[slyse]

I'm sitting a little under 3600hp unbuffed, and I usually have no problems in valor (somewhere between 5800 and 5900 with virtue/sta/FoS). I can and have tanked with just virtue, just aego, and just sta/FoS. Admittedly, it gets more and more difficult the farther down the list you get, but it's definitely doable (as an aside, if I'm gonna end up with only sta/fos, I try and get another tank to join the group to keep us rolling easily :D )

Edit: I'm 62 with only run 3, btw :p

[Wulfran]

Originally posted by Deathbyspam 7th
Its not necessarily about cleric skill its just a lot of clerics are used to healing uber tanks with a million hp. If you let them know quietly in a tell to begin with that 'I may not be as high as what your used too so may need to heal earlier' that normally woke the clerics up to the fact and they could keep me alive np.

Bingo!

If you are in a tier 2 or 3 zone, there is an expectation of what you bring to the group. If you are NOT up to the average performance level of an area, it is up to you to warn your group-mates so they can compensate as needed.

[Kitre Halfax]

I started tanking in Tier2 immediately upon being flagged for it, at level 61. I had 3 AA at the time, and <3500 hp unbuffed. My profile will show you that I'm not too terribly far advanced from there, but I'm flagged for HoH, BoT, and a few other choice options, and I have no problem tanking in any of those zones. Group composition and skill (does your slower have balls of steel or wet pasta? does your cleric keep people alive, or just ch the tank at 40%?) go farther towards a successful group, at any stage of the game, than a single person's AA/Level.
I should know - I've acquired the nickname Captain Ghetto Group for accomplishing the impossible with the improbable.
Any cleric that rants about tanking ability is probably going to have their own playstyle thrown back in their face. I know I wouldn't care to have a cleric in my group whining about my tanking - I'd kick his/her sorry ass out of the group and get myself a druid or a shaman to keep me alive.

[Zebedi]

Originally posted by Deathbyspam 7th
Its not necessarily about cleric skill its just a lot of clerics are used to healing uber tanks with a million hp. If you let them know quietly in a tell to begin with that 'I may not be as high as what your used too so may need to heal earlier' that normally woke the clerics up to the fact and they could keep me alive np.

Ok, I don't want this to be taken as an attack on anyone, it's not aimed at anyone in particular.

If you find yourself telling the cleric in your group that "Hey, I've got 4.5k hp with your virtue, heal early and often, I'm wearing a paper bag and some saran wrap for armor" then you probably don't belong in that zone as the groups tank.

My opinion-
Gear over the long run is going to give you the biggest boosts. Whether you're talking about aggro from new weapons, or better tanking from new armor. However, it takes awhile to accumulate the good stuff.. it involves raids, lots of raids.. if you're the MT in your guild, you may get outfitted really fast in the best the guild can kill. If you're in a guild like mine which is more relaxed, you'll find yourself gaining gear with all of the other warriors and tanks and rogues (tank parity.. whichever overlord's on can tank anything the guild fights, no "we can't do this because bob the MT isn't on).

Levels will help you by adding a -->small<-- amount of hitpoints, better damage table at 65, and slightly better tanking because you're fighting blue mobs instead of yellow/white. (in PoV anyhow). However, you're going to level yourself right out of decent exp in Tier1 zones (and the rest of the world pretty much).

My example on page one showed that 23 AAs will give that particular fake warrior more HP than leveling to 65. You'll also start to become "Mr Indestructable" in Tier 1 zones.

The real question is, which gives more bang for the buck.

This is my opinion, but I think you're better off being the 500lb gorrilla of Tier 1, than the guy the cleric has to work her ass off to keep alive in Tier 2.

Once you've gotten some basic warrior AAs under your belt, it's good to increase levels and move on to higher Tiers.

[Superchum]

"If you find yourself telling the cleric in your group that "Hey, I've got 4.5k hp with your virtue, heal early and often, I'm wearing a paper bag and some saran wrap for armor" then you probably don't belong in that zone as the groups tank."

It's DREADLANDS ... oh, I'm sorry, it's VALOR ... any gimp with a flag BELONGS there.

/sigh

This smacks of the many posts I used to read at a different web site that said Karnor's Castle was too high a zone for a tank under level 50.

/boggle

[Isk]

It actually does make sense. It's very easy to get flagged for Tier 2 or even Tier 3 zones if you've got other people who'll shoulder most of the load, so to speak. Just because you can walk into a zone doesn't mean you aren't going to be a drain on your group. I was a bit of a drain in BoT with just under 5000 HP, for example. Sure, you can argue that the group can work around ya, and to a certain extent that's true. But seriously, 1 expansion ago, Ssra was considered a "difficult" zone to exp in, where mobs hit for around 300. Now all of a sudden you expect to tank mobs that hit for 500, when you've gained maybe 200 HP from leveling?

I should clarify that there are most definitely things you can do to prepare yourself, as Zebedii said above. AAs help a lot, so does the right gear. You certainly don't have to be "uber" to have good gear.

[Brutul]

My test warrior was flagged for PoV/Storms at level 51 :D. Doesn't mean he can tank there though hehe.

[Spliskin]

Personally I think level> aa.. I saw a big improvement in my tanking by levelling. It only took me two weeks to go from level 61-65 once i was PoV flagged... why not do that then work on aa's?

There's no decision or debate anymore once your 65..you just aa. I certainly have an easier time getting a group then the level 61 that may have twice as many aa's as me.. no one has ever asked my how many aa I have (60) or hp buffed (8300) when they've asked me to tank.

Spliskin

[Zebedi]

Originally posted by Superchum

It's DREADLANDS ... oh, I'm sorry, it's VALOR ... any gimp with a flag BELONGS there.

/sigh

This smacks of the many posts I used to read at a different web site that said Karnor's Castle was too high a zone for a tank under level 50.

/boggle

Hail, Mudflation!

Guess what? At the begining of Kunark KC WAS too high for a level 45 tank unless the group was absolutely hot. Little Timmy the 45 warrior that's running around in crafted and dual weilding yaks will probably get his butt handed to him by the first 10 doggies he chain aggros. Can he do it? Yes. Is he sub-par? You betcha.

Fast foward to today and take a look at what a 45 warrior is running around in. NOW he can tank just fine in KC or Seb.

Also, take this same tank and put him in full bronze with combine longswords at level 55. Is he gonna tank as good as a level 50 warrior with dual lammys and full cobalt?

[Sykeya]

Ok I'll stick my neck out and give you some bones to pick :(

Here's an example of a Warrior still struggling with if levels>AA

so a concrete example for you lot of much more knowledgable peeps

Here is my current gear

http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=124152

I am only flagged for PoV and PoS currently in a mid level guild where I sometimes MT and sometimes not (new to the guild)

Would it be more beneficial (with the same gear) for me to level to 65 and then AA in Tier 2 or do a pack of AA's (have the standard defensive AA's in mind) before kicking on to 65.

And yes I have the same problem LFG for hours it seems in PoV

there pick away, use me as an example .. do your worst :D

Syke

[wandor]

I think Tarsk nailed it perfectly -

Gear + Level + AA = Tank

In PoP you have to have all of the above. I would dtill argue that level > gear or AA, but in many cases you have to have plenty of all 3 or you are going to be paste.

I would say that as long as your gear is adequate for your level, AA will be much less important in Tier 1 and 2. Once you start getting into Tier 3+, then level should be 65 and gear and AA take more importance.

[Zebedi]

*waves his magic wand* Hocus Pocus! Have 12AAs!
http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=660679


You gain 200ish hps for 2 levels.
You gain 400ish hps for 12AAs.

[Fitemore]

Of course, one major relevant part of levels is peoples' perspective of you. I was in BoT, with a warrior friend of mine also LFG in the zone. Him, 61, epic'ed and with a BoC, with better gear than mine. Me, 64, no epic or great agro weapons, a whole 5 AA, worse but still decent gear. I got a group almost as soon as I zoned in, while he was still LFG. Obviously there are benefits of levels beyond the direct statistical gain.

I don't suppose anyone has come up with any parses on level gain yet? (My vain attempt to keep this on topic)

[Eoden]

have leveled from 61 -> 65 almost exclusively in PoV and mostly off the same type of mobs. My AAs and gear has barely changed at all over this time. Will hack my log file up tonight and see if there is any info worth posting.

[Chubz Drago]

If I had no AAs during my late 50's/Early 60's I would stop at Lvl 63 and get about 30 AAs or so, ND3 ,CS3, Run3, Sta/Regen3.

[Smakz]

after all this discussion, it all boils down to ....

What are you most comfortable doing

I was more comfy stopping at 61 and farming ND3 before i went to Teir2, even though i was flagged, i stayed in teir 1.

Some people would rather risk the pain, and jump into PoV/PoS as soon as they can. More power to them.

What do you feel comfy doing.

[proteg]

When I look for a rep cleric, I do "/ all cler lfg". I do the same for other reps as well. aa's don't show up obviously until you hvae a group and they obviously produce well.

If you can't get a PoV/BoT group, getting more levels may help.

I am 62 atm and can only get PoV groups late at night when there aren't always 8 level 65 Warriors LFG.

When you perform capably and are a good MT (either through gear, skill, or aa's) people will remember you and ask you to join them again. A lot of my invites come from ppl I have MTed with before.

At the very least: Levels get you chance to Audition to other players in a group. But for me to perform capably I had already gotten some gear and aa's to make my performance not so gimpy and a drain on manna.

[tarsk]

Just because you *can* tank in a zone, doesn't mean you're an efficient or effective tank. When I first got flagged, i was 62, and had 3600hp unbuffed.

Did I tank in Valor? Yes.
Was I the suckiest manasponge in the zone? Oh hell yes.

Hell, once the mob's slowed, most classes can tank... But that doesn't mean they'll be good at it, or efficient for the group. An averagely equipped monk or ranger these days will have around 3500 unbuffed. Make sure you have more than that, or you might as well let them tank *grins*

[Spliskin]

I"ve decided to quit advocating Level>aa . I like getting groups while all you 61's with more aa's are LFG. Please continue.

[Dima]

I personally think AA/Gear can out tank a pure level warrior with a few AA. I've played my war (Dima, War 62) for 221 played days as of today, and armor is a big thing to me. When AA's came out it wasen't that big to me, but now it's rather big because i'm doing a 20/80 exp curve. If you're 65 and wearing ~50 Equip, you are wrong imo =p Progress with your gear. that's how i'm doing it at least, take a look at my magelo if you want to, use me as a test =p

[tasdamon]

anyone who thinks aa is better then levels clearly has neither.

mitigation is tied to mob con. one level will raise your mitigation quite a bit especially if it raises you a con level with the mobs you are killing (red to yellow, yellow to white, etc..). in addition to that you get more groups, more hp, higher damage tables (which are also tied to mob con), and lots of other benefits.

i have a 65 rogue. i have ND3, PE, and all my offensive aa's. no defensive aa's. i can mitigate damage better then a level 60 warrior without defensive aa's and have done so on multiple occations. I even tanked in HoT on the last pick up raid i lead there. by defensive aa's i mean CA, and CS as PE doesnt add any mitigation or avoidance until you have aa's in CA and/or CS.

level > aa's
im sure anyone who is 65 will agree with me.

[tarsk]

Thanks Wandor - What I was trying to say was that the *sum* of those three qualities makes you into the tank you are.

Where you'd put the emphasis on each factor, well that's what this discussion is about.

Gear needs to be, well, appropriate is the best word I can think of. I don't have 1800 AC and 7K unbuffed, but then I don't tank anything that requires me to have 1800 AC and 7K unbuffed. So, assuming "appropriate" gear, I think levels are still slightly ahead of AAs in terms of importance to the tank equation. A tank that levels from 60 to 61, will probably see much better tanking ability than a tank that spends the same amount of /played time getting defensive AA points.

But, that's just my opinion ... *grins*

[Superchum]

"Was I the suckiest manasponge in the zone? Oh hell yes."

I refer you to the few brave monks who tank in Valor. They were more of a sponge than you.

[Khumak]

I don't think there's any doubt that a level 65 warrior makes a significantly better tank than a level 61 warrior. Some people dispute whether you could get enough AAs at 61 in the same time someone could get 65 to make up for it but I don't think any amount of AAs would make up for that difference.

Putting that aside though, when an xp group is looking for a tank they generally do /who all pally lfg, /who all sk lfg, /who all war lfg. Pretty much in that order. Highest level pally/sk wins if one is available. If not then highest level war wins. That being the case you will get groups faster at 65 than at 61 and thus earn AAs faster as well.

The only valid reason I can see for staying 60 or 61 to work on AAs is if you are in a casual guild, are way ahead in levels compared to the rest of your guild, and want to continue to xp in the old world or tier 1 PoP with your guildmates.

Groups in tier 2+ don't want level 60 tanks. They want 65 tanks. Call it laziness if you want but that's the way most groups are. They want fast, mindless, riskfree xp. Last time I grouped in valor I got invited to tank for a group that already had a level 61 warrior because he couldn't take the hits and couldn't hold aggro.

[tarsk]

Putting that aside though, when an xp group is looking for a tank they generally do /who all pally lfg, /who all sk lfg, /who all war lfg.
Ya know.. I've never seen any evidence of this. We talk about it on here, and by the math, knights do make better exp tanks - And yes, it's a bone of contention.. But out there, on the field, where it really matters.. I've been picked up for random groupage whilst there's still a few 65 knights LFG.

[Phantron]

I suspect a lot of people still believe Warriors are the only ones that can tank, and perception being reality works both ways in EQ, this time to our advantage.

Also don't forget that in the lower end of gear, some mobs really are untankable for the Knights. If a warrior can have problem tanking stuf in PoV, a Knight with similar gear/level will definitely have a harder time.

[tarsk]

*nods*, it's very much gear related. The gap in pure tanking ability (aggro issues notwithstanding) only narrows the higher up the spectrum you go. Certainly for an average War like me, an equivalently equipped knight has far inferior HP

[Donvanlot]

lvl>aa can be true if you have great gear.

At some point good weapons or at least procing weapons help hold aggro a lot. HPs make clerics more efficient and not have heart attacks on every pull before slow.

As someone who quit eq for over a year (at 56) I came back and lvled to 60 very quickly. My hps were around 2800 unbuffed and it showed badly in the better exp camps of PoN/PoI/PoD. I personally hate being in that situation...

Lvl is definitely not all. I think that lvl and good equip is all. AA can make up or add to the good equip. :) At 4k now and want closer to 4500 before I play to much in PoV.

I wouldn't worry about it too much. Do whatever makes you happy. But lvl alone is NOT greater than all...at least for warriors.

Donvanlot
Prexus
Sword of Fate

[Hidaguard]

Um... I feel so... wimpy... Of course, I'm still only lvl 48, but I've only got 2100 or so HP (which, at an earlier dawn of Norrathian civilization was godlike), but my AC is horrid (800 something). I have access to a plat maker, but haven't the foggiest of what to get really, as I concentrate on what I'm doing and not what everybody's wearing. For, let's say... 6k, what sort of things should I get to help out my plight? I'll try to make a magello to make this easier...

[czai]

I got a lot more pickup group offers at 65 than when I was a lower level.

I stopped at 63 to get ND3 because I have a group of friends who always welcome me to their exp groups, so finding exp wasn't a big problem for me. Once I got ND3 I bit the bullet and went straight to 65. Never regretted it.

As for knights vs. warriors, I have been offered pickup groups over knights who were LFG many times.

If you have some AA's you'd like to get, maybe level to 62-63 or so and set a limit for yourself, i.e. stop at ND3 or AET and resume levelling.

Upside to going straight exp is that once you hit 65 you won't have to worry about exping anymore!

[Faeya]

All the principles in this thread relate to all other classes as well, and to guilds as a whole, and at each level range. Excellent thread and very important principles discussed here.

There are "paper" wizards, clerics, bards, chanters. There are "paper" guilds. I've seen whole guilds just LEVEL LEVEL LEVEL LEVEL, then get up to where they think they are gonna raid something, and wipe over and over and over, and be so confused. They followed all the right Safehouse tactics (haha), and still fail. The don't see that it is a combination of gear and level and skill and tactics and having EVERYONE close to each other in level, and communication (!!), etc., etc.

If one of these key componants is missing, the whole thing falls apart. I suspect this is an extention of how encounters are tested during development, since the test teams can gear up any way they want, so they toss on stuff they all think is appropriate for level and tune the encounter. Of course, the VI folks can toss on anything they like, and probably have a distorted and overly flat curve of expected gear. For them, I bet every slot is nicely filled with "level appropriate/encounter appropriate" gear.

In reality, individual players and entire guilds have holes all over where they are not geared up yet, or not talented enough, or have screwy communications, or a few folks are not high enough level. As a result, they fail. One wonders why they are confused by this. Analyze your situation, find the holes, fix them...



Faeya, FV

[DinadassDegladi]

I was messing around with yalp and i had the log from when i was lvl 60 and grinding AA and with a similiar weapon my avg DPS was 45, now at 65 with a similiar ratioed weapon my avg DPS is up to 65 all on blue con mobs.

20 DPS isn't too shabby for just lvling no AA changes.

The lvl 60 weapon was the 35/35 out of storms, and now i use the greatstaff 31/30.

It's not much of a sampling but both were taken while tanking and i grinded out about 9AA's at 60 so that log wasn't terribly small.

Just something to think about, not much hardcore evidence but something definately tangible.

[wandor]

Ok, we can all agree that:

tank = gear + level + AA

That is pretty self evident. The gear part of the equation is also pretty self evident. If you are in mostly crafted and indicolite, you should get some upgrades before leveling past 60. It should be assumed that if you are considering leveling 60+ or AA then you should have cobalt or better and some decent weapons.

That leaves us with 2 variables, AA and level. While there are several good points from either side of the equation, there are a couple of important points that need to be considered.

The amount of exp that is required to level from 60-65 is approximately equal to 18-23aa (average 20aa) depending on who you believe. That means that all things being equal, if 2 tanks start out at 60+0, when Tank A reaches 65+0, Tank B will be 60+20. If the starting level is higher, the number of AAs get smaller.

Staring at 61 = 65 + 0, 61 + 16
62 = 65 + 0, 62 + 12
63 = 65 + 0, 63 + 8
64 = 65 + 0, 64 + 4

The first 6 AA points are basically throw aways. Yes, Run3 rocks, but it does not make you a better tank and that is what we are more interested in, being a better tank. This means that when considering who is the better tank, the maximum number of tanking AAs you will gain in the time it takes to level from 60-65 is 14. That is exactly enough to max 1 arch skill and buy 1 level of the next skill. It's not even enough to get AE Taunt. The difference when considering 2 tanks starting at level 60 is actually very slight, particularly when you consider the innate power gains from leveling that the AA tank does not get (better taunt, better mitigation due to mob con, higher stats caps, better damage tables, etc.)

This of course brings me to another point, which I believe is much more important that the first. This is a little harder to quantify since there is no way to measure perception. I know people are going to argue that they have no problem getting a PoV group at 60-64, but the simple fact is that if a group is LFTank and there are 2 tanks LFG - a 61-64 and a 65, the group is going to take the 65 99% of the time. The group is not going to ask who has more AAs, who has better gear, who has more experience tanking, or who ebayed. The assumption will be that the 65 will be the better tank.

And lastly, something that I have yet to see anyone mention. In general, the AA experience at 65 is going to be better than it is at previous level. I know that mathematically, if 2 people kill the same level mob in the same zone, the lower level person will get a larger amount of exp due to the level bonus. However, at 65 you are much more likely to get a group in a higher level zone where you can fight higher level mobs. This negates the level bonus because the largest determining factor of the amount of experience a particular mob gives is its level. While the lower level person would still get more exp per mob when fighting higher level mobs, the lower level person would likely be sitting at the zone in LFG. Also, it should be considered that a group of 65s is going to kill at a faster rate than a lower group which will also net more exp/hour.

All this boils down one thing. If you pick a number, X, of AA that you want to have before leveling to 65, chances are that it would take you LESS time to level to 65 then do X aas than if you got X aas first, then leveled to 65.

IMO -
If your gear is adequate for your level and you are at least flagged for PoV/PoS then level to 65 first, do AA later.

If your gear is lacking or you are not flagged for at least PoS/PoV, then do AA until you upgrade your gear and get flagged, then switch back and level to 65.

[Brutul]

Great post Wandor. That's the final word as far as I'm concerned :D

[Shikarii]

that should be posted somewhere as "word of god" :D

[Gunrack]

that is one of the BEST explenations I've EVER seen to a question in ANY forum... *bows*

[Tharak]

Well all this sounds great, but there is one part of the equation people are missing.

We'd all like to be 65, and then get a bunch of aa's. However even being flagged for PoV / PoS I hardly have a chance to fight there ever. There usually is a bunch of 65 warriors sitting LFG. If i level much past 61 I will no longer be able to get much xp from teir 1 zones, and will spend all my time LFG in teir 2. I for one am having a difficult time convincing myself to level to 62+ when i will lose all my spots to get any xp. 65 would make me a more powerful; tank no doubt about it. That is however if i could find groups in PoV / PoS. Maybe it gets easier to find a group the closer you get to 65, however what happens on a night when i can;t find a group in PoS or PoV?? Guess i just log off and play something else.

What i am doing is if I can find a group in PoV or PoS i'll go 100% xp. If i get a group in a teir 1 plane (or old world) i'll go 100% aaxp. If I ding 62 and find I can't group in teir2 then i'll just delevel to 61 and do 100% aa from then on. Sure i won;t be uber tank, but i'd rather do something than sit LFG all night because casters would prefer a pet to tank everything. If I find myself getting teir 2 groups then it'll be xp till I get 65.

[wandor]

However even being flagged for PoV / PoS I hardly have a chance to fight there ever.

Exactly. At 61, the list of tanks that a group will take before you is pretty long. Unless you put a group together yourself, don't expect to get many invites in tier 2+.

Catch 22 you say? Can't level to 65 if you don't have a PoV/PoS group but you need level 65 to compete for spots in PoV/PoS. There is actually a simple solution to this problem that many people overlook due to a common misconception. See, most people think that everything turns light blue in the tier 1 planes when you ding 62. This is absolutely false. What people MEAN to say is that the popular easy camps in tier 1 turn light blue at 62.

What back in the day when SolB was the hot spot for exp, KPC was the camp you did in the high 30s to low 40s. When that started to green out, did you ditch the zone? No, you moved to bugs and SS. Same thing in tier 1. In every single tier 1 zone, there are camps with higher level mobs that give considerably better experience than the easy camps near the zone in. Once you ding 62+ it is up to you to move your groups to the better camps.

The beauty of this is that the tank tends to be the limiting factor at the higher level camps. If the tank can handle it, there is no reason that the rest of the group can't. It does require going to more dangerous parts of a zone, but if the exp is good, who cares, that's what the graveyard is for. Instead of doing the zone mobs in PoI, go inside the factory and exp there. If you are not flagged to open the door, get someone to open it for you. Hunt the mephits in the underwater cave in PoN. In PoD go inside the castle and do the mobs near the Grummus area. In each of these zones, the common mobs range in level from 50-56ish. Once you get to the harder camps the mobs jump in level up to 57-62. Those camps are blue to 65.

There are plenty of exp camps that give good exp all the way to 65. If you can't get a tier 2 groups, you can still get good dark blue exp in tier 1 so why limit yourself. Until you reach 65 there is always going to be the possibility that there will be a higher level tank to compete against.

I hesitate to say this, but I am sure that every 65 on this board will confirm its true - you don't know what you are missing until you ding 65, the difference is tremendous.

[Tharak]

Well I would agree there is some great camping to do in teir 1, however unless you bring your own group don;t expect to be working those camps. It really depends on your server, but on mine PoD castle is a ghost town as are those other camps you mentioned also. There is also one other problem i find with advocating dinging level 65 before any aa. One of the things i struggle with is holding aggro in teir 2 zones. I have decent weapons for what my guild is capable of but to be honest i could really use AE taunt badly. I'd like to be able to grind ND3 and area taunt then level. At least i got a backup. However as it stands right now, i'll get whatever i can get at 61. If i can;t get a great camp i work on aa (at least it feels like I am making progress), If i get a great camp i work levels. Maybe once i ding 62 it'll be a little easier . . . maybe not. At this point i'd rather ding the levels, but who wants to be a gimp in a teir 2 zone either. I can do the other camps if i can drag people to them, however it's kinda get whatever you can get on my server.

[Phantron]

The white con + bonus significantly outweighs the extra XP share you get for being a high level character.

For example, a level 64 mob gives around 1/2 blue AA for a full group of level 65s. A level 68 mob gives almost 1 blue to the same group. Using XP = level^2, you get that a level 68 gives around 10% more xp than a level 64. This implies that fighting red gives you roughly double the XP. So a level 61 in a group of all level 65s fighting a level 64 mob would get about 15% of the XP instead of 16.6% if he was level 65, which represent a decline of 5% XP, but he gets double the XP because the mob cons red.

Of course, this example is a bit extreme, but if you're not afraid of being passed up in a group for leeching, you're always better off to be lower level so that the mob cons white+ then being level 65 so they con blue. Not that I support this kind of behavior at all.

[tarsk]

I've never found it hugely noticable.

My cleric is lvl 47.

If I solo kill a blue con in DL, I get 1% exp.
If I group with my 65 War and kill a red con in PoN, I get 1% exp.

*shrug*

[Fitemore]

Very nice explanation, Wandor. I kinda would love that added to a FAQ somewhere, so people have an instant response to that eternal question of "Should I AA or level?" Not this whole thread, just your post :)

[wandor]

Let me also bring up another point that many people overlook ...

I have decent weapons for what my guild is capable of but to be honest i could really use AE taunt badly.

Guess what? For an exp group -

level 65 taunt > AE taunt

OMG! HERETIC!

Seriously, think about it for a second. AE taunt has a long as refresh. You get a multi pull that is pounding on the casters and you AE taunt, you are now screwed when you get an add 20 seconds later. At least with normal taunt you get a shot every 8 seconds.

I know a lot of people have provided anecdotal evidence that taunt at 65 seems to work a lot better, but don't count on this as proof. Rather, just consider the fact that at level 65 you can taunt mobs higher level than you can at previous levels. That in itself if a partial fix to taunt.

Also keep in mind that in the time you would spend getting AE taunt at any level other than 65, you could have leveled to 65 and started working AAs to get to AE taunt. At no point in time level 60+ can you get AE taunt in less net exp gain that it takes to get to 65+3aa or more.

[Varatho]

IIRC they removed the "can only taunt mobs less than your level" thing. Not that it applied for level 60 toon in the first place.

[Korak Sarathai]

IIRC they removed the "can only taunt mobs less than your level" thing. Not that it applied for level 60 toon in the first place.

The point is that your chances of a successful taunt are much higher if the mob is blue than if it is yellow or red.

[wandor]

Well I would agree there is some great camping to do in teir 1, however unless you bring your own group don;t expect to be working those camps. It really depends on your server, but on mine PoD castle is a ghost town as are those other camps you mentioned also.

As I stated previously, the difficulty in these camps is related to the tanks ability to take the increased damage. If you can handle this camp, so can your group. If you have a group, take them to these camps, they will love you for it since the exp will be considerable better. In just about every case, the mobs at the harder camps hit harder and are higher level, but do not have a significantly higher amount of hit points so your kill rate should not suffer much if at all.

There is also the added bonus that the camp is ALWAYS open. If anyone complains about wiping out, remind them that there is always the GY to fall back on if the camp is too hard for the group. If the group does indeed haldle the camp, you will end up with a ton more exp and yet another camp you can add to your list to check when a zone is busy.

[Tharak]

Wandor,

i agree with you, believe me. I'd rather be 65 than 61 with some aa's. Pushing through 61 to 65 have been rough lately cause all the level 53-55's in the zone. I am fortunate to find a good group in a teir 1 plane, hardly ever do i get a good enough group for the better camps. Sometimes it happens, and when i get a good camp i go 100% xp. I just like to see some progress made (nothing is as depressing to spend 4 hours grinding and come away with 1.5 blue towards you next level). I just base what i want to do on however i am feeling that particular evening and depends on the camp. Whenever my guild does old world stuff it's alwayts on 100% aaxp. Rest of the time i really try to have it on regular xp if i can stand the pain (of watching my xp bar never move).

I still think there is a catch 22 here. Way back in some of the original posts a lot of people were mandating level 65 with 4k+ hitpoint unbuffed as the requirements for teir 2. Yet how the heck are you supposed to get to teir 2 when things go light blue in 62?! Sure there is a few camps left in teir 1 you can do but you have to admitt the pickings get slimmer and slimmer the higher you level. I also find it's not always the warrior (me) limiting the camp, in the case of PoD castle it's the chanter being able to mez a mob. I've tanked in teir 2, and i am not a total mana spounge bigger camps in teir 1 should be ok. Usually at the time I play at night I am glad to find people playing at all (ya take what you can get). last night I did PoD LCY with a couple others and no slower other than my truncheon of doom. Impossible no, but certainly it got rough. For my buck i am trying for 65, if the only camp i can group in on that night is crap xp then i do aa. Then again i guess PoP has spoiled us too, i vividly remember grinding for 6 hours in sebelis and walking away happy when I had 3 blues done, now if we spend that much time in a plane we want to walk away with 50% of our level hehehe.

[Haass]

You can bring all the data you want to the table, and it still doesn't change the fact that 65 irreparably changes the game for you.

Do you like hunting in outdoor zones, of which you have approximately 2-3 to choose from? Then 65 is fine. If you don't, aren't in an uberguild where you need 65, and don't play often enough to need level 65, then level 65 is going to be a huge detriment to you.

If you need level 65 to do things (IE : elemental planes), then yes, get level 65. It will help you out a lot. But lets be serious for a minute. most people aren't in big guilds. most people aren't gonna ever see Rallos Zek (okay, the 200 man gimp squad is probably the exception). Most people aren't going to get as much out of level 65 as they're going to lose. You lose EVERYTHING in any expansion other than PoP. Need to finish up your VT key? At 65, all the camps are green, you don't even get XP for the time you're wasting. At 65, EVERY dungeon is green. Does that bother you? Do you enjoy hunting in a variety of zones? Do you have a family type guild that just does stuff just to do cool stuff? Level 65 hurts that, and it hurts that badly.

Yes, level 65 will make you a more powerful character, at the expense of eliminating most places you can get XP at. Do you need the power that badly?

[Tharak]

Didn't SoE admitt they needed to look into the level disparity thing with PoP levels now? I remember reading something about that. I would hope so, would certainly make 65 more appealing if i can hunt somewhere besides PoP and get even marginal xp. Seems like when PoP came out we can level really fast, but the loot from PoP totally blows. Now i either camp xp, aaxp, or loot because hard to find a camp that combines all 3 at level 61.

[Haass]

Heh, SOE needs to look into a lot of things, doesn't mean they do, and doesn't mean they ever will.

Right now they're probably working on another expansion for the masses. They couldn't give a rats ass about PoP, it'll be old in a few months.

Regardless, that's the last I'll speak on the topic. I'll admit, there's a good chunk of posters on here that need to be 65 for guild requirements. But just like EQ, i'm sure the vast majority of the lurkers here don't need to be 65, and being 65 is just going to kill the game for them. Some people work odd hours, some people just want to go places and do things and see stuff and leveling is just an added bonus. That bonus no longer exists at 65.

You can solo for XP at 60. I know of places that are completely empty that you can solo at if you have decent gear and a bandage press. You can't do that after 60. You've gotta trod to POS or POV and hope someone needs you, and if you don't, you're done for the nite, you're not going to accomplish shit in the way of advancing your character. Remember that before you follow the lemmings over the ledge to 65. It may not be what is best for YOU, and only YOU can tell that.

[wandor]

Actually Haass, I would would disagree with your point. Yes, it is undeniable that a lot of the old world greens at 65, but the trade of is that you can steamroll through the majority of the content with easy at 65.

Need to camp shard? No problem, at 65 you can solo 6/10 shards pretty easily and the other 4 can be duo'd.

Need to camp an emp ring? No problem, you can duo/trio all but the insignia and even that is one groupable pretty easy.

Want to farm armor for your guild? No problem, ToV at 65 is basically an exp zone now.

Need to farm plats? No problem, you can duo any camp you want in Seb, many can be soloed pretty easy.

I would also say that there are lot more than 2-3 choices for good exp in PoP. You make it sound like people in family type guilds can't get flagged passed PoS/PoV. Quite to the contrary, it has never been easier to get flagged for many high level zones. With the gear that is out now, at level 65 just about any group can brute force the trials. Once in PoS/PoV you can flag entire guilds in a fraction of the time it used to take. BoT, HoH, CoD, PoTactics are all questable and 1 person doing the quest results in 6 flags now. I would say that getting 65 opens up many more exp spots than it closes.

The old world is a waste of time to hunt in for anyone 50+. Mudflation has made any of the tier 1 planes doable for a mid 50s group and even at a slow kill rate, the net exp gain eclipses any old world zone that the same group would be capable of.

At 65, EVERY dungeon is green. Does that bother you? Do you enjoy hunting in a variety of zones? Do you have a family type guild that just does stuff just to do cool stuff? Level 65 hurts that, and it hurts that badly.
Just because you are 65 doesn't mean you can't do this stuff still. It just means that you will have an easier time doing it. Does getting 65 trivialize stuff that a family type guild would do? Not really, most family guilds will have a couple 65s and some scattered 60+ with everyone else being under 60. Killing Gore will still take a raid for of 30+ and they will still have a great time doing it, but their chances for success are higher with a few 65s.

Also, EVERY dungeon is not green. Lower Sebilis is still dark blue at 65, as is ToV, the harder camps in Ssra, most of the Deep, and harder camos in Akheva. If you enjoy dungeon crawls, there are still plenty of places to go and they still give exp, but they don't give as good of exp as any PoP zone - and that is regardless of level. When I want to get my 55 war exp I don't bother going to an old world dungeon with a ZEM of 100 even though I can obliterate the zone, I got to PoP zones with a ZEM of 140.

If the reason you give to not get 65 is that you are cutting off most places you can exp at, the I would say that that is an invalid arguement since you actually cut off the zones you mean at level 61/62.

[Mokor]

would i like to be 65 sure everyone prolly would

do i currently need to be 65 nope

would i leave 90% of my friends and guildies if i went past 60 and moved on to pov/pos yep

can i sit back and party with my buds and slowly crank out aa yep

the experiance you have in eq is up to you.

[Haass]

Well Wandor, that's a nice argument, but ya know what, steamrolling zones isn't fun.

If it was, i'd still be at Orc 1, killing shit in 1 hit. Content that's difficult is fun, and there's a lack of that at 65.

[Steenky]

Content that's difficult is fun, and there's a lack of that at 65.

I agree with this to an extent, but wouldn't that also involve having the equipment and AA's to go with that statement?

If I was to steamroll up to 65 with my current equipment ( see sig ) I could imagine that a good bit of PoP content would still be challenging to say the least.

I've gotten run3 now, and I have turned exp back to regular 100%. I'm going to try the waters out shortly.

[czai]

I enjoy "steamrolling" Seb and similar zones on rare occasion.

If I didn't want to "steamroll" it, I'd play my alt 55 monk.

In the end, however, it all boils down to playing style. Even if Warrior A *can* get x amount of AA in the time it takes for Warrior B to get from 60-65, it doesn't mean that it'll actually happen. While Warrior B is yelling for a group, Warrior A could be in a variety of older-world zones cranking out AA. For a lot of people, who don't have big chunks of time to dedicate to gaming, this may be a better option.

There are a lot of times I wish I could go to some zone like Velks and solo for a few blues of AA, but being 65, I can't. It doesn't mean I regret having levelled, because there are perks as well as drawbacks since I generally don't have to wait that long for a group.

Would be nice if they put in a few zones where I could concievably duo with a druid friend though. Kinda miss those days.

[Kilaara]

Hm and what do that warrior do with his amount of AAs in Level 60?

There will come the time that he decided to level to 65 and then youre argument failes, cause then he will stand and LfG the Time cause enough 65ers are around.

This will happen to the warr who fist goes to 65 as it will happen to the warr with 30 AAs who then will go to 65. No differenz between them.

[Shjekai]

Highest tier zone I can hunt in is PoS/PoV. At 65 in a group of 3 I get about 1% a kill. At 62 it's 2-3% a kill.
I lost 180ish hps going from 65 - 62. I am not killing things 2 - 3 times slower than when I was 65. 3 levels did not make me that much better of a warrior. I certainly wasn't killing mobs 2- 3times faster or living 2 - 3 times longer in a rough fight. 65th is not worth it for me.

[Brutul]

If you deleveled to 40 you could get great exp in Guk!

[Haass]

Well that's about the biggest bunch of bullshit i've ever read.

No shit you can get better xp in guk at 40. The point is that at 65, there is a significant decrease in the amount of places you can get XP as opposed to 60-62.

Do you gain enough power in three levels to be worth the MASSIVE LOSS OF ZONE OPTIONS that you incur?

If guk goes green at 50, who gives a shit. You've gained enough power being 50 over being 40. If you're not MT'ing fuckin fennin ro do you need to be 65 or can you settle for 62 and get by and people to go more places and get XP faster in those spots?

A level 60 gains XP something on the order of 50% faster than a level 61 killing the same shit in chardok. What level are you better off being for the XP grind? Not 61, that's for goddamned sure.

[Brutul]

It was a joke, go take your pills.

[Klotar]

I'd always placed levels over gear with all of my characters, and so all of them are similarly equipped (lower mid-level gear) and levelled to 60 [at the time] as quickly as possible, gear/AA be damned. Up until now, you couldn't have budged me an inch from that line of thinking.

This thread has some VERY thought-provoking points, and it's hard to disagree with the logic. Don't get me wrong, at the extremes (naked 65 war vs. uber geared 55 war is extreme) I knew my logic didn't work, but on average and on the whole I firmly believed level > gear/AA.

Maybe I have been carried by my guildies and friends more than I previously thought (and so sheltered from criticism in pickup groups). Food for thought for me.

[Shikarii]

/slides haass a big mug of ale :D

laugh man

[Haass]

My doctor said not to mix my pills with ale.

[Korak Sarathai]

My doctor said not to mix my pills with ale.

Then stick with the sauce, man.

*passes Haass another beer*



As to the issue at hand, I want to give you a little support Haass. There are some pretty substantial conditions to be met before agreeing that staying level 62, or, dare I say it, even level 60 is preferable to leveling to 65. Even so, I do think there is a case to be made that staying level 60 is preferable under the following very specific conditions:

1. The overwhelming majority of your friends are not going to be above 60 in the near future.

2. Your guild is still raiding Velious era content.

3. Your gear is not up to par for tanking in tier 2 planes.

4. You are a solo/duo player and are very interested in gaining your AAs.

5. You are a freak for dungeons and abhor outdoor zones.

If most or all of those things are true, you may (not will) get more enjoyment out of EQ by staying at the level 60/61 line (61 for raids, delevel to 60 for xp grinding).

That said, warriors who want max power in min time in order to join or further high end raiding guilds should pursue level 65 before anything other than possibly run3, althouth that is debatable now that every damn zone is outdoors.

[wandor]

I would agree with you except on one point Korak -

2. Your guild is still raiding Velious era content.

I would list this as one of the top reasons to get 65 ASAP. If your guild is raiding Velious, then the biggest single boost in power your guild is going to get is a 65 war MT. More than any other class, warriors will determine what level of mob a guild can take down. You can make up for lack of mana or DPS with numbers, but if you don't have at least 1 warrior that can tank a mob, you simply aren't going to kill it with any consistency if at all. A guild doing Velious content will benefit endlessly from having a 65 warrior.

[Zerar_Povar]

Actually I find that run3 has been invaluable to me. I don't have to get sow'd, or keep my jboots in an open slot of my inv. and click them just to keep up with the 99.99% of my guild that has run3. While many zones are out doors, and run speed can be modified... Vex Thal is not, ToV is not, Torment, Tactics, Sol Ro... are not either, and believe me, you DO NOT want to fall behind in those zones. I hate falling behind when I am pay attention just cause my furry legs won't carry me fast enough. I didn't have Run 3 till I got to about 62, but that's only cause I had to get 60 before I could apply to my current guild (they require 65, but I am a RL friend of a few members so I got to apply early.) and once I got that, I went full on XP... but refused to ding 65 before I got Baron title. Got that with only about 6% level to go to 65. :D Got my 65.... got my buffer... and now all I have to worry about is AA's xp wise. :D

Veh Thal week is my favorite week of the month! :D

[65 Overlord] Baron Zerar Za'Guerra (Vah Shir)
<Forces Unknown> Povar